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#1366386 - 02/05/10 12:58 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
I did some tidying up, made some directories and sub-directories for the MP3 samples. Also created an upload directory for people to use.

Honing my craft while awaiting the CP1 sample.

Added my JV-1010 Session piano this morning:

FILE NAME:
- dp_bsd_v1.3_roland_jv1010_session.mp3
PLAYED ON:
- Roland JV-1010 Session piano, Echo MIA soundcard, recorded with Adobe Audition.
PROS:
- 2 layers (from spectral phase view).
- Large dynamic range (~60dB, vel=1:127).
CONS:
- Looped, actual samples are 3.5 to 0.5 seconds (lo to hi) with 1 to 0.5 seconds of crossfade.
- Looping obnoxiously static, decay tails sound organ-like.
- Stretching fairly obvious, stretch distances: 11,4,4,6,6,5,5,4,4,3,5,4,4,5,5,13.
- Layer switching fairly abrupt, switch @ vel=79.
- No sympathetic resonance.
- No response to partial pedaling.
OTHER:
- Anemic analog output w/ high noise floor.
- Fairly good for its time, now very dated.
- Date reviewed: 2010-02-05
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#1366486 - 02/05/10 02:57 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
One interesting thing about the output from this analysis is that it allows you to estimate the size of the physical memory required to hold the sample. Let's do this exercise for the Roland JV-1010 Session piano:

2 velocity layers * 16 actual samples / layer (number of stretch groups) * 2 sec / sample (rough average) * 44,100 samples / sec (sample rate) * 2 bytes / sample (assume 16 bit PCM) = 5,644,800 bytes.

5.7 MB.

Pretty freakin' tiny. You could put 175 of these sample sets on a 1 GB flash stick! Itself pretty tiny these days - the smallest I see for sale is 2 GB for ~$8. And at that rate, storage for the Session piano sample set would cost $4 / 175 = ~2 cents!

It's easy to understand why they played these games in the bad old days when ROM was expensive. Stretching in this case reduces the memory requirements by a factor of 88 / 16 = 5.5. Looping, assuming an average of 30 seconds is needed to fully capture a piano note, in this case reduces the memory requirements by a factor of 30 / 2 = 15. And 5.5 * 15 = 82.5 is a pretty whoppingly large factor to reduce the physical memory. Still, two fully unstretched and unlooped two-layer sample sets could fit on a 1 GB flash stick! A single four-layer sample set could fit on there too and would sound pretty fantastic in comparison.

I know the JV-1010 is really dated, but it's specs aren't that much different from the Yamaha P-120 (also out-of-production, granted, but less dated). These days I can see maybe playing these memory reduction games in a toy, but not in anything serious people pay serious money for.

With any luck we'll be leaving these bad-old-days behind us soon.
_________________________
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THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1366666 - 02/05/10 07:29 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
I'm redoing this post with PICTURES!

If people are interested in how I'm detecting layers, stretched notes, looping, etc. from the test file here are a few Adobe Audition screen grabs of the resulting MP3s:


The image above shows a spectral phase view of the stretch test (chromatic walk up the keyboard) of the Yamaha P120, where you can clearly see groups of three with identical phase - which means one sample is used to play all three consecutive notes within the group. As you might imagine, you can easily hear most of the transitions between groups.


Here you can see the spectral phase view of the velocity layer test (middle C from vel=1 thru 127, step=2) of the Ivory Bosendorfer, where you can clearly see 4 distinct groups of identical phase - so there are 4 velocity layers (at least for middle C).


Sometimes the velocity layers show up better using the spectral pan view, and in the above image you can see 8 distinct groups, hence 8 velocity layers in the Garritan Steinway sample.


In the above image you can see the spectral pan view of a note on the Yamaha P120. It starts out rich in harmonics, then about 3 seconds into the decay (@ the cursor) it turns into something that sounds wobbly and lamer - the dreaded LOOP! If you really think about it (and squint a lot smile ) you might be able to see the crossfade from sample to loop.


Finally, here is a clearer view of sample, crossfade, and looping on the Roland JV-1010, where looping is particularly egregious. The pure sample plays up to the cursor, the crossfade starts at the cursor and continues until the spectral view becomes largely constant approximately 1 second later - whereupon the crossfade ends and the pure, boring, organ-sounding looping is the only thing you hear, until either the key is lifted, or the loop hits the noise floor, or you go insane.

