Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum How did my thread get closed, I wasn't done updating lol

My thread got closed because the topic got a little sidetracked by other people.

I called the dad today. I explained my concern about having 2 conflicting teaching methods and that I didn't think it would be best for his daughter. He told me not to worry and that he was only taking the lessons because it was 2 free lessons. He said he wasn't signing up for anything and that there was nothing for me to worry about.

So all in all, it didn't turn out as bad as my 10 page thread would have made me/us suspect.

Even though I am not very impressed by comments about me getting ready to cut my ties with this student, I guess I'm glad that there are a swarm of teachers ready to engage in this kind of topic from both sides of the coin. However, I don't know how this kind of conversation would go in person. No moderators to boot, block or save in real life

All is good I feel like I'm the only one who has weird piano related problems. Let's hear your problems, don't be shy

I didn't read much of your other thread, but there shouldn't be a problem with a student having 2 teachers. I have students who come to me to learn composing/improv, jazz, and go to another teacher for classical.

I ask them what the other teacher shows them for technique and practice, so that we don't overlap or give conflicting advice.

It's not a big deal.

Until the first time that the second teacher asks the student who that idiot teacher is who keeps telling you to do things that way.

"Not very impressed by comments about me getting ready to cut my ties with this student"? Then you're not impressed by the single most important piece of advice that you could have picked up from that thread. I don't believe anyone said "forget it, you've definitely lost a student- YOU LOSER!" or anything remotely like that. I think you really missed the hugely important point that a lot of different people tried to convey to you- which is that you always have to be ready for the possibility of losing a student at any time and with any one of your students- and that it's not good for you to bad-mouth other teachers in the event that they take them in etc. A teacher has to be able to accept it when it happens. Regardless of the fact that this has panned out okay for you, I'd seriously advise you to keep all those things in mind. At some point in time, suprises will come out of nowhere and they won't necessarily turn out as they did this time. As a professional you need to be ready to deal with that. I'm glad for your sake that this has gone as you wanted it to, but I seriously hope that doesn't mean you're not going to learn anything about the right way to deal with things that are beyond your personal control. At some point in a teaching career, such an event will not have a happy ending. That's not pessimism but practical awareness. You need to be ready to deal with it, either way. Circumstances have not forced you to learn a hard lesson here, but you still need to learn a lesson about attitudes from this- or you'll simply be saving up an ever harder lesson for later. And I really wouldn't be looking forward to hearing you vent about that...

I read a bit more of the OP's thread, Dark Dragon, seems like you are taking this WAY to personally and getting angry over nothing. A student can choose to leave whenever they want, this is not a friendship or anything. They are paying you for piano lessons, THAT'S IT!

I mean, I left my classical teacher after 12 years and haven't talked to her since then.

What country are you from Dragon? It might be that your culture treats these things differently.

Sure we are in for surprises, from scanning through the posts from other members, there have not been a lot of people who have gone through a similar situation (although a few have).

I'm not sure how much bad mouthing I did about the other teacher. All I said was I really don't agree with another teacher teaching my student and that a teacher from Poland is not going to have an advantage over me teaching in Canada (where we are currently located). I don't see any phrases where I said the other teacher was a total loser or questioned her abilities.

You guys are talking about this like students leave teachers all the time. I know it happens. Heck a dozen of my students were referred to me by another teacher. With my students, a problem that could range from not practicing, to a late payment, exam/festival scheduling conflicts, regular problems. I'm pretty sure someone teaching other peoples students is not a common thing or common problem.

Wizard of Oz
There is nothing wrong with taking lessons from one teacher for jazz and another for classical. I could totally see the benefit of that and wouldn't question that. I have one student who currently goes to another teacher for theory. I'll occasionally answer some questions she might have, but not mess with how the other teacher is teaching her. Just as I have never had a problem with the other teacher teaching my student any of the material we are working on.

To all the people who are on the side of "you're paid to teach and students can go wherever they want", we should assume that you are in favor of students being taught any material by any teacher regardless of their supposed commitment to working with you. It's about the kids and lets not have a power trip and take things so personally right?

I don't get why taking this situation online and reacting how I did matters at all. I didn't call anyone names, I didn't say anyone's teaching ability was worse, I was frustrated and wanted input, whats the problem with that? To the Dad's knowledge, I simply told him my conflict with his free teacher and he said it was nothing and over. He and the other teacher didn't hear anything about me venting, so whats the problem? I'm not allowed to vent here? I don't have a right to vent? I'm just paid to teach and are not allowed to feel anything?

Dark Dragon, you can vent all you want, but to me it just seemed like an overreaction. Like that you weren't good enough as a teacher so they had to find a new one. That student is still going to you and you are getting paid so what's the problem?

