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#1671514 - 05/04/11 04:03 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Oscar Peterson does a mean version of tenderly, and I think Ella sang it too.
But I'm not a vocalist expert...

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#1671541 - 05/04/11 04:40 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
Legal Beagle Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 776
Originally Posted By: knotty
Oscar Peterson does a mean version of tenderly, and I think Ella sang it too.
But I'm not a vocalist expert...


Here's Sarah Vaughan singing the $#@! out of it: CLICK HERE
_________________________
"Wide awake, I can make my most fantastic dreams come true..."
- Lorenz Hart

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#1671615 - 05/04/11 06:35 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
This is the version I grew up with:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W-Nfv4oobg

Just so you know, I can do more than just hard rock...

Edit: I just downloaded the clip and put it into transcribe. May get a chance to look at it tomorrow. At first listening I have no idea of beats or bars, and can't see where the tune fits, but will try to get some notes down anyway. I'll do this before looking at custard's score.


Edited by ten left thumbs (05/04/11 06:43 PM)
_________________________
I am a competent teacher.


www.justfingers.co.uk
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#1671643 - 05/04/11 07:23 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Thanks everyone for helping me learn the melody to Tenderly.

Knotty
I've just listened to Oscar Peterson and then Ella, they were awesome.

Leagle Beagle
Sarah Vaughan, that sonorous voice, it was great.

Ten
haHA, it wasn't much help to me as you could guess, but how hilarious was that !

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#1671647 - 05/04/11 07:34 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: knotty
Hey Cus, that looks really good to me. This stuff is really hard to write on paper, i dont' do it, mostly because I can't.
Here's how I'd go about it.

On the first section, I hear these few points:
- The melody is played very clearly, and correctly. Just with a few secs of the clip, you know it's tenderly.
- He comes in on the first note with what sounds like a 2 hand - 3 notes slur to land on the D, and let it ring nice. That re-inforces the melody.
- After the note is played, he lands the chord, which seems more or less like a plain Gb-7
- He does a little bit of movement to create interest, something fairly simple, going down the scale.
- He surprises us by not landing on the b7 like we'd expect but going back up to the major 7, which creates major tension
- He does not resolve that major 7, but moves on

This extract is from a Capitol Records recording, in case you are interested. The whole thing is pure genius.




Hey Knots
Your ear is very discerning. Thanks for articulating your insights so clearly.
It's amazing how the great Art could use such a simple device as a descending unaltered major scale so effectively, and in just the right place.
Yes, Art highlighting that maj 7 certainly created a very interesting sound. As Dave said in the Frank Zappa masterclass, ending a phrase on the 7 could create a poignant, spiritual sound. The unresolved quality was really cool.

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#1671657 - 05/04/11 07:52 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
I think I forgot to mention that it was a very challenging but encouraging exercise for me.
I had stopped transcribing at the beginning of this year as the Charlie Christian ones were taking me too much time, since I wasn't very good at it.
But I feel I have improved a lot.

And I learnt so much from just a few seconds of Art.

I loved the section in the masterclass with Dick Hyman where he says "With Art, take what you can. Marvel at the rest of it".

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#1672073 - 05/05/11 03:34 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Some recordings. This is lesson 6:

http://www.box.net/shared/dz1rejqon9
http://www.box.net/shared/lukb73tsc9

melody line from Tenderly excerpt:
http://www.box.net/shared/f2b0j9f2kl

For tenderly I've not yet looked at what other people came up with, I want to try it a little myself first.

Anyway, all comments welcome! smile

For transcribing - I've found actually *writing it ou*t is a really laborious process. A lot is working out rhythms, and sometimes I just can't be bothered. What I have learned from JOI is that (this is my opinion) 90% of the learning comes from listening and imitating. This in itself is time-consuming. But the writing is even more time consuming, and I'm not convinced that the extra learning gained from writing it out is worthwhile. Possibly the time would be better spent on another tune, or on hanons. Just my ha'penny worth.
_________________________
I am a competent teacher.


www.justfingers.co.uk
www.babysinging.co.uk

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#1672081 - 05/05/11 03:43 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Tlt,

lesson 6 is perfecto!

>> For transcribing - I've found actually *writing it ou*t is a really laborious process. A lot is working out rhythms, and sometimes I just can't be bothered. What I have learned from JOI is that (this is my opinion) 90% of the learning comes from listening and imitating. This in itself is time-consuming. But the writing is even more time consuming, and I'm not convinced that the extra learning gained from writing it out is worthwhile. Possibly the time would be better spent on another tune, or on hanons. Just my ha'penny worth.

