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#1666711 - 04/26/11 07:42 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Online   content
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
I guess you could.
The M7 sounds a lot more tense than the 6 to me. Using both the M7 and the 6 is even more tense. But it still sounds good to me.
When you run the arpeggios for practicing, the point is to really take in the changes, and going over 1 3 5 7 is very useful.

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#1666713 - 04/26/11 07:44 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: ten left thumbs]
custard apple Offline
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Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs
I'm working on lesson 5 now: sweet and low, from Sugar. As I didn't know the tune, and I don't have any printed version, can someone listen to this please? I've taken the tune as I hear it and put it over the chords from lesson 5. There is just one bar where I left out the chord as I didn't think it worked.

http://www.box.net/shared/lfiq3cb2va



I loved your idea of singing Sugar over Dave's voicings, it sounded really cool, are you practising for the next George Benson tour ? smile

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#1666716 - 04/26/11 07:49 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
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Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: knotty
I guess you could.
The M7 sounds a lot more tense than the 6 to me. Using both the M7 and the 6 is even more tense. But it still sounds good to me.
When you run the arpeggios for practicing, the point is to really take in the changes, and going over 1 3 5 7 is very useful.


Thanks Knotty. I will play around with more voicings tomorrow, maybe spread out the maj 7 and the 6, so the chord sounds less tense.

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#1666771 - 04/26/11 09:43 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
btw, I'm not annoyed at all, you can ask anything you want. I don't garantee the response, but you can ask smile

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#1667063 - 04/26/11 05:50 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: custard apple


I loved your idea of singing Sugar over Dave's voicings, it sounded really cool, are you practising for the next George Benson tour ? smile


Something like that. Jazz has worked much better for me since I realised I need to sing everything for it to go in.

I had my first lesson with the guitar teacher the other day. He certainly knows his stuff about jazz. It's all very exciting.
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#1667119 - 04/26/11 07:39 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
davefrank Offline
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Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 672
the best place to find talent is in yourself:)

DF

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#1667361 - 04/27/11 09:28 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: davefrank]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: davefrank
the best place to find talent is in yourself:)

DF


Clearly. But the best place to find motivational quips is the JOI thread.
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#1668938 - 04/30/11 09:57 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
I have a question about Louis Armstrong. I understand he had a right to sing the blues. I understand he had a right to feel low down. But what on earth made him think he could hang around down by the river? eek That was just a step too far.

Edit: OK, now a serious question. I've moved on to lesson 7. Can someone please help me make sense of dominants. I don't need absolute rules that are always followed. Just some kind of sense.

I understand b9 is often the V of the minor. Apart from that I get terribly confused.


Edited by ten left thumbs (04/30/11 02:43 PM)
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#1669145 - 04/30/11 06:13 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Online   content
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>> That was just a step too far.
Yeah, a little too far out wink

>>Edit: OK, now a serious question. I've moved on to lesson 7. Can someone please help me make sense of dominants. I don't need absolute rules that are always followed. Just some kind of sense.
I understand b9 is often the V of the minor. Apart from that I get terribly confused.

Do you mean in terms of voicings?

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#1669169 - 04/30/11 07:09 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: knotty


Do you mean in terms of voicings?


Not voicings so much as the alterations. Sharpened 9th, flattened 9th. Ditto for 13th.

I completely get that a dominant chord often has the 13th instead of the 5th. That makes perfect sense to me. What I'm looking for is some way to understand why and where the 9th and/or 13th are altered.

The other thing that confuses me - though I try not to let it - is that the b13 is sometimes called a #5. Unless there's some subtle difference, I just see them as two different names for the same thing - or should I pay closer attention?
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#1669231 - 04/30/11 09:45 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
10,

I'm not sure I understand the question.
In a minor ii-V-I, the 9 of the V is often flat. The natural 9 would not sound very good.
But the thing is you can really alter those chords a lot. Much depends on where your melody is going.
So you'll see leadsheets with +5 or #9, or #11, that's usually because the melody note is there.
Take Someday my Prince. It has G7+, that's because the #5, an Eb, is the melody.
Getting into stuff too advanced for me, when you alter chords with tri-tone subs, it lends itself to using nice diminished scales and patterns. For example, over a G7alt chord, you could look into G7 dim, or Ab melodic minor(1/2 step above) or D melodic minor (5th).

