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Oh yes, it does.

Taking the practical useful things first, it sounds as if the student needs to practise more before she needs more lessons from you or anyone else. Also, that the father is bulldozing for external results (passing a test) and thinks that throwing money at a second teacher will make it happen. Also, that taking lessons with another teacher may harm your student's progress because of possible conflicting advice.

Therefore you need to communicate to the father that having a second teacher can be harmful to his daughter's progress because she will be pulled in two directions and it interferes with your ability to teach effectively. You could also stress that success comes through practice and that there are no shortcuts. In fact, having two teachers requires more practice of a student. If she cannot even practice what you give her sufficiently, how can she expect to practice material given by two teachers? Since success and progress are this father's priorities, this is what you should address. Having two teachers hinders progress. More effective and consistent practising helps progress - therein lies problem and solution.

You probably made a mistake by deciding you did not have enough time when they first wanted to talk about having another teacher. Since you didn't discuss it, they made the decision without you. Now you need to rectify this, without emotion or anger. The way this girl is showing you what she learned and the father not hiding it from you proves that they have no idea that this is a bad thing.

I would want to lose the anger toward the other teacher. You don't know how it came about, why he has done this, or whether he actually is out to lure your student away. By entertaining such thoughts you make yourself angry and resentful, which is not a good emotion, and it might come across to your student and the father - which is not a good vibe.


That is understandable. It's hard to tell whether the father questions your ability, or is looking for quick fixes and rapid progress coming from more teachers. It comes from practice.


That makes sense. I cannot imagine such short lessons. Is this your window? If the father is already paying for extra lessons (which can harm the student) then that same money could go toward extended lessons. Perhaps you can use what is happening to push through a new start:
- longer lessons
- more effective and consistent practising (and studying theory?)
- addressing the father's goals for his daughter (... and she feels how about it herself?)

There is an expression: "When handed a lemon, make lemon-ade." Unpleasant things can be opportunities if they are grabbed the right way.

It honestly sounds more like parental 'freaking out' than a case of the other teacher poaching your student.

Parents pushing for grade 6 in six months after a mediocre grade 5 exam - parents freaking out wanting more lesson time. You not having the time (at that particular moment) to discuss extending lessons. Parents hear about a teacher close by who can do supplementary lessons - problem solved!! From the parents perspective that is.

They may not have any idea that having two teachers can do more harm than good - and may just need sitting down and talking to them about that.

You don't know what this other teacher has been told. She may be aware of your long term commitment to your student.

If she did know - then yep... I too would be somewhat miffed at the situation too. But it might be easily fixed by talking to your student's father.

In a similar vein - I work as a therapist - and sometimes clients think that seeing two therapists is a good idea - two different perspectives. It's not that they deliberate try to mess up our relationship - it's just they don't understand the risks inherent in having two different therapists. But if another therapist was to go out of their way to take over my client - I'd be p*ssed.

But hopefully in your situation its more just a case of the parents being overinvolved - and it can be sorted out.

You and the parent agree that the student needs more lesson time. If you're both in agreement, then offer the additional lesson time.

As others have pointed out, there will be problems for a child when two teachers are giving different advice. It would make sense to see if the parent really wants "more lesson time" and see if you can meet that need.

Putting the child first, would mean parent choosing one teacher who can meet their lesson time expectations. It sounds like it's time for the parent to make a choice. I wouldn't get caught up in blaming the other teacher. Just focus on seeing whether you can meet the child/parent needs and see if they choose you to continue.

Getting irate over the situation doesn't do you any good. I've heard it explained that resentment is like drinking poison..."I'm so angry at you that I'm going to drink poison"...it hurts only you, not the other person.

The fear you have is that you will lose this student, and lose the income. In any relationship, one can drop out. You have no control over whether the other person leaves the relationship. Do your best to meet their needs, and let them make their choice.

Teachers are there to provide a service. Students should be free to receive opinions wherever they wish. You don't own your students. The idea of the other teaching having behaved wrongly is utter nonsense. If someone came to me and asked for a lesson am I seriously supposed to contact their teacher and ask their 'permission' to give a lesson? Who do you think you're kidding?

