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#1419880 - 04/19/10 08:39 AM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: David-G]
cinstance Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 104
After reading this thread, I held a flashlight and inspected my Kawai RX-3. To my relieve, zero cracks.

Speaking from the view of a mechanical engineer. As long as there is a crack, the stress is going to concentrate on it and the defect is going to develop further until it fails, which is a rather common knowledge. I would insist on a full refund.

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#1419899 - 04/19/10 09:23 AM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: David-G]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3243
It is HIS second opinion, not mine. I can not say if I trust him as I have not yet met him.

Would it matter to me what his second opinion determines? Are you suggesting that he can retract his offer (It seems to me that his offer would still be standing even if his second opinion would agree with the dealer?)
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#1419902 - 04/19/10 09:25 AM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: David-G]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3243
"With the money of the refund you can look around, try the same piano at a few stores, they do not vary that much! You now know what you like and dislike so the search does not have to take such a long time....."

I agree partially to that I now know what I want and that I may be able to find it quicker now. The problem is that I already heard some points for improvement on my current piano and that the next one I like most likely will be out of my budget...


Edited by wouter79 (04/19/10 11:24 AM)
_________________________

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#1420062 - 04/19/10 02:42 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: wouter79]
maserman1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 147
Loc: U.K.
Wouter79.
I don't understand why you are so hesitant. There should not be ANY cracks from the bridgepin holes. You have had some very good advice here - take the refund and run.
_________________________
Bechstein C 1890, Rebuilt
Bechstein V 1888, Project

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#1420185 - 04/19/10 06:40 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: maserman1]
Robert Di Santo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/18/10
Posts: 92
Loc: United States
Cracks and the like due to aging limit the woods performance over time, not the case with granite bridges.
_________________________
Robert B. Di Santo
StoneTone®
Music of the earth®

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#1420210 - 04/19/10 07:21 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: Robert Di Santo]
David-G Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/17/06
Posts: 1227
Loc: London
"Are you suggesting that he can retract his offer (It seems to me that his offer would still be standing even if his second opinion would agree with the dealer?)"

I have absolutely no idea. But can you be 100% certain that he won't? If he detects your hesitancy, I am afraid that he might retract the offer.

"I agree partially to that I now know what I want and that I may be able to find it quicker now. The problem is that I already heard some points for improvement on my current piano and that the next one I like most likely will be out of my budget..."

While I understand your feelings, you will forgive me for observing that this does not seem a very convincing reason for keeping a faulty piano. (And of course, a point of improvement on your current piano would be an intact bridge.)

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#1420237 - 04/19/10 08:25 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: Robert Di Santo]
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
Cracks and the like due to aging limit the woods performance over time, not the case with granite bridges.


No offense dude, but there is a poster here trying to sort out a very troubling situation and I hardly think a plug for your miraculously ground-breaking granite bridges is appropriate.

To the OP: what I'm getting so far from this thread is that you really like your Petrof and if there is any way to NOT get rid of your piano you would rather go that route. Most of the posters here have good intentions but, when it comes down to it most of us (RPT's aside) are giving advice based on nothing more than common sense backed by little or no real expertise in these matters. I think what you need (to restate what's been said already) is the opinion of a truly impartial expert (ie RPT). Piano enthusiasts (ie owners and players) are quite often neurotic by nature and not the best sounding board for these types of matters.
Good luck. I really do hope you end up happy and satisfied at the end of this ordeal.

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#1420718 - 04/20/10 05:15 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: AJF]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3243
Thanks for your input.

AFJ, Yes I really don't like the prospect of returning this piano.

I agree that a solid advice from a good technician would help. I was unfortunate to hit upon a bad technician.

