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#1418533 - 04/16/10 02:25 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: pppat]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20749
Loc: Oakland
All recordings are dubious. Did you have any specific objection to the one that I did post? I do not have the equipment to make recordings other than with my laptop. There are other recordings, but I do not have the rights to them. I could have a recording made at one of the schools I tune at, but that is difficult to arrange. However, the guy who played the Chromatic Fugue may make some recordings there sometime. It is the same piano, and I still tune it.

You can always buy a ticket to a show I tune for. There is a good one tonight, in an acoustic situation which makes for difficult tuning. It is not a job for hacks or amateurs. There may be tickets left, but it was a sellout last time.
_________________________
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#1418578 - 04/16/10 04:06 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: BDB]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Jeff, I just think it's a very comforting thought that something not perfectly flawless might be beautiful - and even more so than the ideal, so to speak. And I like both Cohen and Browning wink

BDB: I'm sorry, I seem to have missed your postings, I will look for them! Now (touching the anonymity vs full disclosure thread) how on earth would I know where to by a flight ticket, if I get into BDB/ET-checking mode?

As far as sellouts go, in my experience they are no meter for the quality of tunings - I've played excellent tunings for empty rows and crappy tunings for full houses. And, God knows, everything in between... wink


Edited by pppat (04/16/10 04:15 PM)
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1418743 - 04/16/10 10:03 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: pppat]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2245
Loc: Portland, Oregon
A little Gershwin.....please forgive my 'hackneyed' tuning and lousy 'out-of-tune' sounding piano. wink

Played on the LX playback system, in EBVT III

http://www.box.net/shared/avzhe6juyn

For those interested in how I recorded this..Korg MR-1000, using 2 Avenson STO-2 mics under the lid, one in the bass, the other in the treble, facing directly down, about 2-3 feet above the strings. No processing, reverb, or any sonic enhancements were used, only volume equalization. What you are hearing is the resonance of the piano, helped by the EBVT III tuning, hammers, bass strings, and Wapin, and of course, the excellent Mason & Hamlin piano itself.

(In listening to this and any of the recordings I have put on box.net, it's much better if you download the file, then play it, rather than listening to it played directly from the website. For some reason, there is some type of distorion, albeit slight, that creeps into the recording. Earphones are a big plus!)



Edited by grandpianoman (04/16/10 11:04 PM)

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#1418791 - 04/17/10 12:49 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3722
Loc: Rockford, IL
Nice choice, GP!!!

The EBVT III supercharges this one!
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1418905 - 04/17/10 11:28 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Cinnamonbear]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2245
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Thanks Cinnamonbear!

The harmonies and the complexity of the music really stand out with this piece, especially tuned in EBVT III.

I forgot to put in the title of the Gershwin piece...it's the 3rd movement of his Concerto in F.




Edited by grandpianoman (04/17/10 11:46 AM)

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#1419023 - 04/17/10 03:53 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Thanks for posting this, GP! The Gershwin Concerto in F is one of my favorite pieces! It really sounds great on your piano!
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1419087 - 04/17/10 06:34 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: BDB]
Nick Mauel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/05/08
Posts: 777
Loc: Sarasota and Naples, FL
Originally Posted By: BDB
It would take me months of study to begin to do an adequate job tuning a new temperament; even longer if it is one only vaguely explained. That is because I only do professional-level tunings. To devote that kind of effort for dubious results is more than I am willing to do, particularly on the basis of a bunch of recordings of out-of-tune, bad-sounding pianos, or the word of someone who cannot get a piano to stay in tune for more than a couple of days. The hacks and the amateurs can do that.

How many concert-level tuners have any of you convinced to tune in this temperament? How many commercial recordings? Any? If the advantages are so great, there should be plenty of them.


I would like to state that the above post is the exact opposite to what I have experienced.

I found that once I received insructions on setting the EBVT III temperament that I as an aural tuner could understand, it was easy. The first time I tried it I thought the results were spectacular! The deviations from ET are nothing radical, and produce a very sweet sound. I have tuned it for customers who liked it very much as well.