Sorry, but I feel no sympathy whatsoever- considering the attitude you have about this. It can be frustrating to feel you are losing a student, but if you can't cope with that, you are letting yourself down both personally and professionally. Venting your rage only makes you look like you are under the impression that having taught someone for a few years gives you a divine right to control their every move. It does not. Even if she's a better teacher who cares? Yeah, because it's all about your pride and sense of power and that comes first? Honestly, your attitude disgusts me in more ways than I can describe. The parents even raised this with you before and you told them you were to busy to discuss it- and then you complain about it? Unbelievable. If I had a teacher with such a self-important (not to mention xenophobic) attitude then I wouldn't be with two teachers for very long. Guess which one I'd be stopping with...

My nephew takes from two teachers. I had a fit, and explained to my sister-in-law why I thought it was wrong. What happened was both my nephews were taking from a lady down the street from them. I wasn't thrilled with her method (John Thompson only, one piece at a time), and told SIL that I felt they needed a different teacher. SIL found a different teacher for the older (Russian, since we're mentioning nationalities), but felt she was too strict for the younger. She then found a young male, new grad, who came to the house for the younger son. Older son was jealous, because his brother got to play a lot of fun stuff. So SIL has allowed her older son to also take from this young man. She says the two teachers do different things, so it complements. My nephew plays different music with the teachers (Chopin with the Russian teacher, Linus & Lucy with the other.)

The key is that she knows it's wrong, and that the Russian teacher would have a fit, so her son has been instructed to not tell. To me that is the greatest problem of all - that her son is being asked to be deceptive. The other issue is that he practices the fun stuff more. And that teacher is not as picky about technique, so he is developing some bad habits.

But they aren't my kids. I've noticed they quit talking to me about it, knowing I disapprove. But they also seem so shocked that their son has started lying to them or being sneaky about things. Why not? Isn't this a family value?

Point of my story is that I've had plenty of time to think about this. I have in my policy that it is not considered professional for one teacher to teach the student of another without discussion beforehand. And that I will not knowingly accept a student who is currently in another's studio, and that I appreciate being told in advance when a child is considering switching teachers.

In your particular situation, I see a few things:

Nationality is important only in that it appears to matter to your student's father. There is a connection there that appeals to him. You can't do anything about this.

The father is trying to help his daughter. He may not know this is the right way to do things. Some gentle education on this matter might be enough.

You might also try calling the other teacher, and explaining the problem. If she is professional, she may not wish to earn a bad reputation at this point.

You need to decide if you are willing to lose this student. Because if you issue an ultimatum, they may decide to switch. Perhaps out of national loyalty, perhaps out of convenience to the teacher down the street, or perhaps out of embarrassment at being called out.

If you are willing to compromise, you might divide and conquer. Ask the other teacher to NOT work on the pieces you are working on. Perhaps you can enlist her help to work on specific theory, or scales, or something that would allow you time to work more intensely on the pieces. And I would ask the teacher and the father to discontinue the double-dipping after the June event.

It seems to me that the biggest loser here, is likely to be the student.

Any 'professional' posturing and stance taking, can only cause damage in the long run, and may put the student off piano, for life.

You either work in tandem with the other teacher, and complement each other, ( with the student's complete and open agreement) or you cut the student loose, while wishing them well with their new teacher.

I don't think that is a professional matter, but a personal one. If a student of another teacher in the school where I work asked me for a lesson then I would tread carefully and take care not to step on the other teachers toes. However, that is not a professional issue so much as because I know them personally and would not wish to cause resentment among acquaintances. Perhaps in a very small town with not many piano teachers, the same might apply in general- where most other teachers are very likely to be known to you personally.


However, if someone were to call me and ask for a lesson, I would not consider it my professional duty to find out whether or not that person had another teacher or not and find a private investigator to locate them and put me in touch with one of the hundreds of teachers in my city to get permission. So in that respect, I see nothing remotely unprofessional about the other teacher's behaviour. It is wise to be careful not to sour relations with those you know personally but I really do not see anything faintly unprofessional about providing a service to anyone who comes to you and asks for it. You might as well say that a dentist who takes patients who had formerly been to other dentists has been 'stealing' patients. It's a service. There's nothing unprofessional about taking on a new client who requests that service. If anyone else objects thats a personal matter- not one of professional ethics. If you have not used to underhand tactics to wrench a student away from a teacher with whom you are not aquainted, but they have gone ahead and approached you for a lesson, you have no obligations other than to provide them with what they came for. On a professional level you should only answer to what your client asks of you. Anything else is about personal relationships, not professionalism. It's a free economy.

I disagree.

I think the free economy certainly comes into play when choosing which teacher to study with.