I agree.

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#1672084 - 05/05/11 03:44 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>> I had stopped transcribing at the beginning of this year as the Charlie Christian ones were taking me too much time, since I wasn't very good at it.

I also enjoyed Charlie Christian less than the others. But when you jump to Charlie Parker, I think you'll enjoy those a lot. Start with Now's the time or Moose the mooche maybe. Those are really good.

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#1672295 - 05/05/11 11:23 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Singing Bird is one of my favorite parts of the day. I really liked Moose the Mooche, and have almost finished learning Perhaps. I think I loved Perhaps even more than Moose.
On the weekend I look forward to moving onto Now's The Time, thanks for the suggestion.

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#1672357 - 05/06/11 04:02 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: ten left thumbs]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs
Some recordings. This is lesson 6:

http://www.box.net/shared/dz1rejqon9
http://www.box.net/shared/lukb73tsc9

melody line from Tenderly excerpt:
http://www.box.net/shared/f2b0j9f2kl

For tenderly I've not yet looked at what other people came up with, I want to try it a little myself first.

Anyway, all comments welcome! smile



Wow, you have been very productive.
As Knotty said, Lesson 6 was perfect. I never played Lesson 6 anywhere as well or as fast as you.

For Tenderly, I really like your two slurs.
What was the main thing you learnt from these few seconds of Art ?

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#1672496 - 05/06/11 11:44 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: custard apple


Wow, you have been very productive.
As Knotty said, Lesson 6 was perfect. I never played Lesson 6 anywhere as well or as fast as you.


Thanks for the thumbs up guys! I am finding the tunes get easier to learn fairly efficiently. Whether I'm getting used to the phrasing or the voicings, I don't know. I am aiming at 120, that seems to be quite a standard speed.

Quote:

For Tenderly, I really like your two slurs.
What was the main thing you learnt from these few seconds of Art ?


I was asking myself the very same thing. So far, not a single darned thing. I can make no sense of the rhythm or the harmony. Was planning on having another look at it tonight.

What did you learn from it?

Edit: re dominant voicings. The voicing 3 7 #9 is the same as 7 3 13. As in Turvy line 3 bar 2 where G7 C7#9 could also be called G7 F#7.


Edited by ten left thumbs (05/06/11 03:14 PM)
_________________________
I am a competent teacher.


www.justfingers.co.uk
www.babysinging.co.uk

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#1672733 - 05/06/11 07:53 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: ten left thumbs]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs


I was asking myself the very same thing. So far, not a single darned thing. I can make no sense of the rhythm or the harmony. Was planning on having another look at it tonight.

What did you learn from it?



haha I love your honesty.
I always find the rhythm the most difficult part to transcribe especially for solos played rubato.

I learnt a lot from it. The main thing I learnt was to include more scales in my improv. Before this exercise, I was afraid of using unaltered scales in my improvs in case I sounded boring. If Art Tatum can make the simplest D major descending scale sound good, then I should use scales more often in my improv.

The extract Knotty gave us has been stuck in my head for a couple of days now.

Having learnt so much from it, I decided to transcribe the next few seconds. Here's my attempt at transcribing it.

http://www.box.net/shared/kgqhage72y

Listen to the way Art incorporates something so "simple" as an ascending chromatic and a descending chromatic in just the right places.

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#1672753 - 05/06/11 08:55 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>> I was asking myself the very same thing. So far, not a single darned thing. I can make no sense of the rhythm or the harmony. Was planning on having another look at it tonight.

10,
I wouldn't sweat it too much. It's also nowhere in the joi method to try and make sense of a sample of music such as the one I posted, so I really wouldn't force it.

Once you finish all the voicing lessons (which can be pretty fast), you can start arranging. That's a very difficult and interesting exercise. I use those sample as a way to guide me through the arranging. I also don't try to write things down on paper.

Perhaps once you start thinking in terms of arrangements, you will find value in this exercise.

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#1672760 - 05/06/11 09:06 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>> . I think I loved Perhaps even more than Moose.
Perhaps was one of my favorite tunes also. Can you believe it "just" a blues? smile

Nice job on the Tatum bit. I liked that part because it's not very complicated, but it really caught my ear.