I say, don't knock it until you try it. Listening to samples was not going to do it for me. I tried it for myself.

So, when the previous post asked the question "How many concert-level tuners have been covinced to use this temperament?", I raised my hand! And I have tuned ET aurally for over 25 years.

I appreciate all that Bill has done in helping others to learn that there is something else out there that can really be enjoyed, even savored - especially by the pianists themselves. Since most technicians are not accomplished pianists, perhaps they cannot have the same appreciation for how the piano sounds musically.
_________________________
Nick's Piano Showroom
Naples, Fort Myers, & Sarasota, FL
New Estonia, Mason & Hamlin, Brodmann & Ritmuller
239-206-4541 direct line
www.nickspiano.com

Concert Piano Technician, Dealer, and Pianist

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#1419181 - 04/17/10 10:30 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Nick Mauel]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20749
Loc: Oakland
I have not knocked anything other than what I have actually listened to that sounded bad to me.

Have any of you gone through the effort of trying to learn to tune the way I tune? It seems not, if you do not even understand what I would have to go through to learn what you seem to think is so simple.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1419192 - 04/17/10 10:54 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: BDB]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
BDB, it might actually do some good if you took the time to lay it out. If you already have, find that post and repost it here.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1419558 - 04/18/10 04:55 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2245
Loc: Portland, Oregon
In re-listening to my recording of the 1st and 2nd movements of Gershwin's Concerto in F, there are enough beautiful sounds coming through to warrant presenting them here, along with the 3rd movement, which I had already posted above, but also include here as well.

The caveat here is that I was not able to produce a "broadcast" quality tuning, where every unison is perfect, and where my trouble area, the 5th and 6th octaves are not spot on.

Nerve the less, keeping those points in mind, there are some wonderful and incredible sounds coming from the piano. EBVT III seems to bring a richness to the harmonies and themes. Best to download and listen with your favorite headphones. smile

During the summer when I have some free time, Bill is going to work with me to improve my hammer technique. We will also be making some recordings with Bill tuning my piano in EBVT III.

Enjoy!


Gershiwn's Concerto in F played on the LX system, in EBVT III

Gershwin-Concerto in F 1st mov, played on the LX http://www.box.net/shared/dpgxgm42sb

Gershwin-Concerto in F 2nd mov, played on the LX http://www.box.net/shared/4573rycabj

Gershwin-Concerto in F 3rd mov, played on the LX http://www.box.net/shared/avzhe6juyn

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#1419630 - 04/18/10 08:11 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
JBE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 377
Loc: USA
Hammer technique will only improve once you can get into a position where you are tuning several different pianos a day, five days a week or so. After about a thousand you'll have it down. It's been said hundreds of times, tuning the same piano over and over again won't do it.


Edited by byronje3 (04/18/10 08:12 PM)

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#1419693 - 04/18/10 10:10 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: JBE]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Byron, I respectfully disagree in this instance. GP is really only interested in keeping his own piano in tune although I believe he has mentioned he has done a few tunings for a few friends. Having the privilege of knowing who he really is, a truly great musician and artist that would humble us all, he neither has the need nor the interest in becoming a piano technician.

What he does want to do is learn to maintain his instrument the best he can. This would have been and is discouraged in most cases. There are, however exceptions to every rule. GP proved his capability to me with his first examples. I was honored that he even wanted to try a method of tuning that so many had literally stomped upon, dismissed, ridiculed and mocked (and they're still doing it). He has been delighted with the results and considering his stature as a professional musician and performing artist of the very highest caliber (if all of you only knew where he is now and what he is doing, you would step back and bow in humility), I consider it to be the confirmation that I need to continue. (GP is not the only artist by far who has confirmed this to me. So many high caliber musicians have on a regular basis and NONE of them have EVER said anything remotely close to what some technicians here have said. Is it any wonder why I would dismiss those opinions as disingenuous and not worth consideration?)