The other thing is that dominant 7th substitute nicely for other dominant 7th a tritone away. So having Eb7 D7 to Db7 can be seen as Eb7 D7 G7. If you were to play the descending root, then G7 would have an altered 13 in it. Move this to a b9, you got yourself a nice altered G7, which would lead nicely to a C-6, for example.

I'm glad you're not asking for rules, because I don't really know what they are. But there's a bit of magic happening when you get to make certain tones move from one to another. Watch the Bill Evans masterclass and see how Bill would treat simple progression and add lots of colors and movement. It's really interesting.

That's the beauty of solo piano, you can really move to weird places, and somehow make it work.

Check out some Art Tatum if you got it. It's totally out of this world. The stuff he uses is really out there. Very advanced and whacked out re-harm. I don't get it...

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#1669433 - 05/01/11 11:16 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Hi Knotty and thanks for your answer.

Originally Posted By: knotty

I'm not sure I understand the question.


I'm starting lesson 7 which has the dominant voicings. There is no theory, no explanation - just play then and absorb, transpose. This is fine and good. But... But as I play them I like to think to myself, 'this is such-and-such-a chord, I might use it in this situation'. And there are just so many alterations, it seems like a bit of a jungle.

Quote:

In a minor ii-V-I, the 9 of the V is often flat. The natural 9 would not sound very good.


Yes. Also the 13 is often flat, as this is the 3rd of the key I'm in, and for a minor key that's flat. Or I suppose it might be written b9#5, but I'm not sure I've ever seen this.

Quote:

But the thing is you can really alter those chords a lot. Much depends on where your melody is going.
So you'll see leadsheets with +5 or #9, or #11, that's usually because the melody note is there.
Take Someday my Prince. It has G7+, that's because the #5, an Eb, is the melody.


Makes sense. I don't have Someday My Prince written out, but I see what you're saying.

Quote:

Getting into stuff too advanced for me, when you alter chords with tri-tone subs, it lends itself to using nice diminished scales and patterns. For example, over a G7alt chord, you could look into G7 dim, or Ab melodic minor(1/2 step above) or D melodic minor (5th).


Yes, too advanced for me too. When you say G7alt, do you mean a specific alteration, or just anything?

Quote:

The other thing is that dominant 7th substitute nicely for other dominant 7th a tritone away. So having Eb7 D7 to Db7 can be seen as Eb7 D7 G7. If you were to play the descending root, then G7 would have an altered 13 in it. Move this to a b9, you got yourself a nice altered G7, which would lead nicely to a C-6, for example.


Sorry, I don't get all of this.
So supposing I play:
Eb7: Eb G Bb Db
Then D7: D F# A C
Then a mystery chord: Db F Ab B
Then my mystery chord is EITHER: a rootless G7 with a flattened 5th and a flattened 9th OR: a tritone sub for that G7 (aka a Db7). Just depends on how I want to see it.

So if I see b5b9 then it's probably a tritone sub?

Am I close?

'fraid I don't get there being a 13th in that G7.

Quote:

I'm glad you're not asking for rules, because I don't really know what they are. But there's a bit of magic happening when you get to make certain tones move from one to another. Watch the Bill Evans masterclass and see how Bill would treat simple progression and add lots of colors and movement. It's really interesting.


Yes, will get back to the masterclasses. I find they require a bit more time-at-a-stretch than I can normally manage.

Quote:

That's the beauty of solo piano, you can really move to weird places, and somehow make it work.

Check out some Art Tatum if you got it. It's totally out of this world. The stuff he uses is really out there. Very advanced and whacked out re-harm. I don't get it...


I do have some Art T. But as always listening alone doesn't really help. It all comes too fast.
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#1669449 - 05/01/11 11:43 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>> Then a mystery chord: Db F Ab B
that's a plain vanilla Db7

That's a also a G7 with a raised 5 and a b9. That's what I call G7alt. When you start altering 9 and 13, I might call that alt.

>> I'm starting lesson 7 which has the dominant voicings. There is no theory, no explanation - just play then and absorb, transpose. This is fine and good. But... But as I play them I like to think to myself, 'this is such-and-such-a chord, I might use it in this situation'. And there are just so many alterations, it seems like a bit of a jungle

I think the idea is to not master these voicings at all, but rather listen to each individual tones, and get used to the fact that many voicings work, especially on a dom 7.
There are many rules for applying voicings. One is you want them to match the melody that you are playing. When you are playing a natural 9, the b9 on the LH doesn't work great, for example.
Also, not all dom 7 is part of a major ii-5-I. For example in the blues. On the blues, #9 work great, because your blues scale's got the minor 3rd.
Finally, you pick voicings that work and move nice together.

