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#1425105 - 04/27/10 11:42 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: bkmz]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4339
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: bkmz
The lowest and the highest velocity samples must have different spectral pictures.


Spectral pan view of TP Diamond compressed layer test edited down to velocity 19 (left) and 127 (right).

OK, I agree, the layer "stretching" is probably just a filter. But the louder hammer brightness might be an extra sample overlayed on top, with the filter applied to it. I imagine this is what Yamaha calls "Spectral Component Modeling".


Edited by dewster (04/27/10 11:45 AM)
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#1425148 - 04/27/10 12:38 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
THose tow pictures tell us it is NOT a simple high pass or low pas filter being applied. All filters like that have a roll off. I think now that the sound is synthesised, not played from a sample at all. The synthesis may be based on samples or anlyisis of sample. It looks to me like the lower velocity just simply never have the higher order overtones, not filtered just not synthesised.

I think what is stored inside TruePianos is almost exactly the picture we see.

If I'm right this is a lot like the way Roland describes their "Super natural" technology. They record the amplitude of the varoius overtones and how the amplitude changes over time. Then when yo move some parameters (hammer hardness) it makes adjustments to how the overtones play out over time. Finally when you strike the key the sound is synthesised. Seem like TP is doing the same as Roland. Both are sample based but the samles are very, highly processed to the point where there can no longer even be called "recordings", "Measurements" is a better terms I think.

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#1425168 - 04/27/10 12:54 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: ChrisA]
bkmz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 142
Loc: Belarus
dewster
On this very close look It seems that samples are not exactly the same - but still, the differences are extremely subtle.

ChrisA
TP is not like Roland SN at all. Roland has obvious visible and audible variations between all velocities, similar to those in Vienna Imperial (I don't have picture of its layers right now, maybe dewster can post it).

TP is just a primitive limited sampler - stretched, looped, one-layered.
_________________________
ex-Yamaha CLP 330

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#1425180 - 04/27/10 01:06 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: bkmz]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4339
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: bkmz
TP is just a primitive limited sampler - stretched, looped, one-layered.

I think they may be using a second additive layer for the string brightness / hammer sound. But, yeah, other than that it seems rather primitive.
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THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1425191 - 04/27/10 01:14 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
bkmz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 142
Loc: Belarus
dewster

Maybe.
_________________________
ex-Yamaha CLP 330

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#1425211 - 04/27/10 01:40 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: dewster
It makes absolutely no sense to me why many critical sound features are missing when the HP-307 plays a MIDI file - shouldn't all features enabled be the default? Roland is leaving everyone to their own devices, flailing around trying to turn them back on, without so much as even a MIDI spec. It's almost like a major manufacturer isn't standing behind their product or something. People want to buy these things and have them just work, that's why they shell out the big bucks.


There might be reasons for that:

1) Patent license restrictions.
2) Usage of closed source third party software.
3) Maybe the work is done by more than one processor and it is technically impossible to have then both responding to MIDI.

Probably they will not tell the true reason and will not fix this in an update. It might be impossible to fix due to technical or licensing reasons.

Now for me the only conclusion is: Dont spend tons of money for that proprietary stuff, use softwarepianos ;-)

Peter
_________________________
1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6


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#1425239 - 04/27/10 02:08 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: hpeterh]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4339
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: hpeterh
There might be reasons for that:

1) Patent license restrictions.
2) Usage of closed source third party software.
3) Maybe the work is done by more than one processor and it is technically impossible to have then both responding to MIDI.

Probably they will not tell the true reason and will not fix this in an update. It might be impossible to fix due to technical or licensing reasons.

If it's 1 we need to burn down the patent office.
If it's 2 Roland needs to fire their legal department.
If it's 3 Roland needs to fire their engineering department.
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The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1425245 - 04/27/10 02:14 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
;-)

I believe also that modelled pianos use a lot of processing power. So they will probably only be usable as solo instruments.

MIDI instruments are normally multitimbral, that means, multiple MIDI channels can use them simultaniously. That is probably not the case for the modelled piano. Probably this is implemented in another way than the other MIDI instruments.

So that might be another reason why there are MIDI problems.

This is also a problem with some software pianos. However, it is not a problem with Kontakt player based pianos.
Sometimes I play MIDI piano files, that have multiple tracks. Simply to solve: load one and the same piano multiply with different MIDI channels. The memory is needed only once, it is shared.
This can be easily done with the PC because it has probably 100 times more processing power and 1000 times more RAM and 100000 times more nonvolatible storage.


Edited by hpeterh (04/27/10 02:20 PM)
_________________________
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#1425272 - 04/27/10 02:43 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: hpeterh]
Voltara Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/29/09
Posts: 124
I uploaded a DP-BSD mp3 of a VST called "Supreme Pianos", which claims to be physically modeled, using no samples at all. I heard about it on the KVR forum http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4065947; the product web site is at http://www.soundemon.com/products/spintro.htm. The mp3 is of the trial version, which inserts a few seconds of silence in its output every minute. All sliders were left at their defaults.