An RPT (Dale Fox) also responded here and he seemed to agree that "Even if the piano were on a dealers floor for several years, you purchased a new piano and are entitled to have one free of flaws." And this is not a simple cap replacement since there is no cap. I conclude that also he suggests replacement.
_________________________

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#1420740 - 04/20/10 06:05 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: wouter79]
Stearman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/18/09
Posts: 63
Loc: Montana, USA
Wouter, I understand your hesitation. My Steinway is 97 years old, and is all original. Lots of hairline cracks in the bridge. My piano has a beautiful sound, that being said, when it gets out of tune, and a note does not play perfect, I wonder, is it because of the bridge? Even though you are enjoying your piano right now, and love the sound, it will go out of tune, and you will worry about the bridge pins moving as the culprit. My old girl has been around the block a time or two. Hell it was build before air conditioning and humidifiers. It has had a tough life and some dings are expected, that being said, if I was to buy a rebuilt or new piano, I would not accept any cracks no mater how good it sounds. I guess I just would not want to keep wondering if the bad sounding note is the result of cracked wood.

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#1420745 - 04/20/10 06:19 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: Stearman]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4393
Loc: San Jose, CA
"Cracks and the like due to aging limit the woods performance over time, not the case with granite bridges."

I should show you my kitchen counter. Two years old, granite; cracked. The installers' fault of course, not the granite's. Still, even the hard rocks can suffer stress fractures... and if it had looked like this on Day One, there wouldn't have been a Day Two.
_________________________
Clef


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#1420763 - 04/20/10 06:48 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: wouter79]
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: wouter79
Thanks for your input.

AFJ, Yes I really don't like the prospect of returning this piano.

I agree that a solid advice from a good technician would help. I was unfortunate to hit upon a bad technician.

An RPT (Dale Fox) also responded here and he seemed to agree that "Even if the piano were on a dealers floor for several years, you purchased a new piano and are entitled to have one free of flaws." And this is not a simple cap replacement since there is no cap. I conclude that also he suggests replacement.






So what's the current plan of action?

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#1421049 - 04/21/10 03:47 AM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: AJF]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3243
Current plan is as follows

1. The dealer's technician will have a look at it to give the dealer a second opinion. I will take his opinion with a big grain of salt because his opinion likely is biased towards the dealer's opinion.

2. I have asked two technicians here whether they have expertise on bridge issues. I hope one responds soon and has time soon to get his input too.
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#1422811 - 04/23/10 04:48 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: wouter79]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3243
UPDATE

Today the technician sent by the dealer was here.

He tuned my piano, was badly needed :-)

Basically his opinion was in line with the dealer's.

He said he had seen many pianos with cracks
He thought the cracks in my piano were caused when the pins were hammered into the bridge.
He is sure that these cracks will not grow further and that this does not affect the sound.
He thinks these cracks are too small to consider a repair. They are too small to glue and seem not worth to take the piano apart which would be necessary for a recap. Besides a recap would change the sound which is not desirable either.
He said that these cracks look superficial
He also said that even if the pins would be loose the strings would pull the pins tight
He even went to the same extreme as the dealer: only if the pins would be so loose that they changed orientation then this would be an issue.


Again, I take this with a large grain of salt.
I will await my second technician's report.
_________________________

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#1422931 - 04/23/10 08:33 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: wouter79]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10340
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Go bsck to the store. Look at all other grands on the sales floor. See how many have similar cracks.

Better yet, take up the dealer's offer for a full refund. You can always find another that sounds as good and is more flaw-fee.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#1423084 - 04/24/10 02:21 AM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: AJF]
Dale Fox Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 1053
Loc: Nor California Sacramento area
Originally Posted By: AJF
Originally Posted By: wouter79
Thanks for your input.


An RPT (Dale Fox) also responded here and he seemed to agree that "Even if the piano were on a dealers floor for several years, you purchased a new piano and are entitled to have one free of flaws." And this is not a simple cap replacement since there is no cap. I conclude that also he suggests replacement.






So what's the current plan of action?


Just to be clear, concerning what you have in quotes above. I did mention that most Petrofs do not have bridge caps. You attributed someone else's advice as coming from me. My only comment on the topic was the second post on page three. I try to stick with facts in evidence not legalities I am unqualified to comment about.

BTW, there is nothing simple about a cap replacement. Below is the full comment I made in context.

I find this to be the most reasonable reply concerning your piano.

Russell represents some very high quality pianos and understands the warranty world very well.