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#1672761 - 05/06/11 09:07 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>> . I also don't try to write things down on paper.
To clarify, I do write my arrangements on paper, but not my "transcriptions".

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#1672774 - 05/06/11 09:31 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: knotty
>> . I think I loved Perhaps even more than Moose.
Perhaps was one of my favorite tunes also. Can you believe it "just" a blues? smile



Bird's solo in Perhaps was so clever.
Do you remember how it was in three 12-bars ? One of the reasons why it took me so long to learn was that I would sometimes accidentally sing the melody of A1 during A2 or A3.

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#1672776 - 05/06/11 09:34 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: knotty

Nice job on the Tatum bit. I liked that part because it's not very complicated, but it really caught my ear.


Thanks for reviewing Knotty. Now that my finger is feeling better I will spend the practice time getting back to improv. But if one day I have another injury, I would love you to give me another transcription exercise.

I can do everything now with that finger except RH Hanons.

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#1672945 - 05/07/11 08:56 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>> Do you remember how it was in three 12-bars ? One of the reasons why it took me so long to learn was that I would sometimes accidentally sing the melody of A1 during A2 or A3.

I had the same problem

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#1673082 - 05/07/11 01:38 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: knotty


I had the same problem


Me too. With every one of these that I do.

Cus - glad to hear your finger is better. Take it easy.

re Topsy. I'm doing Turvy (lesson 7). Been trying to get my head around Topsy, which I didn't know before. The clearest recording I could get was Django Reinhardt. This is the head (sax solo) from that recording, freely done over the chords as written by Dave.

http://www.box.net/shared/lfkfz2mji8

Just want to make sure I've got more or less the right tune.

re Tenderly. Now I've not been sweating, just hadn't had the time. I had another look at it this afternoon. This is what I've managed to work out with the help of Transcribe (not yet looked at analysis here from cus and knotty).

http://www.box.net/shared/5l837u131n

First phrase is in E, though it finishes on a strange chord. Chords I could work out are F#m, then ?A7 then ??F7 or maybe ??B7??

Second phrase is in Eb. Chords are Fm7 and Eb.

Funny chord at end is A7b9.

Having got so far, I'll now look at what other people made of it.
_________________________
I am a competent teacher.


www.justfingers.co.uk
www.babysinging.co.uk

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#1673402 - 05/08/11 07:25 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: knotty

Once you finish all the voicing lessons (which can be pretty fast), you can start arranging. That's a very difficult and interesting exercise.


It would be the easiest thing in the world to take an hour and go through all the voicings in the book. I know the theory, mostly. But I think the learning does need to happen slow, because it is learning by absorbing, and by repetition. So my aim is to do a lesson in a week, and to stick to whole lessons rather than going ahead in a particular area. This gives me the incentive to deal with the whole package. I think I can keep up with a lesson a week.

The dominant voicings I'm on just now I find more confusing than any other, so I especially don't want to rush these. They remind me of Greek nouns. The minor 7ths may be another story.

Lesson 7:
http://www.box.net/shared/x7udg3delx
http://www.box.net/shared/x27xh6q8sf

I thought I would use the CD metronome as a backing, only I found it really offputting and started making loads of mistakes I don't normally make. So the recordings aren't perfect. Could practice these more, but feel like moving on. smile
_________________________
I am a competent teacher.


www.justfingers.co.uk
www.babysinging.co.uk

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#1673408 - 05/08/11 07:42 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Hi Ten
The blues one sounded pretty perfect to me.
The rhythm in the jazz one was almost perfect.
You're learning the songs very quickly if you are spending one week per lesson.

That is great that you are learning the original standard. I'm sorry I don't know Topsy at all. I only learnt the original standards when I was composing and my last composition was for Lesson 6.

When I reached Lesson 19, I needed to break up the lessons and move on.
The Hanons become more difficult and Bird is quite complex to sing.

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#1673443 - 05/08/11 08:44 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Hi cus, when I get to lesson 19, I might do the same. I imagine the composition and improvisation also takes a lot of time. What is your rate of progress just now, roughly, for the different things?
_________________________
I am a competent teacher.


www.justfingers.co.uk
www.babysinging.co.uk

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#1673446 - 05/08/11 08:46 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Lesson 7 is perfect, as usual.
Once in a while, it would be nice to sing the melodies from previous lessons.