For now, no need to go deep into trying to understand it all, because it's a life long journey. Also, you don't have to do all exercises at the same pace. You may stay on Hanon for 2 weeks, but move 1 voicing lesson per week.
That way, you'll finish the voicings quicker and you'll be ready to arrange. Once you start arranging, you kind of just spend a long time picking chords and playing with texture.

As you do the voicings, say the full chord name out loud. Play it with eyes open, then eyes closed, and visualize it on the keyboard. It's a sound and shape kinda thing.

>> I do have some Art T. But as always listening alone doesn't really help. It all comes too fast.
When you start arranging, spend some time alone trying to find nice chord and playing with all sorts of alterations. Then take a break and put Tatum on. Your ears will be more open to the kind of wildness that's going on.

It's kind of like if you practice block chords a la garland, then you listen to Garland. It makes a lot more sense, and you actually hear the tension better, because you just played it.

Just take it easy.

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#1669459 - 05/01/11 12:13 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: knotty
>> Then a mystery chord: Db F Ab B
that's a plain vanilla Db7

That's a also a G7 with a raised 5 and a b9.


Raised 5th? Humour me. Which bit's the raised 5th?
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#1669472 - 05/01/11 12:47 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
yeah sorry, you got me! wink

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#1669485 - 05/01/11 01:14 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Good, I thought I was going crazy! crazy

Originally Posted By: knotty

As you do the voicings, say the full chord name out loud. Play it with eyes open, then eyes closed, and visualize it on the keyboard. It's a sound and shape kinda thing.


Yeah, I get it. And I do it, don't get me wrong. I just can't entirely silence that part of my brain that says 'what tf am I doing?'

Thanks for your answers, it was just the kind of thing I was looking for.
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#1669870 - 05/02/11 07:17 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
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Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: knotty
>>

There are many rules for applying voicings. One is you want them to match the melody that you are playing.


Hi Knotty
That's interesting, I've been listening to Art Tatum these last few days and thinking "Is his melody driving some of the voicing ?"
When I'm learning to improvise, isn't my chord driving the melody ?

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#1669887 - 05/02/11 08:16 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Cus,

When you learn to improvise, you want to keep it simple. Rhythm and time is the most important thing. You can play your whole life, do nothing but play a major scale, and still be very good. If you play with great phrasing and rhythm.

So the approach that we choose is to give a simple scale that you can rely on, one that works against the particular progression you're working on.

I was listening to Barry Harris, who's a really funny educator (and one of the best jazz pianist ever). Particularly opinionated. Anyway he was talking about a dude who said something like "I've done every thing in the major scale, I need more". And Barry saying "He's a fool".

So I'm answering 10s question to the best of my ability, but it's more advanced concepts that we shouldn't really try to apply on the spot quite yet.
That said, when you know you're going to practice improvising with a particular scale, choose a nice chord progression that works, and stick to it.

How many 2-5-1 have you done yet?

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#1670271 - 05/02/11 08:33 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
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Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Hi Knotty
I've been trying to improvise cool melodies as well as on rhythm and phrasing. Maybe I will now just concentrate on rhythm and phrasing.
I've done all the major ii V I s.
I've done 2 combination progressions (C maj/A min and F maj/ D min) .
Right now I'm learning the tonality for Bb maj/G min doing your scales up, arps down etc exercises.

Unfortunately my right index finger is really sore from tennis, I'm seeing my coach on Friday to find out why. Yesterday I played through the pain but I think I really need to rest it.

Cheers
cus

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#1670420 - 05/03/11 04:34 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
That's too bad, custard, please do rest it, or get physio.

I suppose you could work on your LH voicings, or even some LH hanons. Yum! laugh
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#1670433 - 05/03/11 05:37 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
davefrank Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 672
you need to use a racket every time cus.

DF

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#1670446 - 05/03/11 06:44 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Hey Dave
You are too funny laugh laugh

Hi Ten
Thanks ! You are so right. It's the perfect opportunity to practise stuff I don't normally do.

I tried LH Hanons Lesson 20 today. They were far too hard so I went back to Lesson 1 Hanons. Tomorrow I will do Lesson 2 Hanons.