Since you brought up dentistry, and my background is medical, let me say that you are certainly free to switch dentists or doctors. But visiting two dentists or doctors simultaneously for the same condition will probably wreak havoc. Even when obtaining second opinions, it is usually preferable to tell the first doctor that you want to do this, and even ask for recommendations.

My son has found it helpful over the years to obtain occasional lessons with teachers other than his primary. In every single case, he has approached his primary teacher first, to ask. He has always received permission, but it is considered appropriate to ask first. Studying for any length of time with two teachers would not have been approved.

College students who wish to transfer from one music school to another are required to have a signed permission from the first college's teacher before the second will even consider them.

Our local music teacher's association has it in their by-laws.

In other words, it seems to be a professional consideration in my experience.

N
you are overlooking the fact that it is not a one time service or a "second opinion" but rather a long term "relationship". Switch shoes for a moment and consider how you would feel if you were investing time and effort into a student's piano education, especially if they are young and in the earlier phases of their studies, then have them "answering" to a second teacher with probably a different approach and strategies (say, kbk is in their neighborhood ).. I would think that after a couple of lessons you or the other teacher would have to find each other and figure out how to handle it.. Private detective not needed since you can ask the student for the coordinates of the other teacher.
I think Lollipop summarizes the relevant arguments overall. I know for a fact that my teacher would not agree to dual teaching unless I wanted to study something like theory in greater depth, which he has been encouraging..

I should probably stay out of this also, but from a student's perspective...



I couldn't agree more with Nyiregyhazi. You sell piano lessons. Period. If I as a student want to buy them from another teacher also... or from five other teachers and three online courses and a video seminar and a correspondence course on theory and a class at the local community college... what business is it of yours? If I pay you, either give me a lesson or don't. If not, I won't pay you anymore.

If you're claiming that this other teacher is some sort of vulture who's trying to lure your students away, that's a different story... but I don't hear you saying that.

Maybe having two teachers is healthy or maybe it isn't. Also, from the student's point of view it's certainly courteous to tell your teacher if you go for lessons elsewhere. I agree entirely. However, the point I am making is that it is the client's decision and that it is not professionally unethical to receive a client- as a dentist or as a teacher. If you don't want to tread on another's toes that is a personal issue. It is not unprofessional to receive a student and provide what they ask you to do. However, it is very unprofessional to start mouthing off if a student seeks help elsewhere and complain about that teacher and accusing them of 'stealing' students unethically. Nobody likes such a situation but the only professional way to act is to behave with dignity.

The thing about transfers sounds absolutely insane to me. It's clearly geared more towards the teacher than the student's wellfare. Totally wrong, in my opinion. Teachers are supposed to serve students. Not form a special mafia style-club to protect their turf.

I don't think anyone is saying they can't, "legally". Just that there should be communication between the 2 teachers and the teacher in question is also free to refuse the duplication. Furthermore, I believe that professionalism does have something to do with it. I am actually well aware of the "service" aspect of my lessons but I value my teacher's commitment and professionalism, which, perhaps arguably to some, go beyond the pay for play deal..

If they don't bring the other teacher into it, I won't ask questions. I see no obligation to do so. Perhaps the mafia is strong enough in some parts that this would be enough for someone to order a hit on me, but it doesn't work that way here.

I've lost students before after a few years of work. Nobody likes it. I also have students who take lessons from other teachers in their home country during the holidays. Good on them. I do not expect a formal request from the other teacher to go ahead in either situation. I'd have all sympathies if the poster did not choose to reach out for someone to have a go at, rather than deal with the loss. Such things come with the job. To look for a scapegoat is one thing, but I find the sheer extent of the tone in those posts absolutely disgusting. I am not going to withold honesty in my response. That poster need to hear it as it really is- if he's going to deal better with such things in the future. Teachers need to remember what they are- ie. providers of a service and not god-appointed musical guardians.

We may be in charge during the lessons- but ultimately the client is buying a service and they are really the master in the relationship. If you forget which way around that balance stands, you're going to give yourself a needlessly hard time when it comes back to remind you. If you perceive yourself as master instead of servant, you're simply digging your own grave.

I missed the part about the Mafia hit. Perhaps you live in a lot tougher neighborhood than I do. Here the preferable method of dealing with things is discussion.

I don't generally ask my students if they are studying with another teacher. But in the OP's case, it seems that the other teacher is aware. That being so, I think she should have at least asked if it was okay with the primary teacher.

My guess is that she didn't know any better, so I'm not as willing to vilify her. But neither do I think she can claim that since she didn't hire a private investigator she therefore had no way of knowing the student had another teacher.