The sample itself is only 2 measly seconds long! And it's stretched over multiple notes! And I payed good money for this box, mainly for the Session piano patch! Granted, it was a while ago, but still...
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THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1366693 - 02/05/10 08:00 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Wow. You sure have been working at this project. As a "visual learner" I certainly find the graphics interesting and useful. I continue to follow this project, and am also particularly interested in the results for certain pianos.

Lawrence
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
Yamaha NU1 + Production Grand

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#1366757 - 02/05/10 09:14 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
I think I see a flaw in your system. You are not checking for how the sample sounds.

What if some one were to sample a $200 Craigslist upright that was not even in tune and has broken strings in a noisy environment using a Chinese knock off Shure SM58 mic. But he had tons of free time so he records all 88 notes with 128 velocity layers with each sample going for 5 full minutes and ends up wit a 10TB of samples.

I think your analyssi method would rate such a sample set as "the world's best".

Or for that matter what if I played you MIDI file on my very old FM synth based keyboard? I'm gussing you's score the old synthvery high, it never loops (or always loops depending on how you think about it) the velocity is handled with a continues filter, no steps and there is no note stretching. I think it would pass with 100%

But in both cases if yu tried to play music the over-sampled clunker and the Fm synth would both sound horrible.


I think we are seeing some of this effect already. I agree with your analysis of the Yamaha MP3 I sent in. You are saying (I think) that it is roughly as good as your P120. The sample is one dozen or so "free" pianos that come with Apples "Logic". And if you listen it sounds arguably much better than a P120.

Things like microphone placement and quality may matter more then the number of dynamic samples

So,... maybe you should include a midi file with a "best of" Beethoven exerts.. It would be fun to organize a blind listening test and see if the results match up to technical tests

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#1366774 - 02/05/10 09:35 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: ChrisA]
Volusiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/10
Posts: 770
First off, I must say I'm pretty impressed with this initiative by Dewster. I was wondering how he was able to tell apart all those things by ear, then the visual graphs blew me away, showing such a real clever, smart lad.

But I think ChrisA brought up a good point. I was wondering myself that the result of any modelled sound should be passing with flying colors according to the test parameters, because this test is sample-sound oriented, and modelled sounds don't have those same limitations, do they?

I understand why you'd want to remove the subjectivity part by coming up with such a technical test like this, but then all it will tell you is how detailed the sound was sampled and how much corners were (or were not) cut to get the final results. But you can't say much about the quality of the contents inside the waveforms, because that's the big subjective part that you want to cut out.

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#1366821 - 02/05/10 11:07 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Volusiano]
setchman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 166
dewster,

I have a couple of Galaxy II pianos for you're listening pleasure but I still can't upload them directly to the new folder you created. From "my side" of your account I do not see any upload button like I have when I'm logged into my own account. I see the folder there but no way to upload it.

If you want the files they are in my folder where the others are. They are the Galaxy II Steinway and Vienna Grand Download Editions, hence the DE in the file names.

I'm not trying to pile on here, dewster, but with the vast knowledge of music here, classical or otherwise, it wouldn't take much to come up with a few suggestions for simple pieces of music or excerpts (for the sake of brevity) that you could incorporate into your test. (Have you heard this somewhere before? wink )

I think it would be very interesting to find out if the pianos that look so good "on paper" are actually the ones that we prefer listening to.
_________________________
Kawai K-3
Yamha Motif XS8
BlackGrand.com

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#1366861 - 02/05/10 11:58 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: ChrisA]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
ChrisA, very good points! And no offense, but let me address them:

Originally Posted By: ChrisA
I think I see a flaw in your system. You are not checking for how the sample sounds.

Well, people can generally go to Purgatory Creek for that. I'm not really that interested whether it sounds like a Steinway or not if the sample is only 2 layers / stretched like crazy / 2 second looped samples / 5 MB - by very definition that can't sound very good. If they put a ton of work into it and play a billion notes at once it might sound amazing for a 5 MB sample, but that's probably the best thing you'll be able say about it. The rest of the time you'll be wincing and wondering why it sounds like crap in a solo recording.

Look at it this way: say someone is telling you that they have the most amazing digital picture of something incredibly detailed, but the picture size is only 50 KB. Without even looking at it you can tell right off that you probably won't be very impressed. If it's a 4 MB file you'll probably stop thinking about technical issues and take a look. Same thing.