I may be mistaken but I believe the last Petrof I had in the shop for repair had a solid, un-laminated bridge with a cap only at the high treble section. It also had a fair amount of small surface cracking but as it was getting a new soundboard and new bridge caps that was not a major concern. That particular piano started it's career in Taiwan then went to St Louis and then Arizona and finally Sacramento. I dare any bridge capping or soundboard to survive those humidity extremes untouched.


Edited by Dale Fox (04/24/10 02:24 AM)
_________________________
Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding

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#1423089 - 04/24/10 02:36 AM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: Dale Fox]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3243
Steve,

I did that, see my post #1419529 - 04/18/10 04:05 PM above.

"You can always find another that sounds as good and is more flaw-fee."

Yes but this was the first one that also was within my budget.


Dale Fox,

Please correct me if I understood you wrong. You wrote "I find this [master88's post] to be the most reasonable reply concerning your piano.". From this I understood that you were mostly agreeing with master88er, who said that "Even if the piano were on a dealers floor for several years, you purchased a new piano and are entitled to have one free of flaws."
_________________________

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#1423182 - 04/24/10 08:57 AM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: wouter79]
Dale Fox Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 1053
Loc: Nor California Sacramento area
Wouter79,

it was the entire context of the post by master88 that I was referring to. Legal requirements allow the manufacturer a broad palette of choices when dealing with warranty issues. At their discretion they could choose to repair, rather than replace. This repair could take the form of anything from a simple epoxy repair to a complete replacement. To suggest, as many have, that you are guaranteed a replacement by the manufacturer is just not required, unless you have a special clause written into your purchase contract.

As it is, it sounds as if the dealer is stepping up when he offered to replace the piano. As to the severity of the problem, I don't get extremely alarmed at what I've seen from the posted pictures. I've seen worse in much higher priced instruments, straight from the factory. I get alarmed when I see cracks that are in line with the neighboring bridge pins and show signs of "connecting the dots".

The following is the rest of 88's post.


""Nearly every manufacturer covers manufacturing defects, and from the photo it appears that it should be covered. However, if it is simply the cap of the bridge, you would be entitled to have it repaired by the factory or their representative, not necessarily have the piano replaced. Most warranties allow the manufacturer to repair or replace at their discretion.

I would suggest that you hire a certified RPT in your area to inspect the piano for you, if for no other reason than to have a straightforward analysis of the issue. Additionally, if the RPT finds that you have little to worry about, and that a simple fix (such as epoxy) is warranted, you will sleep much easier.""
_________________________
Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding

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#1423215 - 04/24/10 10:04 AM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: Dale Fox]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3243
Dale,

Thanks for the explanation. I understand that there are more ways for the dealer to fix this issue than replacement.

"As it is, it sounds as if the dealer is stepping up when he offered to replace the piano. "

No, he did NOT offer to replace the piano. He offered a refund.

"I get alarmed when I see cracks that are in line with the neighboring bridge pins and show signs of "connecting the dots". "

Like this? (the a6 in my piano). I did not notice other places where the cracks connect 2 dots.

_________________________

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#1423240 - 04/24/10 10:55 AM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: wouter79]
acortot Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 423
Loc: Italy
they sure are using cheap wood these days from the looks of it..

yikes!
_________________________
rhythm must be inborn

An Article on the unusual makeup of original Pleyel hammers, during Chopin's lifetime:

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#1423261 - 04/24/10 11:31 AM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: acortot]
fe2008 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Brazil
I still don't know why you're with this piano yet. Srs.
It sounds clear to me: If a dealer sends "his" tech of course they'll have the same opinion.
Sorry man, but it seems they're fooling you. If you ask for a refund I am not so sure if it would be a smooth negociation.


Edited by fe2008 (04/24/10 11:52 AM)
_________________________
Roland FP7F

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#1423276 - 04/24/10 11:48 AM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: fe2008]
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3405
Loc: US
If you can get the refund, TAKE IT!