I've had new students quit after a month or a few lessons, things didn't work out so you move on.

Unless the student is on a strict classical program practicing certain pieces for an exam, it can be more beneficial to have many teachers.

Think of music students who go to Julliards (sic?) or Berklee, they have like 5-10 teachers like regular school.

The best students learn how to be self-taught and absorb things from everyone and take what is useful to them.

Feelings are okay, but if the parents read what you wrote on here (with the loaded implications about "Poland" and the extremely pronounced sense of possessiveness) how would they view that? Be upset by all means, but I wouldn't write anything on here you wouldn't be uncomofortable with any of the parties ending up seeing. Learning to deal with such situations without flying into a rage is important both professionally and personally.

Also, I agree entirely with the Wizard's above post. I don't think there's much that I'd be uncomfortable with anyone teaching my students. If I disagree strongly (eg. lazily taking the third finger in left hand root position arpeggios when a hand isn't actually small), I'm inclined to give a detailed explanation of why I feel I should "overrule" it (in this case because it continues to develop an already able finger and leaves a less able one lagging further and further behind). If I don't, I'm perfectly happy to work around things that may not necessarily be the very first thing I'd have suggested myself.

This passage stood out for me:

I sometimes hear my students say "well my music teacher said" or "my old piano teacher said". I stop them right there and say "they are not your piano teacher, I am". I don't think this is a power trip, I just want to make it clear who is in charge and who is not. If the money is given to me, I believe my say should come before any other teacher.

How interesing that you specifically chose to deny that it is a "power trip". So obviously it had occurred to you that there might be reasons why people would view it as such? It's not about who is "in charge". If you want to overrule something, you should earn their respect by explaining why- if you have a real justification. "You only answer to me" should not even come into it. If you do not a valid reason why something must urgently be overruled then, assuming it's about the student and not about you, you should be able to accept alernatives. Perhaps you view it in terms of needing to undermine the student's former training or alternate possibilities to put yourself as the lord of the manor. This may explain why you are insecure about external 'interference' with your teaching. However, I wouldn't assume that others work the same way. Teaching is really not about saying "just do what I say and ignore what anyone else told your before"- and not everyone works that way.

Next time that happens, how about if you stop them and try to convince them why your alternative is better- and leave the Stalinst rule out of it. If you can't, is there definitely any good reason why you should not allow them to do what someone else suggested?

Dark Dragon, the only thing that I would have to say about venting is that it's good to know when a teacher is doing so. Some people take time and effort to offer possibly solutions, help problem-solving, or share their experience in an effort to help. If someone only aims to vent then it is silly to make that kind of effort.

Personally, I would be more interested in learning how this evolves. The fact that the father was not planning to change teachers and that those were two free lessons that he took advantage of doesn't really resolve what you described so I don't imagine that you are stopping there.

You have told us that the student needs longer lessons, should be practising more, and consistently rather than on an emergency basis. The father who guides his daughter in practising also has the wrong expectations, wanting her to pass an exam before she has gotten enough skills to do so. It seems that he is lacking some knowledge which you can provide. I think a lot of us are interested in seeing how these things evolve, and probably expect a future "good news" post where you tell us of the positive changes that have happened.

Furthermore, I would remind people that this is a public forum that anybody can view. Venting here isn't just venting to a group of teachers. Venting here is like going to your local shopping mall, grabbing a megaphone, standing up on a raised platform and shouting "Attention All Teachers Here At The Mall, What Do You Think About This???"

If a matter requires discretion or diplomacy, this is the wrong place to discuss it!

Far safer to vent here with your peers than with your customers. But you run the risk of your peers not agreeing your anger is justified. Also, venting doesn't always reduce the overreaction, sometimes it reinforces it.



Now here I would suggest caution. We know what he said, but we don't know how honest he was. Parents don't tell the whole truth. I don't tell the whole truth. (I would never directly lie; but I might have made some decision about the future that I didn't feel like sharing with the teacher.)

In fact, the first time the teacher told me she didn't have time to discuss my child, I would have decided to find a new teacher. I wouldn't have started a confrontation, or told her why. I would just not renew the next month. "sorry, schedule difficulties." A phone call the next day making time for the discussion would have changed my mind, but only once. I don't owe the teacher the reasons, nor am I paid to help her improve her teaching. And, I'm a kindly sort, and have no wish to hurt her feelings. So I'd just quietly move on. Having that backup second teacher on the bench makes it easy. Most parents are like me. They aren't looking for a fight; if they become dissatisfied (and it can be for totally erroneous reasons) they just drop and you'll likely never know why.

If a teacher called me and calmly explained that having two teachers would be counterproductive for my child, I'd probably believe her. If I detected any level of anger in the conversation, I very well might choose the other teacher.