Originally Posted By: ChrisA
What if some one were to sample a $200 Craigslist upright that was not even in tune and has broken strings in a noisy environment using a Chinese knock off Shure SM58 mic. But he had tons of free time so he records all 88 notes with 128 velocity layers with each sample going for 5 full minutes and ends up wit a 10TB of samples.

It would sound like an incredibly detailed sample of a POS, something you can't do with a 5MB sample no matter how hard you try. We're talking detail here. Once the ability to reproduce detail hurdle has been passed, then I start caring about tone. Before that, I don't really care, by very definition it's not a serious instrument, it's a toy.

Originally Posted By: ChrisA
I think your analyssi method would rate such a sample set as "the world's best".

Or for that matter what if I played you MIDI file on my very old FM synth based keyboard? I'm gussing you's score the old synthvery high, it never loops (or always loops depending on how you think about it) the velocity is handled with a continues filter, no steps and there is no note stretching. I think it would pass with 100%

But in both cases if yu tried to play music the over-sampled clunker and the Fm synth would both sound horrible.

This is more of a go / no go test for crap compression issues with the sample set, not a BUY IT NOW! test. People should know how much sample they're actually getting IMO as up till now at least it has been a huge determinant in terms of sound quality.

And a single layer in a sampled DP is usually a bad thing, and I would put it in the CON column.

Originally Posted By: ChrisA
I think we are seeing some of this effect already. I agree with your analysis of the Yamaha MP3 I sent in. You are saying (I think) that it is roughly as good as your P120. The sample is one dozen or so "free" pianos that come with Apples "Logic". And if you listen it sounds arguably much better than a P120.

Things like microphone placement and quality may matter more then the number of dynamic samples

So,... maybe you should include a midi file with a "best of" Beethoven exerts.. It would be fun to organize a blind listening test and see if the results match up to technical tests

I went back and looked at your sample again yesterday (I'm slowly figuring this out), let's compare them again:

------------------------------------------------------
- Unknown small sample set from unknown Yamaha piano -
------------------------------------------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.3_yam_studio.mp3
- Unknown setup.
PROS:
- Looped, but fairly well done.
- OK sympathetic resonance.
- 2 layers with some kind of filter? (from spectral phase view).
CONS:
- Rather rapid note decay.
- Poor dynamic range (~30dB, vel=1:127).
- Looping of higher notes fairly obvious.
- See evidence of at least 2 note stretching.
- Abrupt layer switching.
- Does not respond to partial pedaling.
OTHER:
- Volume in MP3 file too low! (please try for -1dB peak)
- Date reviewed: 2010-02-04

----------------
- Yamaha P-120 -
----------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.3_yamaha_p120.mp3
- Echo MIA soundcard, Sonar 6, Adobe Audition.
PROS:
- 3 layers (from spectral phase view).
- Sympathetic resonance.
- Responds to partial pedaling.
- Huge dynamic range (~68dB, vel=1:127).
CONS:
- Looped, most loops sound wobbly at first, weak at the end.
- Weak sympathetic resonance.
- Obvious stretching.
- Layer switching is rather abrupt.
OTHER:
- Samples are 3.5 to 1 seconds (lo to hi) with 1 to 0.5 seconds of crossfade.
- Stretch distances: 8,3(x25),5 = 31 groups.
- Layer switch @ vel=88 and 102.
- Date reviewed: 2010-02-04


So the free Apple piano is probably a 2 layer (w/ filter?) with rapid note decay, poor dynamic range, and doesn't respond to partial pedaling. This exercise isn't necessarily to pit one DP against another, but more to expose what is going on in each. That said, the P120 definitely has better specs, and sounds better to me (IMO). And in this case I don't believe that's a coincidence.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1366880 - 02/06/10 12:19 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: setchman]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: setchman
I have a couple of Galaxy II pianos for you're listening pleasure but I still can't upload them directly to the new folder you created. From "my side" of your account I do not see any upload button like I have when I'm logged into my own account. I see the folder there but no way to upload it.

If you want the files they are in my folder where the others are. They are the Galaxy II Steinway and Vienna Grand Download Editions, hence the DE in the file names.

Thanks setchman! I snagged the files and will analyze them and upload them to the archive tomorrow. I can log out and still upload to my folder, so I'm not sure what's going on. Others are having the same problem, so it's not just you. I guess as long as people can post them somewhere where I can get at them that's the main thing.

