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Page 68 of 93 < 1 2 ... 66 67 68 69 70 ... 92 93 >
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#1825104 - 01/15/12 02:04 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Hi custard, yes, I think slow and deep may be the way for me too.

I've been going easy on the hanons as my r thumb still gives twinges every now and then. I do that hanon 34323 454321 and didn't give the fingering a second thought. If I did that fingering you mention then of course I would need to move at *, unless if happened to be a black to white that I could just slide.

However, I do side step in Applescraps, between bars 1 and 2, finger four moves from the F to the A. I could have done that with thumb under, but I just thought I'd practice this move.
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#1825132 - 01/15/12 05:13 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: ten left thumbs]
custard apple Offline
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Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Cool, I love the Lesson 27 Apple Scraps tune. I'm pleased you're trying the hand shift technique for Book 2 tunes.

And thanks for your fingering for the Lesson 27 Hanon, I look forward to trying it out tomorrow.

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#1825201 - 01/15/12 09:37 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
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Posts: 2999
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10,

What I do with each tune is play the 1357 and 3579 up and down before I really even attempt to play the tune. I might do that for 20 mins.
I would say a short progression like that, it might take less time.
Each key, yes, you'd have to redo it. But it gets easier because the sequence is essentially the same so your ear's already got the changes.

Ideally, once you have it, you run it every now and then before playing the tune, that kind of gives you wings before playing it.

The 3 most critical things would be
1) melody (none yet in your case)
2) scales
3) Arps.

Other exercises might be to do a composition on the changes.
PLaying basslines on the changes.
And if you want to go all out, singing roots, 3rd and 7ths (or inner line, which has less steps), but that gets really tough.

Overall you find the balance for you. If you're going to spend 30 minutes improvising, at least spend 20 minutes improvising. Leave 10 minutes for those exercises.

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#1825286 - 01/15/12 12:11 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
That's helpful, knotty. Overall I think I need things to aim for in improv practice. I'm aware I need to do it. I've just not yet found my groove of how to get there - like I have with other kinds of practice. I know all the tricks of how to practice sheet music.

I just now tried the 3579 arps, and it does throw me (where I can do this 1357 fine), so I should work on that.

Here is A Nightingale Sang again, I cleaned it up a little and re-recorded:


Edited by ten left thumbs (01/15/12 12:12 PM)
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#1825637 - 01/15/12 10:12 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: ten left thumbs]
custard apple Offline
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Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Hey 10
That was a nice harmonisation. It must be a satisfying feeling to have done it.

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#1825644 - 01/15/12 10:20 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
davefrank Offline
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Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 672
hi Laura, that was really nice, well done!..you might try this rule, #7 in the jazz snobs' handbook -never play a dominant 7th without altering something in it..at least a 9 or b9, etc..

You're doing great, thanks for posting:)

Dave

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#1825723 - 01/16/12 02:37 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Thanks guys! I'll bear that rule in mind, Dave. You have no idea what a footer I am when it comes to voicings, so right now I'm working on fluency and just getting the damn chord out before my audience has fallen asleep.
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#1825740 - 01/16/12 04:02 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: ten left thumbs]
custard apple Offline
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Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
10
I tried out your fingering for Lesson 27 Hanon. It's perfect and has made my task much easier. Nevertheless it's a hard Hanon, I'm starting it at 108 bpm rather than my usual 166 bpm.

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#1825741 - 01/16/12 04:03 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Please find the beautiful Lady Bird by Tadd Dameron, and my improv, maybe not so beautiful.

http://www.box.com/s/gdir0p77x75f1el7mqal

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#1825794 - 01/16/12 08:26 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
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Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Very nice 10.

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#1825797 - 01/16/12 08:34 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Cus,

That was a very nice solo.
For the head, you might want to sing along to this version. At least just the melody for now:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chJgX7KzxlA

I like how you included some repetition there. That's very nice. I'm sure it messes you up with so much to think about but you have to constantly focus on that feeling in 4. Towards the beginning, you have the 2 feeling, then gets better, then not as good, then better again. Just need to constantly keep an eye on it.

So do you want to do a new tune or stay with this longer?