TimR
I think its very easy to say that you could drop a teacher because you could go to the next one. I think that you see a piano teacher as just a dime a dozen and that your child has endless teachers from which to choose from. Just because a teacher is a national piano champion and 50 years teaching experience and ladadadada, if that teacher and your son/daughter don't get along, you're not going to get optimal results. If your son/daughter enjoys lessons with the current teacher, has success, no communication issues, etc..., why pull out of the lessons just because the teacher didn't have time to address you the moment you requested?

I simply told the father I did not have time to speak to him at the moment because we only had a 30 minute lesson, and the lesson I didn't want to be late for was his OWN daughter. The competition was 1.5 hours away and it was our last chance to go over any problems she might have been having. If he was to drop me the next day because I didn't speak to him at that exact moment, that would just be a sad situation.

I think people forget or are unaware that your child's connection with the teacher is important. Once you have that connection, dropping the teaching just because you feel like trying another teacher is rather unfair to the child.

"I'm glad you got to know this teacher, but now its time to get to know another. You'll like her, now go!"

Last little thing before I go to work...

I don't need to justify why my method is better or worse to my student. My students come to me and put their trust and faith in me that I know what I'm talking about and don't have to explain why my method is better or worse than someone else. How about other teachers who have no business in the development of my student just mind their own business? That's no so hard. I'll ask a few of my fellow teachers at school today and see what they say. I highly doubt I'm going to get the "its all about the children and you're just paid to teach...that's it! They do what they want and you don't own them".

This will be fun

Dark Dragon, I thought you were concerned about your student. You presented a couple of issues yesterday that were impeding her progress and things that needed to happen such as consistent practice and longer lessons. What's happening there? Surely you are not that interested in people's opinions on things that don't matter. If you are a professional then whether others believe what you are doing hardly is a concern.


This is silly. Of course you don't own your students. You are helping them develop. So what happened?

If you want to keep that faith, telling them to just do as you say and to ignore something that has been told to them by someone else who they trust (for no reason that you are going to explain) is a risky move. Faith in authority needs to be earned and an inquisitive mind should be rewarded. I like nothing better than to hear a student voice disagreement. It shows they are at least thinking. If they have been poorly informed elsewhere, I want them to know why I am suggesting otherwise. You were talking before about confusion down to different approaches. Well there's nothing more confusing than being told what a former teacher said is wrong- ESPECIALLY without any justification. If you're doing things in a way that is better you need to explain why. If you can't, you ought to start wondering whether putting your foot down is justified and whether trying to stamp on an inquistive mind for the sake of having your own way is going to be of much use to either you or the student. Once you say that another authority figure is wrong- do you not realise that opens the floodgates for them to start wondering whether you might be wrong (especially if your justification amounts to "just do as I say")?

The teachers I remember with fondness and respect (either pianistically or academically) are certainly not those who came at me with 'the teacher is always right'. Even in primary school, I remember just how little respect I had for a teacher that wasn't even willing to listen the other side of the coin- nevermind give a thought-provoking basis for disagreeing with it. One such teacher I recall when I was 7 or so only strengthened my resolve to question unjustified authority. They never earned my respect or made me feel like I wanted to follow them blindly. I was no heck raiser, but I learned early on both that authority is not infallible and that those who portray the strongest authority (without first stopping to listen) are often the most fallible. Perhaps not all kids are like this, but I'd think very carefully about whether that type of attitude is going to do much for the 'trust' and 'faith' you speak of. That's the absolute opposite of what the 'just do it because I say so' approach could ever have inspired in me...

If I may say so, I see perhaps that You are reading a bit into the things that DD has said, Nyiregyhazi. I don't have any problem with a student asking a question about something that I've taught. In fact, I love the times that a student is actually thinking for themselves and asking pertinent questions. However, I don't think DD was saying that the first time or even the 2nd time a student referred back to a teacher they left previously. My assumption (which may be wrong, but I've been in this situation at times with transfer students) is that the student expects teacher #2 to be just like teacher #1. That is just not possible. When the student for the upteenth time refers back to what a previous teacher taught (especially when said teacher was not reliable but still held in high esteem by the student for nostalgic reasons), there comes a time to put one's foot down.

There are many times when a student should be inquisitive, and even questioning something taught that goes against what the student already knows. This is how one can arrive at the truth of the matter. This is especially important in voice lessons where the *vast* majority of teachers have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to technique. I find this less a problem in the piano world, although it does exist, so I can relate to where you're coming from, N. But I don't think that is what DD is doing here. She came on here upset and needing to vent to other teachers, and that automatically raised the hackles of some here who may be hypersensitive to teachers who are overbearing, abusive, possessive and read into her reaction. If you bother to look back at her previous posts, you would not see these qualities. I think giving one the benefit of the doubt is in order here.