Originally Posted By: setchman
I'm not trying to pile on here, dewster, but with the vast knowledge of music here, classical or otherwise, it wouldn't take much to come up with a few suggestions for simple pieces of music or excerpts (for the sake of brevity) that you could incorporate into your test. (Have you heard this somewhere before? wink )

I think it would be very interesting to find out if the pianos that look so good "on paper" are actually the ones that we prefer listening to.

I hear you, and do agree. But you can post samples to Purgatory Creek for sound issues, I guess I'm more interested in what's holding the vast majority of DPs back from being serious instruments at this point than what they sound like. Hopefully soon that will be just the opposite.
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The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1366887 - 02/06/10 12:27 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Volusiano]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Volusiano
But I think ChrisA brought up a good point. I was wondering myself that the result of any modelled sound should be passing with flying colors according to the test parameters, because this test is sample-sound oriented, and modelled sounds don't have those same limitations, do they?

I hope I addressed this concern somewhat above - the more layers the merrier in a sampled DP; no layers are the norm for a modeled DP - and both should be judged from that perspective. I did test the TruePianos demo, a supposed sample / model hybrid. It had weird phasey stereo issues in the decay and obvious stretching. Any approach can sound either good or bad, particularly individual notes.

Originally Posted By: Volusiano
I understand why you'd want to remove the subjectivity part by coming up with such a technical test like this, but then all it will tell you is how detailed the sound was sampled and how much corners were (or were not) cut to get the final results. But you can't say much about the quality of the contents inside the waveforms, because that's the big subjective part that you want to cut out.

This isn't an attempt to remove subjectivity of sound in any way. It's more of an exercise in cutting though the hype - a test to see if it is even possible for a given DP to sound good. Up close most of them look and sound fairly ugly.

Most of the PC-based samplers & modelers I've tested so far I would be very happy to have in a DP.


Edited by dewster (02/06/10 12:48 AM)
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1366891 - 02/06/10 12:37 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Melodialworks Music]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
I continue to follow this project, and am also particularly interested in the results for certain pianos.

Those certain pianos wouldn't by any chance have a "CP" in the model name, would they?
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1366896 - 02/06/10 12:42 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Volusiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/10
Posts: 770
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: Volusiano
But I think ChrisA brought up a good point. I was wondering myself that the result of any modelled sound should be passing with flying colors according to the test parameters, because this test is sample-sound oriented, and modelled sounds don't have those same limitations, do they?

I hope I addressed this concern above - the more layers the merrier in a sampled DP; no layers are the norm for a modeled DP - and both should be judged from that perspective.

Originally Posted By: Volusiano
I understand why you'd want to remove the subjectivity part by coming up with such a technical test like this, but then all it will tell you is how detailed the sound was sampled and how much corners were (or were not) cut to get the final results. But you can't say much about the quality of the contents inside the waveforms, because that's the big subjective part that you want to cut out.

This isn't an attempt to remove subjectivity of sound in any way. It's more of an exercise in cutting though the hype - a test to see if it is even possible for a given DP to sound good. Up close most of them look fairly ugly.


Hey, thanks for the explanation, Dewster. I understand better where you're coming from on all this now.

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#1366938 - 02/06/10 03:08 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Volusiano]
7even Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/09
Posts: 151
Very cool. I should put my YPG-635 to the test.. I wonder how quickly the looping starts on it. Interested in seeing some results for the RD-700GX too laugh
_________________________
Now: RD-700NX
Someday: Steinway concert grand :|

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#1366949 - 02/06/10 04:18 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: 7even]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
This could be a brilliant resource. If used in conjunction with Purgatory Creek (for subjective analysis), you could make better informed purchase decisions.

If someone would give me an idiots guide (and I really do mean idiot), I would do something with my V-Piano so you could compare the behaviour of a fully modelled instrument. Presumably this is still layered but limited by the technical operating spec of MIDI, ie, 127 layers?

For info I use a Macbook Pro and do have a USB flash drive device if needed so tell me what to do and I'll have a go with the V.

Thanks Dewster for taking the time to create this level of insight for us all.

Steve
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1367028 - 02/06/10 09:33 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: EssBrace]
Alden Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/06
Posts: 211
Loc: Portland, Oregon, USA
dewster - I've been following and immensely enjoying the thread. When time permits (i.e. when Larry turns me loose from the next PB issue) I'll record and UL the AG N2 and the massively sampled Vienna Imperial.