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#1825813 - 01/16/12 09:33 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: custard apple
Please find the beautiful Lady Bird by Tadd Dameron, and my improv, maybe not so beautiful.

http://www.box.com/s/gdir0p77x75f1el7mqal


The lady is flying!

that hit all the right spots. smile I liked the triplet and I liked the staccato notes - ends of short phrases, with repetition. It's really inspiring for me, to see you doing this. smile
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#1825816 - 01/16/12 09:35 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: knotty
you have to constantly focus on that feeling in 4. Towards the beginning, you have the 2 feeling,



Ah, is that what it's all about? 4 rather than 2? I never got that bit.
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#1825826 - 01/16/12 09:58 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>> Ah, is that what it's all about? 4 rather than 2? I never got that bit.

You see how on written music those "quavers" are almost linked in groups of 4. See how you'd never see groups of 4 starting on anything but 1 and 3? To me, that's kind of what it's about. Thinking of phrases as being made of groups of 4s. Sometimes, playing in groups of 2 is fine though. Sometimes even 3 or 5. That gets crazy, but I think if you have the book Metaphors for the musician, it's explained there. The foundation however is groups of 4s.

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#1825828 - 01/16/12 09:59 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
by the way, if you listen to Fat's solo on Lady bird, pay attention to the blocks of 4. I think that particular solo is a good example.

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#1826021 - 01/16/12 04:43 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Hi Knots and 10
Thanks so much for your helpful comments.
Yeah you're right that repetition was hard as I also had to think key/arp/scale and remember to swing.

I do love the Fats solo a lot, much of it is long lines without much use of repetition, except for some swung triplets in the A2 section of the solo.
Do you agree ?

To get the 4 feel, I'm going to focus on long lines.
If I can manage a bit of repetition, I will.
And I might leave out the triplets.

I will stick with Lady Bird for a few more days.

Originally Posted By: knotty


You see how on written music those "quavers" are almost linked in groups of 4. See how you'd never see groups of 4 starting on anything but 1 and 3? To me, that's kind of what it's about. Thinking of phrases as being made of groups of 4s. Sometimes, playing in groups of 2 is fine though. Sometimes even 3 or 5. That gets crazy, but I think if you have the book Metaphors for the musician, it's explained there. The foundation however is groups of 4s.




Really ? When a phrase starts on 1+ or 4+ doesn't the counting in 4s begin on the 1+ and 4+ ?

Cheers
cus

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#1826057 - 01/16/12 05:32 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>>Really ? When a phrase starts on 1+ or 4+ doesn't the counting in 4s begin on the 1+ and 4+ ?
Then you'd say "a Slice of pizza, Slice of pizza etc..."

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#1826079 - 01/16/12 05:56 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
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Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
mmm, that's what I think I used to do.
But then when I listened closely to JOI, I thought that the first note of a phrase was accented regardless of whether it started on an upbeat or a downbeat.

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#1826287 - 01/17/12 03:03 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Groups of quavers start on any beat of offbeat of the bar. They last however long they last (not especially multiples of 4) and they tend to land on beats 1 and 3. If slice of pizza is designed to get me to think ahead to four notes (rather than this not and the next one) then I get it. Beyond that, I'm lost.

But, I am working more on the arps, as in setting the timer and making sure I stick to it - that's unusual for me.
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#1826359 - 01/17/12 08:26 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
OK, on the majority of written music I have, 1/8th notes are often written in blocks of 4. And I can't find an example of a block of them (linked) starting on an offbeat, but ok, I'll take that argument back.

I don't think I am able to describe the concept being demonstrated to me. And it seems I am confusing rather than helping. However, perhaps still 1 thing will help . Take the fats solo (or another) and sing it with the slice of pizza. Try to put the slice in various places in the bar and see which feels right. Do it on a small section, and do it slower than the original. Lady bird is a good example but others are good too.

Finally, I've always said that all the theory is not for me. I think it is by far more efficient and pleasant to get this stuff by ear. But, I don't want to post a sample of solo with the feeling in 4, because it would not be good enough :-)

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#1826406 - 01/17/12 10:33 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: knotty
OK, on the majority of written music I have, 1/8th notes are often written in blocks of 4.


They are. That's because there is a rule that says that is one of a number of permissible ways of writing them. Generally, you avoid beaming the quavers over beats 2-3. It just makes it easier to read that way.

Quote:

I don't think I am able to describe the concept being demonstrated to me. And it seems I am confusing rather than helping.


This may be true, but as you are normally so helpful, we'll let you off this time. wink

Quote:

However, perhaps still 1 thing will help . Take the fats solo (or another) and sing it with the slice of pizza. Try to put the slice in various places in the bar and see which feels right. Do it on a small section, and do it slower than the original. Lady bird is a good example but others are good too.