Dragon you REALLY are in the dark man!! No proper student would want that attitude, in ANY field. Questioning how things done is the best way to learn, and just because it works well for you doesn't mean it works well for that student.

Ask 10 teachers how to improvise and you'll get 10 personal responses. Your role is to teach the student to become a better musician.

You need to rethink how to teach. What if your student isn't improving with your method, it could be your way isn't the best for him or her.

I think your ego is doing the talking, it's quite evident. You are insulted if someone says your way is wrong and chooses another person.

No - DD presented a problem and some people took DD serious as a teacher and listened. Specifically, she wrote that the student needed to practise more, and consistently, and needed to have longer lessons. Now that the story of a 2nd teacher is finished, these concerns seem to have vanished into thin air. All I am reading now is how DD will be proven right by getting other teachers to agree, or something like that. There was never any question about DD teaching wrong, so it doesn't seem very productive. What about the concern about the student? What about the need for longer lessons? What about the perceived need to learn more which got the father to take up the offer of the other teacher in the first place? The present attitude looks like strutting. I had hoped to take this person seriously because the situation of the student was presented reasonably and intelligently. What happened with all of that?

If I may say so, I see perhaps that You are reading a bit into the things that DD has said, Nyiregyhazi. I don't have any problem with a student asking a question about something that I've taught. In fact, I love the times that a student is actually thinking for themselves and asking pertinent questions. However, I don't think DD was saying that the first time or even the 2nd time a student referred back to a teacher they left previously. My assumption (which may be wrong, but I've been in this situation at times with transfer students) is that the student expects teacher #2 to be just like teacher #1. That is just not possible. When the student for the upteenth time refers back to what a previous teacher taught (especially when said teacher was not reliable but still held in high esteem by the student for nostalgic reasons), there comes a time to put one's foot down.


If I put my foot down, I always explain why. If I cannot convey to the student why something is vital (so they can understadn WHY, not simply do as told) I have no business overruling their previous teacher. How confusing for a student is it if the rule is always obey whoever is the authority figure right now and always go against anyone who had been before? They'll soon be wondering whether they should bother listening, or whether they'll just end up being asked to do differently again and ignore the current advice. No good teacher has any business overruling something just because they are the teacher. If any piano teacher did that to me, my respect for them would fall virtually to zero. I should probably never listen to a single command they gave me ever again- unless they earned my respect by showing me why I should listen to them.

If you bother to look back at her previous posts, you would not see these qualities. I think giving one the benefit of the doubt is in order here.

Actually, it's precisely because of both the passage I quoted and various other power hungry rants that I say this. Nothing much came across in that post other than the sentiment, "I'm in charge and you may not question me". That's how to prevent learning, not how to encourage it.

First off, I am not a her

Now that this situation with the other free teacher is over with, I've reduced the lesson time with the student, charged more and care a lot less.

...so I think you guys would assume.

Can't I have a day to teach my lessons and write a follow up post before the assumptions start? lol Technically I could post my reply during lessons, but that's interfering with me watching the game when I'm teaching lol! You need to give me time to reply to my own post which was only created what...yesterday? easy there

The father said to continue lessons as scheduled for this month and we will make changes next month to extend the lessons to the length that I had recommended.

I'm pretty sure that any student who walks in my door better show some kind of respect and not be staring me or my teachers down and making us earn respect. I'm not some bum off the street. I'm a teacher that has been referred to the majority of my students and they walk into my studio already knowing what to expect from all of my teachers and they have an idea of what we expect from them.

If a student is a transfer student, I never talk down about that teachers methods, I'll never say that my say will over rule in that case. ALL that I am saying is that when have the situation with my student under control, I highly reject the idea of another teacher coming in and confusing my student. She doesn't need another view point, angle, etc...some concepts she has yet to be taught by me and I just need more time, not outside help. In this instance, whatever this teacher says that contradicts what I'm saying, my say will overrule. Why? I am the hired teacher who the parents trust will help their daughter be successful, not this other teacher. I shouldn't have to explain to my student every time someone else tries to teach them a different way. You know those times where people say "its not my place to tell you" ? This is one of those times where the teacher should have said that and everything would have been cool.

where do babies come from - your parents tell you
whats 2+2 - your school teacher
anything piano related - your piano teacher, not just any teacher.

Would it not be safe to assume that if I am very strong in my feelings that I should have full responsibility for my student that I actually care about her and her development? She's not in Juliard, she's not 50 year old concert pianist, she doesn't need a swat team of teachers, she just needs to make sure she gets her assigned work done and have more time with me (which she will be getting in a week). Our connection is very strong and we have very effective lessons, it doesn't need to be needlessly disturbed by an outsider.