Great job!
_________________________
Alden Skinner
DP Technical Advisor, PianoBuyer Magazine
| VSL Imperial | Pianoteq Pro | Logic Pro |

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#1367087 - 02/06/10 11:06 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Alden]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Thanks for the encouragement!

OK, I will consider adding a small musical section to the test file.

My problem is I don't exactly know what to put in there, and can't grab random MIDI from the web without possible copyright issues and such.

I'm thinking ideally:
- It shouldn't be longer than maybe 30 seconds (don't want to extend the test too much).
- It should be dynamic (low, mid, and high velocity sections, not necessarily in that order).
- It should cover most of the keyboard note range one way or another.

Anyone have any ideas? I'm willing to listen to any MIDI or MP3 files you might want to direct me to or send my way.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1367088 - 02/06/10 11:08 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Alden]
setchman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 166
dewster,

I just uploaded the first piano preset "Full Concert Grand" from the Yamaha Motif XS8. It will be interesting to see, as you get more Yamaha DPs, how Yamaha changes their sampled CFIIIS for the various DPs.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=5da74615b2837725c79b87b207592a1c0742218a332edd73a543906a5faff527
_________________________
Kawai K-3
Yamha Motif XS8
BlackGrand.com

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#1367104 - 02/06/10 11:34 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: dewster
Thanks for the encouragement!

OK, I will consider adding a small musical section to the test file.

My problem is I don't exactly know what to put in there, and can't grab random MIDI from the web without possible copyright issues and such.

I'm thinking ideally:
- It shouldn't be longer than maybe 30 seconds (don't want to extend the test too much).
- It should be dynamic (low, mid, and high velocity sections, not necessarily in that order).
- It should cover most of the keyboard note range one way or another.

Anyone have any ideas? I'm willing to listen to any MIDI or MP3 files you might want to direct me to or send my way.


You should feel encouraged! A great response to your project!

A generic MIDI file won't work, in terms of assessing quality, especially if your goal is to compare pianos. The velocities will be inconsistent from piano to piano. That's one of the big problems with purgatory. Each instrument (DP or samples) needs to be played, to create its own unique MIDI file - to be used effectively only to play back the DP or sample in question.
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
Yamaha NU1 + Production Grand

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#1367115 - 02/06/10 12:01 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Melodialworks Music]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
The velocities will be inconsistent from piano to piano. That's one of the big problems with purgatory.

I do agree with you Lawrence. Some MIDI velocity shifting / scaling should have been applied to many of the samples over there.

But there probably isn't a lot of harm in adding some short musical snippet to the end of the DPBSD file, particularly if it is kept fairly short.
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The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1367204 - 02/06/10 02:04 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: setchman]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: setchman
I have a couple of Galaxy II pianos for you're listening pleasure... the Galaxy II Steinway and Vienna Grand Download Editions, hence the DE in the file names.


Hi setchman,

I reviewed them today and uploaded your MP3 files to the archive. The Steinway in particular is very nice! Not sure what's going on with the partial pedal in both, very odd.

Also, I seem to be running across a fair amount of sound files that I can't do any spectral analysis on at all. It's either a bug in Audition, or extensive phase processing of the sample set (I have suspected the latter even before seeing this issue as it makes sense). Here is a picture:



Makes my job a lot harder. The Vienna Grand was one of these strange phase files, the Steinway was not.


---------------------------------------------
- Galaxy II Vienna Grand (download edition) -
---------------------------------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.3_galaxy2DE_viennagrand.mp3
PROS:
- Nice long decays, no looping.
- Wide dynamic range (~53.5dB, vel=1:127).
- 7 or 8 velocity layers (from waveform view).
- Fairly good layer matching.
- Some kind of sympathetic resonance going on.
CONS:
- Obviously stretched.
- Stretch distances: 2(x17),4,2(x7),3,2(x10),3,2(x5) = 41 groups.
- No key-up or pedal samples.
- C9 sounds pretty weird.
- No response to partial pedaling.
- Bizarre partial pedal event: pedal 50%=>75% note sounds before being played!
OTHER:
- Linear phase (?) prevents spectral inspection.
- Volume in MP3 file very good.
- Date reviewed: 2010-02-06