I will try this. In my head I can put slice of pizza starting on any beat, it makes no difference to me.
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#1826419 - 01/17/12 11:21 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>>I will try this. In my head I can put slice of pizza starting on any beat, it makes no difference to me.
Do you hear blocks of 4s, blocks of 2s, or no blocks at all?

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#1826434 - 01/17/12 11:44 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: knotty
>>I will try this. In my head I can put slice of pizza starting on any beat, it makes no difference to me.
Do you hear blocks of 4s, blocks of 2s, or no blocks at all?



It's just a long line. It starts where it starts. It finishes where it finishes. Numbers don't come into it.
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#1826502 - 01/17/12 01:18 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
10,

you're teasing me too much and now pulling me back into explaining something that will confuse you even more probably. But hey, you asked for it!!

Why don't we try to slice it and take a very short passage. The first few measures:
http://www.box.com/s/dvo79uo6eu9x0atm4jmc

Do you hear any blocks? Try to say slice of pizza, starting on first, then second note, then 3rd, then 4th. Does one feel better than the others?
So here are your 4 options for using our beloved slice of pizza. Take the sample and start saying slice of pizza. Once you say slice of pizza, repeat it or all notes. (4 or 5 times in all, it's a short sample). But before, we're allowed to add up to 3 syllables.
Option 1. Slice of pizza Slice of pizza etc...
Option 2. A slice of pizza slice of ...
Option 3. A Good Slice of pizza slice of ...
Option 4. Delicious Slice of pizza slice of ...

Spend one minute on this, and see which feel natural, which don't. Is there a winner, or are they all equal?

Cus, you wanna try it too?

This particular example starts on a specific beat, but later, we can find other examples starting on any beat. We can try that with other musicians, too. But for now, Fats being Fats, it should do..

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#1826628 - 01/17/12 04:52 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
davefrank Offline
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Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 672
this is getting too complicated. When improvising, say slice of pizza generally to get the basic feeling in 4 feel, start and end on the downbeat for a while, then you can start your line on an upbeat and say "a slice of pizza".

That's all.

DF

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#1826652 - 01/17/12 05:29 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: knotty
10,

Why don't we try to slice it and take a very short passage. The first few measures:
http://www.box.com/s/dvo79uo6eu9x0atm4jmc

Do you hear any blocks?

Cus, you wanna try it too?

This particular example starts on a specific beat, but later, we can find other examples starting on any beat.




Yup, this is a great example of playing in 4s starting on a downbeat.

In the B sec Fats repeats this upward scalar idea but starts on the 4+.
He accents the 4+ and then accents the 2+ as the 2+ happens to be the 5th note in the sequence.

I love Fats' strong feeling in 4s, it gives momentum to his long lines.
Keith Jarrett, Bill Evans and Jacky Terrasson are also good at it.

One dude who seems to have a less strong feeling in 4 is Sonny Clark. His swing is really hard, which seems to result in a feeling in 2. However if I listen very carefully, I think he's still implying a feeling in 4, it's just not as obvious as the above masters.


Edited by custard apple (01/18/12 05:45 PM)
Edit Reason: I meant 2+ (not 3+)

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#1826672 - 01/17/12 06:09 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Dave, forgive me, but I'm not done with teasing knotty.

Knotty, when you say 'blocks' - what exactly do you mean?

Here are 4 slices of pizza:
http://www.box.com/s/d4q3o26k8i9aoqx2i3pc

I'm a little happier singing SLICE of PIZza than slice OF pizZA, but apart from that, there's nothing in it for me. You can put that slice of pizza anywhere and it's just as tasty.

I know you want me to say it's more natural to put slice on beat 1 or 3. But I just don't feel it. It's OK, some people do maths by seeing the numbers as colours, and that works for them.
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#1826701 - 01/17/12 07:28 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: ten left thumbs]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
haha Laura, it's the first one you sang

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#1826717 - 01/17/12 08:09 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
It is quite funny actually.

So yeah, why not try what dave says? Just say its as you play. Because it sounds like if you do, its hard to get it wrong.

Btw, i think it might be worth singing the whole solo at that tempo. Do you have transcribe? If not, i figure out how to export in transcribe. Let me know.

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#1826921 - 01/18/12 05:54 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Hi
I've given Lady Bird another attempt.
1. Do you like the head any better ? I don't mind if you say Nuh !
2. Is my feeling in 4s any better ? I think I lose it in the 2nd half.

http://www.box.com/s/vpao5d20x072kfkejpax

Thanks for re-listening.

Cheers
cus

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