While I haven't yet worked with GP and observed his hammer technique, I actually don't believe the hammer technique itself is really the problem. There have been a number of possibilities suggested as to why the 5th and 6th octaves seem to want to go flat. They are all plausible. One that hasn't yet been suggested is that the fitting of the pinblock to the plate flange may have some gaps in it. I have not questioned the rebuilder about that nor do I intend to. If that is indeed the problem, it can and will eventually resolve itself.

What I do think may be the problem is in the hesitance to perform a pitch correction first before a fine tuning is attempted. This is fairly common among tuning novices. If what is happening is what I think is happening, it is no surprise to me that the piano goes flat and out of tune quickly. It is, in fact, what I would expect to happen.

After the PTG convention, I will visit GP again, work with him as an experienced tuning tutor and attempt to solve the problem. I will spend some time there and we will make a fresh batch of recordings with the piano exactly as I intend it to be. I have every confidence that GP will be able to learn to tune the piano and keep it in tune within reason.

Everyone must remember that if one expects to hear a broadcast quality sound, no piano on earth can maintain that beyond a brief period. For any commercially released recording you have heard, the piano was tuned immediately before that recording. If a recording session is to take hours on end or days to complete, a piano technician has to be on standby to correct any deterioration that develops.

I believe that with a consistently applied technique and a tuning program to which the piano is always returned each and every time, GP's piano can eventually develop some remarkable stability. Some of the remarks that have been made here have been shameful in themselves when it considered how freely GP has wanted to share his experience with all of us. Look forward to more offerings by GP and expect a richness in tone and a delightful experience in key color as GP's technique develops and he acquires new musical offerings.

I'll be putting them on my website. I will want performing artists to hear what they could be experiencing. I will be expecting that as performing artists become aware of the enhanced sound that they could be getting, they will ask for it. Such changes in artist expectations happen very slowly, particularly because so few technicians can or will provide them. When the artists become aware that they have choices and do not have to accept only one tuning style, they are sure to require what they want and they will find the technician who can provide it.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1420098 - 04/19/10 04:02 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2245
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Bill, thanks for your post, appreciate it very much.

Thank you ppat, Nick, Cinnamonbear, for pointing out that there is more than one way to go about tuning a piano to sound beautiful, and that ET is not the ONLY pathway. You all hear it as I do, as a different approach that brings out qualities to the music that ET seems to lack.

Having lived with EBVT III for several months now, when I hear other pianos, I miss the color changes and the effect EBVT III has on the music overall...in ET, they sound 'nice' but they are missing that extra depth and complexity to the music. If I had not heard your EBVT III, I would have never known what I was missing.

I checked with the re-builder in regards to the pinblock and how it was installed. It definitely does not have any gaps in there, so we can rule that out. It's a "Falconwood" pinblock btw.

I look forward to working again with you, and this time, NO piano party, or perhaps AFTER all the recording is done, we can have one! smile

I don't think I posted this one before, beautiful sounds in EBVT III....Roger Williams playing "September Song".....lot's of runs etc. Amazingly enough, Roger Williams recorded this in the late 1970's early 80's for the Pianocorder Playback system, which worked off of cassette tapes! We now can take those recordings, re-encode them with software, (Mid2Piano CD) to the LX language and play them through the LX. It's a great way to save these recordings for posterity, and enjoy them as if he recorded them yesterday!

Thanks again for your post Bill. GP

Roger Williams on the LX playing "September Song" http://www.box.net/shared/iqbytlal5g




Edited by grandpianoman (04/19/10 06:19 PM)

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#1420494 - 04/20/10 08:52 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Thanks, GP, I am pleased to know that the rebuilder is confident that there would be no gaps between the pinblock and the plate flange. Many rebuilders fit the pinblock the best they can but as an added measure, install it with epoxy between the pinblock and the plate flange for a rock solid fit. From the answer that there "definitely" are no gaps, I imagine that must have been done.

Falconwood is the very toughest pinblock material on the market. Some technicians joke about it, calling it "F***in' wood". The laminates are so highly compressed that the wood takes on a different character, like coal to a diamond. This is what gives the tuning pins that extreme amount of resistance. It makes tuning difficult now but it also assures that the piano will never develop loose tuning pins in your lifetime.