For voicings, I practised the LH of my own arrangement for When I Fall in Love.

I'm going to study Dave's Walking Bass Line clinic again tomorrow and give it a try.

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#1670463 - 05/03/11 07:35 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
davefrank Offline
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Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 672
no racket for the walking basslines now cus..you could practice basslines for say, 15-30 min:)

DF

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#1670585 - 05/03/11 11:36 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Hey 10,

>> I do have some Art T. But as always listening alone doesn't really help. It all comes too fast.
It does come fast. I was thinking about it as I'm watching the new Dave Frank masterclass with Dick Hyman. Dave talked about the Swiss watch metaphor. What you're seeing is what you're supposed to be seeing, and that's a beautiful final product. In order to understand it deeper, you'd have to turn it around, and probably open it up.

But what if you just listened to Tatum, and then picked a 2 second passage, and try to dissect that. Just 2 seconds. Working on 2 seconds of Tatum, and I don't mean from a technical standpoint, would probably keep you busy for a week and you'd only scratch the surface.

However, that's a great way to steal ideas. Just take something tiny and try to get why it works. Could be a chord movement, or a device, a simple pattern. But I think the key is keeping it small. Noone can understand all of Tatum in a few simple listening. The guy was a genius and spent his entire life perfecting the art.
Each time to start grasping 2 seconds of music, you hear the rest a little bit more clearly.

Later, I'll try and post 2 or 3 seconds of Tatum playing tenderly. And maybe we can make some sense out of it.

I only listened to 1/2 the masterclass this morning. I had to debate between practice and listening, so I did 1/2 and 1/2, but Dick said something along the line of having an ear for being able to pick up from recordings, and that not everyone had it, but he did.
I remember Bill Evans saying something similar, that some people just had a facility for hearing things, but that he did not. And that to a certain extent, it forced him to work really hard at developing his style. Obviously he succeeded.

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#1670802 - 05/03/11 05:32 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: knotty

Later, I'll try and post 2 or 3 seconds of Tatum playing tenderly. And maybe we can make some sense out of it.



Go on then. Too difficult alone, but I'll do it here. Besides it'll keep cus out of mischief.
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#1670858 - 05/03/11 06:43 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
alright then, let's take a look at this.

technically, I think this is totally doable. However, I would never come up with that stuff. But how great it works. Let's see if we can make sense of it:

http://www.box.net/shared/89enj391tc

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#1670863 - 05/03/11 06:46 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
and before you get me, I know, it's longer than 2 or 3 secs, it's more like 8, but you can just take the 1st or 2nd half if you want. I wanted to give a tiny bit of context.
The tune is tenderly, and he's playing it in D.

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#1671091 - 05/04/11 02:46 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Hi Knotty
Thanks for selecting such a beautiful extract from Tenderly.
I've chosen the RH melodic lines and tried to make some sense of it. I'm not a very good transcriber especially when it comes to:
1. interpreting rhythm or rubato
2. working out the notes in a chord.

http://www.box.net/shared/yxu2qb9sct

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#1671164 - 05/04/11 07:25 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Hey Cus, that looks really good to me. This stuff is really hard to write on paper, i dont' do it, mostly because I can't.
Here's how I'd go about it.

On the first section, I hear these few points:
- The melody is played very clearly, and correctly. Just with a few secs of the clip, you know it's tenderly.
- He comes in on the first note with what sounds like a 2 hand - 3 notes slur to land on the D, and let it ring nice. That re-inforces the melody.
- After the note is played, he lands the chord, which seems more or less like a plain Gb-7
- He does a little bit of movement to create interest, something fairly simple, going down the scale.
- He surprises us by not landing on the b7 like we'd expect but going back up to the major 7, which creates major tension
- He does not resolve that major 7, but moves on

This extract is from a Capitol Records recording, in case you are interested. The whole thing is pure genius.

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#1671173 - 05/04/11 07:50 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: knotty

- The melody is played very clearly, and correctly. Just with a few secs of the clip, you know it's tenderly.



Thanks Knotty !
I wouldn't have known where to start a year ago.

Which vocalist or other version should I listen to in order to learn Tenderly ?

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by Thomas B
07/23/14 03:36 PM
Godowsky - Prelude and Fugue for left hand alone
by Polyphonist
07/23/14 02:50 PM
piano player wanted...
by David Farley
07/23/14 02:38 PM
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