I don't think this is a stable situation.

First, I suspect it's very inefficient to be bouncing back and forth between perspectives, especially when the two teachers may not share a common approach to technical development or to musical interpretation. For a young student this has got to be confusing.

It's not stable on an emotional level either. If the young one comes in bubbling about something new from the other teacher, and you think it's the wrong approach, you must come off badly no matter what you do. Competition for the affection of the child and their family is probably destructive all around, and given what I'm reading from DD, it provokes all sorts of unfortunate suspicions and emotions.

Next, how could the other teacher not realize that this was poaching? Perhaps eastern European teachers regard poaching with a certain nonchalance ... it's the game, after all, .... but I would have difficulty accepting the idea that this other teacher was blissfully unaware that a competition for this student was underway. I have difficulty believing that the other teacher finds this shared solution optimal either. I would assume, absent strong evidence to the contrary, that this other teacher eventually will make a play to get the student formally to switch teachers.

Having said all this, I do think Kreisler is right. DD does not own this student. Families are perfectly free to structure their use of professional teachers as they see fit. If DD wants to maintain an exclusive relationship, I think s(he) should lay out the issues to the family and ask them to choose. Explain the problems of shared control and suggest that the best solution is for the family to focus on one teacher's approach. Then get the ego out of the way.

They may choose this other teacher, and the reasons for their choice are whatever they are. They may opt for this teacher because they all make small talk in Polish about Pierogies and Kielbasa after the lesson. They may prefer the other teacher's sense of humor, or discipline, or whatever. Heck, maybe all people who have grown up in Poland are simply superior musicians, like Chopin .... yeah, right.

It really doesn't matter. At some point things that can't go on, won't. You just need to find the best way to get the family to that point, and get there with full information and minimal rancor.

I had a somewhat similar experience this past fall. A very hard-working student decided to take the previous summer off from lessons and when he returned, he played a piece he learned from some teacher at his camp. It was pretty complicated for his level of playing, and she had taught it to him by rote. It was obvious that she had spent lots of time with him. Because they had decided not to take summer lessons, I felt a bit miffed. After some questions I discovered that this teacher was aware that the student was taking lessons already.

I decided not to take it up with the mother, and instead started giving him more difficult pieces to play. He still takes from me, and when the issue of summer lessons come up again, I will remind the mom of this to point out that he obviously wants to keep learning over the summer.

Many teacher organizations have ethical statements to the effect of saying that every student has the right to choose what teacher they want. However, they also do not condone stealing students. I would call up the teacher, but be careful to not be accusatory in your tone. Work out a plan for the student and find out what this teacher is offering to the student. I woud then speak to the father and let him know why this will or won't work. Be sure you remain calm and try to keep It professional.

How much flagrant xenophobia does this thread need? Perhaps on the converse side, all you power-hungry American/Canadian types (cause you lot are like all the same sort at the end o' the day really, innit), are governed by mob style policies of self-protection and place personal earning before the students wellfare? So much for the American dream of the free capitalist economy eh? Looks like you're more likely to find that in Poland...

I can't speak for Poland but in Britain the idea of accepting a student is not traditionally regarded as "poaching".

If you think my statement was xenophobic you don't know me, and you don't understand my point. I'll state it more clearly so someone outside North America has a chance to comprehend. It doesn't matter whether the teacher is from Poland or from Mars, I don't think any normal human being could miss the obvious. Now perhaps the dad didn't tell this other teacher that his child already was studying with someone else. That's possible, but week after week the deception would become progressively more difficult to maintain. And if the other teacher is blissfully unaware that the child has two teachers simultaneously, the dad needs to be informed of the problems (in DD's view) that this is creating.

It may be 'obvious' to you that this is wrong, but I certainly don't live in a community where this would be regarded as "poaching" or where anyone would be accused of it for accepting a client.

As I say, perhaps in small communities where all the teacher know each other, this would be an issue. That serves to show that it's a personal matter, not an issue of business ethics. In the large city in which I live, I don't think many teachers would be under the impression that they might be breaking some kind of unwritten universal moral code by accepting somebody as student. Sorry, but it's highly offensive to claim that eastern-european teachers in general are inclined to knowingly poach students, contrary to moral instincts. I'd certainly have thought that would be 'obvious'. Not everyone abides by the unwritten codes of each locale- and not every one of those unwritten codes constitutes universal moral axiom of truth.