-----------------------------------------
- Galaxy II Steinway (download edition) -
-----------------------------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.3_galaxy2DE_steinway.mp3
PROS:
- Nice long decays, no looping.
- Wide dynamic range (~46dB, vel=1:127).
- Fairly good velocity layer matching.
- 8 velocity layers.
- Velocity switch @ vel=45, 52, 70, 80, 90, 102, 112.
- Very nice sympathetic resonance.
CONS:
- C2 sample just abruptly ends.
- No key-up or pedal samples.
- Obviously stretched (spectral phase view).
- Stretch distances: 2(x44) = 44 groups.
- No response to partial pedaling.
- Bizarre partial pedal event: pedal 50%=>75% note sounds before being played!
- A bit of strangeness near the noise floor.
OTHER:
- Volume in MP3 file very good.
- Date reviewed: 2010-02-06
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THE RD-700NX Thread!
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#1367243 - 02/06/10 03:08 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: setchman]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Incoming:

-------------------------------
- Yamaha YDP223 Grand Piano 1 -
-------------------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.3_yamaha_ydp223_gp1.mp3
PROS:
- Long note decay.
- Looping isn't too obnoxious.
- Huge dynamic range (~65dB, vel=1:127).
- I believe this is a very smoothly blended 3 layer sample set (spectral pan display).
- Layer switch (?, switch not audible) @ vel=80, 94.
- Responds to partial pedaling.
CONS:
- Obviously looped.
- Lower looping rather realistically wobbly, higher looping unrealistically static.
- Samples are 3 to 1 seconds (lo to hi) with 1 to 0.5 seconds of crossfade.
- Obviously stretched, group transistions farily audible.
- Stretch distances: 2,3(x28),2 = 30 groups.
- No real variation in timbre at higher velocities.
- No obvious sympathetic resonance, though there are subtle differences w/ pedal down
- No key-up or pedal samples.
OTHER:
- Date reviewed: 2010-02-06
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
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#1367303 - 02/06/10 04:29 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: setchman]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: setchman
I just uploaded the first piano preset "Full Concert Grand" from the Yamaha Motif XS8. It will be interesting to see, as you get more Yamaha DPs, how Yamaha changes their sampled CFIIIS for the various DPs.

Just reviewed it and archived the MP3.

Not very impressive, particularly for a newish instrument currently selling for $3.6k. The decay times are fairly short. Otherwise typical sample times, layers, stretching, symp res, etc. for Yamaha (and by that I mean typically mediocre). The P-120 tests better, which is rather shocking.

---------------------------------------
- Yamaha Motif XS8 Full Concert Grand -
---------------------------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dp_bsd_v1.3_Yamaha_MotifXS8_FullConcertGrand.mp3
PROS:
- Looping isn't too obnoxious @ lows & mids.
- Decent dynamic range (~33dB, vel=1:127).
- 3 layer sample set (waveform & spectral phase displays).
- Layer switch @ vel=70, 106.
- Sympathetic resonance, though it's fairly fake sounding - echoy and reverby.
- Key-up samples of some sort, though it sounds like a strange tone.
- Responds to partial pedaling.
CONS:
- Fairly quick note decay with some buzzing near the noise floor (could be a recording issue).
- Obviously looped.
- Samples are 3 to 1 seconds (lo to hi) with 1.5 to 0.5 seconds of crossfade.
- Lower & mid looping rather realistically wobbly, highs unrealistically loopy.
- Obviously stretched, group transitions fairly audible.
- Stretch distances: 2,3(x10),2,3,4,3,3,4,2,4,2,3,1,2,1,2,3(x5),5 = 31 groups.
- Obvious velocity layer switching, some kind of filter switch as well @ v=50.
- No pedal samples.
OTHER:
- Volume in MP3 file very good, though dynamic range seems like it may be limited.
- Date reviewed: 2010-02-06
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#1367354 - 02/06/10 05:44 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
If someone out there could run the DPBSD MIDI file thru their Korg SP250 and/or LP350 maybe we could resolve once and for all whether the sample sets are the same or not.
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#1367552 - 02/06/10 10:08 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: dewster

OK, I will consider adding a small musical section to the test file.

My problem is I don't exactly know what to put in there, and can't grab random MIDI from the web without possible copyright issues and such.

I'm thinking ideally:
- It shouldn't be longer than maybe 30 seconds (don't want to extend the test too much).
- It should be dynamic (low, mid, and high velocity sections, not necessarily in that order).
- It should cover most of the keyboard note range one way or another.

Anyone have any ideas? I'm willing to listen to any MIDI or MP3 files you might want to direct me to or send my way.