>> It would be the easiest thing in the world to take an hour and go through all the voicings in the book. I know the theory, mostly.
You'd want to find a happy medium between 52 weeks and 1 hour smile Arranging is where everything really happens. It's the ultimate exercise. It's where you put everything you've learned into music.
But I guess 52 weeks isn't that bad :-)

I'm like Cus, parts of the lessons are harder than others. The hanons in particular get very tricky. And going fast in all keys took time. So often, I'd spend 2 weeks or less on the tunes and 3 weeks or more on the hanons. It's kind of up to you. I never did Left Hand Hanon. It's up to you to decide. If I did, it would be even slower.

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#1673832 - 05/08/11 06:19 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: knotty

I'm like Cus, parts of the lessons are harder than others. The hanons in particular get very tricky. And going fast in all keys took time. So often, I'd spend 2 weeks or less on the tunes and 3 weeks or more on the hanons. It's kind of up to you. I never did Left Hand Hanon. It's up to you to decide. If I did, it would be even slower.


The hanon of lesson 7 was easy, also the Lester young solo was the easiest assigned so far. I thought. I'm sure it all gets harder. To an extent, it's a question of how good you want to get at it. You spend as long as you want, the longer you spend the better you get. You can practice a hanon to 150. You can practice it to 120. Either way, just by doing it, you get better than you were before.

I've been watching the Ken Burns DVD. Fascinating stuff. I can see why people criticise it, but still, it's very interesting to hear, and a lot more palatable way to take in history than my usual wiki-surfing.
_________________________
I am a competent teacher.


www.justfingers.co.uk
www.babysinging.co.uk

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#1673977 - 05/08/11 10:18 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Hi Ten
I'm pleased you like the DVD. For me it was a great way to learn about American history as well as the main players in jazz history.
It was amazing that New Orleans was once the epitome of freedom yet almost overnight swung to the other end of the spectrum.
And didn't Jelly Roll Morton have serious ego problems, I was laughing so hard.

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#1673993 - 05/08/11 10:36 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: ten left thumbs]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs
Hi cus, when I get to lesson 19, I might do the same. I imagine the composition and improvisation also takes a lot of time. What is your rate of progress just now, roughly, for the different things?


I'm up to Lesson 20 for Hanons and singing, and Lesson 26 for tunes.

Hanons:
I started Lesson 20 on 1 March and am still struggling @ 152. I do 15 min/day.
As Knotty said, some keys are harder than others. Predominantly white keys and black keys are easy. For me, half white and half black keys are the most difficult - my E major always sucks cry

Good news: finger is totally cool now and I can practise the Hanons again.

Singing: ~ 10 min a day.
I've spent more than 80 days learning Perhaps. I don't mind because it's a cool tune. I'm also learning a lot about the bebop vocab such as chromatics, encircling target notes.

That Lester Young one you just learnt, Foolin' Myself, was a favourite of mine.

JOI tunes:
Blues tunes
Easy ones ~ half a week.
Hard ones ~ 3 weeks.

Jazz tunes ~ 3 weeks.

Improv ~ 45 min a day.
I spend more than 2 weeks per progression.
Don't take me as a guide, I came from an almost non-existent jazz base. I can see the day when you and Saiman overtake me smile

Own composition
None except for the purposes of improv. For each progression I do:
ascending lines
descending lines
ascending & descending lines

Bill Evans' composition
I like to work on this about once a week. I'm learning Very Early.

Arrangement
Again I like to work on this about once a week. I've done When I Fall in Love and am learning to play it @ 54 bpm.





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#1674055 - 05/08/11 11:57 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
KHen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 183
Loc: North America
Sorry to bust in on your conversation, but I just ran into this thread and was wondering if this book would be a good buy for me? I can read music, but am a new piano player that has little technique. I play in my church, just basic triad chords with root and fifth in the LH, but am interested in Jazz. Does this book go over technique at all? Would you recommend this book to me being that I am a beginner on the piano.

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#1674066 - 05/09/11 12:13 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Welcome !
So you can read music, did you have a bit of classical background ?
Are you interested in learning to improvise as a mid-long term goal ?

The Jazz Hanons in this course are an essential component in developing technique.

Cheers
custard

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#1674069 - 05/09/11 12:19 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
KHen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 183
Loc: North America
I actually played Alto sax for 8 years in Middle school and High school so I can read treble clef very well, but I can also get through the bass clef, albeit with some slower pace. Yeah, I'm interested in learning jazz piano and will eventually want to use improv while playing.

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