I've written quite a lot about how the hammer technique I use largely avoids twisting of the tuning pin but when there is as much resistance as your piano's pinblock offers, it cannot be avoided. You simply need to learn how to win the "tug of war" with your piano and you will be able to enjoy tunings that last longer.

I very much enjoy any selections by Roger Williams. The texture provided by the EBVT III enhances the modulations, providing the appropriate tension and release that is written in the music.

When you get home, I wonder if you can find in the LX catalog any recordings done by that Boogie Woogie artist I recently worked for, Michael Kaeshammer? His technique is so phenomenal, you would hardly believe human hands could do what he does.

We have already enjoyed "Flight of the Bumble Bee", I wonder if you can find any recording of "Bumble Bee Boogie"? It is very entertaining! As it does for all music, the EBVT III enhances Boogie Woogie with tension and release. The small minor thirds create the "blue note" effect that we hear in most of the Gershwin and any Blues type music. Boogie Woogie evolved out of Blues, so the blue notes fit right in where they belong. I hear them in the September Song melody too.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1420511 - 04/20/10 09:37 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
JBE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 377
Loc: USA
I have a hunch that GP is Neil Diamond. Am I right am I right?? laugh

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#1420517 - 04/20/10 09:54 AM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: JBE]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
No, and I am not supposed to tell anyone, BUT (it's Elvis!)
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1420585 - 04/20/10 12:25 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: UnrightTooner]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2245
Loc: Portland, Oregon
SHHHH......neither......I wish! LOL

That makes sense Bill...before we pounded the pins down in that upper treble section, the pins were not that difficult to work, now they are definitely tighter than the rest of the piano, but still are giving me grief. I am sure we can figure it out, and is most likely, as you say, due to the way I tune with the ETD.

I will check what I have, but as I recall, I don't have the "Bumble Bee Boogie". I am sure I can find something similar in my Ampico and LX collection. Another possibility are the musical libraries of other companies.




Edited by grandpianoman (04/20/10 01:26 PM)

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#1420619 - 04/20/10 01:25 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1579
Loc: Chicagoland
As I recall, Bill uses a extended tip for grands - to be consistent with lever technique across the piano? Are you changing anything (hand/body/lever position) in the problem area that might be causing instability?

Ron Koval
chicagoland
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#1420628 - 04/20/10 01:49 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: RonTuner]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2245
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Hi Ron,

I don't think I am....I usually drop the pitch slightly before pulling it slightly sharp, then I bang on the note while nudging the pitch down to stop the ETD. A lot of the notes in that 5th-6th octave, after I have pounded the note to be correct, if I keep pounding, the note continues to go flat. I am sure it's the way I do it that's at fault. The rest of the piano does not go flat near as fast, and the unisons are much better as well.

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#1420632 - 04/20/10 02:06 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
Ralph Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/01
Posts: 1293
Loc: Delaware (slower/lower)
I like to pull up to the pitch the a short snap with the wrist. I don't like to nudge down to the pitch as my last adjustment. I find the piano goes flat quickly with that type of move.


Elvis is dead isn't he?
_________________________
Do or do not. There is no try.

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#1420647 - 04/20/10 02:44 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Ralph]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1579
Loc: Chicagoland
I can't feel your block/pin/string connection from here. Bill should be able to come up with some suggestions...

Try this for now - (single string test)
After you drop the pitch a bit, do a quicker pull to get above the pitch. That has a better chance of moving the "root" of the tuning pin. Any small movement now will be torquing the pin a little. The goal is to place it where the pitch wants to stay high. Go ahead and bring it down just a little and see if some pounding makes it shift any more. Sometimes the pitch will even creep up!

Play with the difference between feeling the pin move and feeling the pin torque. Then you will have a better chance leaving the pin/string in a stable position.

make any sense?

Ron Koval
chicagoland
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#1420658 - 04/20/10 03:06 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: RonTuner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
As I recall, Bill uses a extended tip for grands - to be consistent with lever technique across the piano? Are you changing anything (hand/body/lever position) in the problem area that might be causing instability?