If the file is going to include the use of the hold/damper pedal, again, it will not translate from piano to piano. I know that in the (bad) old days, I would record (MIDI) a piece using one sample, and then try and play it back at a later date with a new and improved sample. Yikes. I remember often having to edit velocities like crazy AND changing the timing of ped ON and OFF messages. Not fun.

In my old age, now, I simply record again. Way better than doing a ton of editing. (I even dislike a bit of editing now). Of course, sometimes the original version was an improvisation, and "spot on" and it's difficult to replicate the magic. (Magic. Part of what made the improv so good in the first place).

Lawrence
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
Yamaha NU1 + Production Grand

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#1367589 - 02/06/10 11:47 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Melodialworks Music]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Melodialworks Music
If the file is going to include the use of the hold/damper pedal, again, it will not translate from piano to piano. I know that in the (bad) old days, I would record (MIDI) a piece using one sample, and then try and play it back at a later date with a new and improved sample. Yikes. I remember often having to edit velocities like crazy AND changing the timing of ped ON and OFF messages. Not fun.

I've been in the MIDI controller 64 time nudge hell myself, so I know from whence you cometh, Lawrence.

Sonar has pretty good MIDI filters though, so you just select them all, drive them high or low, and pull them back a bit. The continuous damper controllers are the worst IMO.
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#1367601 - 02/07/10 12:23 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Glenn NK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 457
Loc: Victoria BC
Very interesting test (and much work I suspect - my hat's off to Dewster for undertaking this gigantic project - it will be very useful to we DP types).

In regard to Pianoteq and dynamics - Dynamics are adjustable.

If a midi file has a large dynamic range, lowering the setting will reduce the overall dynamic range when the file is rendered to wave. Rendering means Pianoteq converts a previously recorded midi file to a wave file (takes much less time than playing and recording). An advantage of this is that even if the max peak is -30dB in the rendered wave, it can be maxed with no loss in sound quality (the soundcard is not used).

There is also a Limiter which is used to prevent clipping when the output hits the ceiling.

Glenn

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#1367663 - 02/07/10 04:25 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
madshi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 62
Originally Posted By: dewster
I seem to be running across a fair amount of sound files that I can't do any spectral analysis on at all. It's either a bug in Audition, or extensive phase processing of the sample set

Hmmmm... Can you successfully "play" these files in Audition? Maybe the MP3 decoder used by Audition fails? You could try converting the MP3 to WAV externally and then load the WAV file into Audition. You could also try the demo version of iZotope RX. I'm using that myself sometimes for spectrum stuff...

Love the DP BSD project, btw! Can't wait to see Kawai, Roland and Yamaha CP1 results...

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#1367753 - 02/07/10 10:06 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: madshi]
R0B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 1439
Loc: Australia
Do you want a Kawai MP-5 sample?

If so, I will try to find time to send one, tomorrow (Aussie time)
If you already have one, ignore this post

Rob
_________________________
Rob

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#1367777 - 02/07/10 10:51 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Glenn NK]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Glenn NK
Rendering means Pianoteq converts a previously recorded midi file to a wave file (takes much less time than playing and recording). An advantage of this is that even if the max peak is -30dB in the rendered wave, it can be maxed with no loss in sound quality (the soundcard is not used).

I use MIDI to wave rendering a lot in Pianoteq, one of it's best features IMO. Another advantage of this feature is you never get glitches or lost notes on older PCs. Being non-real-time, it's free to take as much or as little real CPU time as necessary to get the job done.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1367828 - 02/07/10 11:51 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: madshi]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: madshi
Can you successfully "play" these files in Audition?

Yeah, they play fine, and the waveform view works fine as well. For these types of files I have to rely heavily on envelopes and my ear to detect stretch and layer groups.

I've only seen this collapsed phase anomaly in PC samplers so far, not in real DPs. Two of the MP3 files I made myself in Audition, one I received from a poster. Here is the list:

- Galaxy II Vienna Grand (download edition)
- VintAudio C7 Close Miked 6 layer
- Windows Media Player

OK, I just went back and re-recorded the Windows Media Player piano *ugh* through my Echo Mia soundcard (SPDIF I/O) and the collapsed phase anomaly exists in the wave file before conversion to MP3. So it seems almost certainly something that exists in the sample set.

Extensive phase processing may help blending, particularly for subtle things like sympathetic resonance of multiple pedal down notes playing together. It could help with velocity layer blending too but, outside of the Yamaha YDP223 so far, I don't see evidence of anyone doing that.
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