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#1423369 - 04/24/10 02:05 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: sophial]
Roy Rodgers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 344
Loc: Ranger, Texas
Those cracks will continue to grow, and the tuning stability will become severely limited. The pins will move. They are already showings signs they are moving now.

Since that bridge is not capped, the cracks will spread through out the bridge wood. I'm not sure even an epoxy repair would stop that from happening.
_________________________
Tuning and repairing pianos since 1981 in Ranger, Tx. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Roys-Piano-Service/173273022711505

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#1423440 - 04/24/10 04:12 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: Roy Rodgers]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3243
Monday I let my (second) technician look at it. To be sure I removed the dealer sticker from the piano... Then I will have to make up my mind.
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#1423452 - 04/24/10 04:29 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: wouter79]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3243
Dale,

Thanks for the additional information.

Can you tell if these cracks need treatment in any case? Are these cracks going to grow as people here belief? The dealer's technician said that they will not grow anyway, even without treatment.
_________________________

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#1423527 - 04/24/10 06:50 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: wouter79]
Dale Fox Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 1053
Loc: Nor California Sacramento area
Originally Posted By: wouter79
Dale,

Thanks for the explanation. I understand that there are more ways for the dealer to fix this issue than replacement.

"As it is, it sounds as if the dealer is stepping up when he offered to replace the piano. "

No, he did NOT offer to replace the piano. He offered a refund.

"I get alarmed when I see cracks that are in line with the neighboring bridge pins and show signs of "connecting the dots". "

Like this? (the a6 in my piano). I did not notice other places where the cracks connect 2 dots.




Thanks for the clarification on what the dealer offered. I didn't read every post apparently.

And yes, like that.
_________________________
Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding

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#1423732 - 04/25/10 01:51 AM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: wouter79]
fe2008 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Brazil
every single person in this thread is telling you to return this piano... I'm not sur why are you still asking for more opinions.
_________________________
Roland FP7F

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#1423802 - 04/25/10 07:58 AM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: fe2008]
Sparky McBiff Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 1112
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
Originally Posted By: fe2008
every single person in this thread is telling you to return this piano... I'm not sur why are you still asking for more opinions.


My thoughts exactly.
I just purchased a brand new grand myself and if upon delivery I found the same sort of cracks that you did you better believe that I would be looking to return it in a flash.
The bottom line is you just don't know if those cracks are going to get worse over time.
I don't see why you are willing to risk that chance.
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#1423811 - 04/25/10 08:17 AM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: fe2008]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3243
"I'm not sur why are you still asking for more opinions."

I'm not really asking for more opinions here as it is pretty clear what the verdict here is. It is just keeping all here up to date.

"every single person in this thread is telling you to return this piano..."

It's a bit less black and white (I also received PMs with slightly less black/white opinions). But yes the general consensus is that I should return it.

On the other hand all three experts that came here and judged in person thought this piano is in good shape. But only the first one was independent of the dealer and I have slight doubts even about that. Therefore I decided to have a second technician have a look at it in person.
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#1424051 - 04/25/10 05:56 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: wouter79]
rodmichael Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 334
Loc: Maryland
I've been watching this thread for a couple of weeks it seems, and I guess I have the same question everyone else has: What are you waiting for? I have no doubt what I'd do, and I don't believe I'd have needed 2 weeks and 50 outside opinions to make the decision.

I believe there's information that you haven't revealed to the respondents on this thread. I say go to a quiet room and make your decision. Cease the public agonizing for such an obvious (to the rest of us) decision. Move on.

BTW, I don't want to be kept up to date on this. The dealer offered a refund. That's all we need to know. What your decision is is of no further interest except perhaps to you. And I'm not sure of that.
_________________________
Rod Michael
Mason & Hamlin AA, SN 93018
Yamaha CGP-1000, SN UCNZ01010
Zoom Q3



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#1424140 - 04/25/10 08:22 PM Re: small cracks at bridge pins [Re: rodmichael]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10340
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
+1

And considering that the re-sale value would be negatively affected, acepting the refund or exchange is a no-brainer.

Why are we here?

Let this thread die!


Edited by Steve Cohen (04/25/10 08:23 PM)
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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