Ron Koval
chicagoland


Ron, I did away with the extended tip what I got the Joe Goss tuning hammer.

I wrote essentially this on another thread: I think the reason that section of the piano goes flat so quickly is the high pin torque and that GP will naturally put a lot of twist in the pin. If the entire section is flat, even by just a few cents and all GP does is pull and twist the pin until each string is just barely up to the pitch his ETD indicates, it is no wonder to me that the whole thing quickly reverts to nearly where it was to begin with.

I need to teach him how to do a relatively quick and stress free pitch correction. I believe that he will then find fine tuning of that section far easier to accomplish and it should hold much longer.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1420663 - 04/20/10 03:14 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: grandpianoman
Hi Ron,

I don't think I am....I usually drop the pitch slightly before pulling it slightly sharp, then I bang on the note while nudging the pitch down to stop the ETD. A lot of the notes in that 5th-6th octave, after I have pounded the note to be correct, if I keep pounding, the note continues to go flat. I am sure it's the way I do it that's at fault. The rest of the piano does not go flat near as fast, and the unisons are much better as well.


I forgot to mention that the 5th and 6th octaves are a little more sensitive than the rest of the piano. The "it keeps on going remark" tells me a lot. I know very well what you mean by that. Essentially, the piano is winning the "tug of war". You need to learn how to send people over to that side and kick them in the butt so you can win at this game. It's really fairly simple and all a matter of technique, knowing how the piano will respond. You know what the piano wants to do, so you take counter measures to defeat it.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1420666 - 04/20/10 03:19 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Ralph Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/01
Posts: 1293
Loc: Delaware (slower/lower)

Here's a nice summery of good tuning technique.

http://www.blackstonepiano.com/tutorial/tuningtechniques.htm

GP, If you "flag pole" the tuning pin the tuning will definitely be unstable. The pin has to turn even ever so slightly. I like to have a little play in the hammer so I can tap to pin.

Ron, you have many great videos. Do you have any showing good hammer technique?
_________________________
Do or do not. There is no try.

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#1420678 - 04/20/10 03:43 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Ralph]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1579
Loc: Chicagoland
Took a huuuuuge break from the videos.... Hoping to get going again soon!

Ron Koval
chicagoland
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#1420711 - 04/20/10 04:57 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: RonTuner]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2245
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Ralph, thanks for the tip. Yes, I am aware of the 'flagpoling' issue...that's why I wanted the pins to a bit lower, as they were somewhat high, and easily prone for me to flagpole them a bit. My tuning hammer is the Fujan with only a 5 degree head...that was suggested as a way for a novice tuner to do less flagpoling. Here is a picture before we pounded them down.



That makes sense Bill.

After watching Bill this last time and his explaining that a sharp nudge/tap on the hammer is better than a slow pull, as it helps equalize the whole length of the string, I did not have enough time to try it out. I am sure we will get into all that when he returns.

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#1420716 - 04/20/10 05:09 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Ralph]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Ralph
I like to pull up to the pitch the a short snap with the wrist. I don't like to nudge down to the pitch as my last adjustment. I find the piano goes flat quickly with that type of move.


Ralph, you hit the nail on the head. That will only lead to the "they keep on going" syndrome. I have been tuning pianos for so many years and have made all of my significant income for over 30 years by tuning pianos that I have naturally learned to become very efficient. I hardly have to think about the movements I make to stabilize a tuning pin and the string. The movements are instinctive to me, so they take very little time. I would say that most technicians on here would not even be aware of the actions I take to set a pin because they happen so quickly.

While I can appreciate the idea of taking a slow and very careful approach to tuning, time is money. It is certainly not about hacking out 4 or more tunings a day, wham, bam, thank you, ma'am and running a piano tuning racket. Pianos do require other services. There is travel time. There are time constraints on the part of the client, whether it be in a home, a school, church, restaurant, hotel, performance stage, etc. Those who can consistently get the job done and get it done well survive in a market with heavy competition.

I took a good long time to tune GP's piano that day but I would be the first to say that it can probably be improved. I wouldn't change it much, no, but I think I may be able to stretch the high treble a bit more and get that glorious pipe organ effect that seemed to be a bit disappointing in this case. I would also focus more on getting truly equal beating intervals where they are called for.

While I had the entire day, I did have to wait for long periods for other technical work to be finalized. A lot of time was wasted tracking down an annoying "buzz" when by instinct, I knew where it must be coming from. Only when I finally looked for what I was sure it must have been but was twice told, "No, it couldn't be that", did I resolve the issue quickly.

That is why I brought up the possibility of pinblock "rocking" because of potential gaps in the fitting. It does happen and therefore it came to mind. It is not something I could do anything about, so I accept the answer that "it couldn't be that" in this case.

There are many extremes in the life of a piano technician. I won't try to list them all here but how long it takes to tune a piano very well is a good example. Many times, I simply must get the job done as quickly as I possibly can for whatever reason. I do it and it happens. However, I would also say that when I have had all the time in the world to get a piano tuning to a state of complete, flawless perfection, that has never happened once, not even in 8 hours of concentrated work, not in over 40 years of wishing that I could. There is always some kind of cut off point. The closer one is to that ultimate state of perfection, the more elusive it becomes.

Speed and accuracy are not to be thought of as something negative. If any one of us were to watch a skilled factory stringer, for example, one who can lay on the strings and cut the string accurately enough for a perfect 3 coil job would be amazed at how quickly each string is so expertly installed in a matter of seconds. Neither that person nor the factory could afford the 10-15 minutes it take me to install a string and really get it right!

Originally Posted By: Ralph
Elvis is dead isn't he?


They say he is but there have been "sightings" in Wisconsin. smirk The recent meteorite crash near here was said to have finally taken him out! tiki

Those of you who have speculated on who GP is are not even warm. You'll never guess in a hundred years. The most I'll say is what he has already said, that he is a classically trained musician and performs as such. I do wish you all could experience his amazing technique. He is a man of talent and has done remarkably well so far in tuning his piano. Any of the professional technicians on here would find tuning his piano and putting the tuning up for display on here to be quite a challenge.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1420743 - 04/20/10 06:14 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Ralph]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Ralph

Here's a nice summery of good tuning technique.

http://www.blackstonepiano.com/tutorial/tuningtechniques.htm

GP, If you "flag pole" the tuning pin the tuning will definitely be unstable. The pin has to turn even ever so slightly. I like to have a little play in the hammer so I can tap to pin.

Ron, you have many great videos. Do you have any showing good hammer technique?


Ralph, I don't know who you are but I just read the "bible" when I went to your link! GP, out of all of the drivel that may be written on here, the link that Ralph posted may be of more help to you than anything I have seen yet. Study his material carefully!

Ralph, I don't know if you are a PTG member or not but your writing is so excellent that with a little editing, it would make an excellent PTG Journal article! Articles by non-members are sometimes published.

I truly thank you for a most excellent contribution! If you like the idea of publishing your ideas in the PTG Journal, I would be more than happy to help you edit them into a final format. I believe every technician should be aware of what you have written. It is all very practical and true to my own experience.

As a Steinway involved/trained technician, I also thank you for not taking the "bashing" route on this thread. You have offered practical and useful advice on how to attain desired results. That is immensely appreciated! There are certain Steinway tuners who are occasionally called upon to perform the "Rembrant" (colorful) tuning. What they actually do has always remained unexplained. With that in mind, I would like to know of your true impression of the recordings GP has submitted. Do you find an enhancement or does the inequality of temperament rub you the wrong way? I promise no flames as to your response.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1420755 - 04/20/10 06:36 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2245
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Thanks Bill. Ralph, I will definitely read through your tuning instructions, and thank you very much for posting the link to them.

It's very much appreciated to see this kind of help, as opposed to some of the negative posts I have seen here that offered nothing but criticism etc!

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#1420800 - 04/20/10 08:31 PM Re: My Piano in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
Alan T. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 97
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Ralph: Your website link in the above posting has great information. I really enjoyed reading it and can't wait to use what I have learned.
_________________________
Piano Tuner
Schimmel 174T

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