The file is up on mediafire: http://www.mediafire.com/file/1mxnyjro1dv/dpbsd_v1.7_sound_magic_supreme_pianos_red_wings.mp3

Despite the author's claims, this one sounds 100% sampled to me...

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#1425274 - 04/27/10 02:44 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: bkmz
TP is just a primitive limited sampler - stretched, looped, one-layered.

I think they may be using a second additive layer for the string brightness / hammer sound. But, yeah, other than that it seems rather primitive.


I think dewster is right. TP is in no way similar to SN, I even doubt they're using any kind of modeling (I don't regard using multiple components of a sampled sound as "modeling"). BUT: I still like the sound signature of TP better than that of Roland's SN (sorry Roland owners). It's not always about the best technology but about playability and quality of the basic sound, despite many technical (even audible) limitations.
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1425312 - 04/27/10 03:31 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Voltara]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4339
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Voltara
I uploaded a DP-BSD mp3 of a VST called "Supreme Pianos", which claims to be physically modeled, using no samples at all.

Thanks! There are strange sounds at the beginnings of notes, and strange drop-outs during the decays. I'll download the demo and take a crack at doing an MP3.

Originally Posted By: Voltara
Despite the author's claims, this one sounds 100% sampled to me...

Stretch groups of 3 over the whole range, and what looks and sounds like 2 unblended velocity layers.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1425326 - 04/27/10 03:59 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: hpeterh]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4339
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: hpeterh
...This can be easily done with the PC because it has probably 100 times more processing power and 1000 times more RAM and 100000 times more nonvolatible storage.

And 1/10 the cost.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1425335 - 04/27/10 04:09 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
bkmz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 142
Loc: Belarus
Here is spectral phase view of HP307 velocities:

_________________________
ex-Yamaha CLP 330

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#1425349 - 04/27/10 04:24 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4339
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Voltara
I uploaded a DP-BSD mp3 of a VST called "Supreme Pianos", which claims to be physically modeled, using no samples at all.

I downloaded the demo and am able to get the popping noises to go away, but can't fix the short note decay thing. Decaying notes just fall off the face of the earth.

- It passes the pedal down sympathetic resonance test - the sound of this is nice.
- It passes the key down sympathetic resonance test, though the effect is subtle.
- It largely passes the pedal down silent replay test, though the vel=1 note replays.
- It fails the quick pedal partial damping test.
- No support for partial pedaling.
- It doesn't appear to be looped, though there is some evidence of a transition between note attack and note decay.
- Stretched, both visually and audibly.
- Stretch groups: 2,3(x28),2 = 30 groups.
- 2 velocity layers, the upper one blended somehow, harsh step @ vel=66.

This product strikes me as a work in progress. It might not be a strictly sampled instrument, but the end result largely boils down to the same thing. I like the fact that it isn't looped and has nice sympathetic resonance, but they need to lose the stretching, and fix that velocity switch - it just about gave me whiplash.

And, is it my imagination, or are we going backwards lately? When it comes to the subtleties of how pedals and keys work and interact, no one (except Pianoteq) is able to get everything right for some reason, and it seems like it is only getting worse.


Edited by dewster (04/27/10 04:31 PM)
Edit Reason: (except Pianoteq)
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1425374 - 04/27/10 05:00 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
MarcoM Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 246
Originally Posted By: dewster
And, is it my imagination, or are we going backwards lately? When it comes to the subtleties of how pedals and keys work and interact, no one (except Pianoteq) is able to get everything right for some reason, and it seems like it is only getting worse.


how large is the market of people wanting to use a VST for a complete simulation of an acoustic compared to the market that just wants a 'good sounding piano in the mix' (which will be compressed/eq'd/...)? I think it is a very small niche, which is well served by mostly only pianoteq at this point, other products likely have other priorities.

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#1425453 - 04/27/10 06:30 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: MarcoM]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4339
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: MarcoM
how large is the market of people wanting to use a VST for a complete simulation of an acoustic compared to the market that just wants a 'good sounding piano in the mix' (which will be compressed/eq'd/...)? I think it is a very small niche, which is well served by mostly only pianoteq at this point, other products likely have other priorities.

Good point, though surely it can't be that difficult to do this stuff right. Most offerings seem to be the product of people who either don't understand how pianos work or don't believe in code craftsmanship (or both).
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1425481 - 04/27/10 07:13 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
MarcoM Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 246
heh, given that I work as a software developer during the day, I can definitely let you know that 'code craftsmanship' is all fine & dandy, but in the end you are going to implement what is required by the feature set agreed with marketing and product management and QA.

The old adage that 90% of the program takes 90% of the time, and the other 10% takes 90% of the time comes to mind, you'd be surprised how many "can't be difficult" things take a long time & effort to get right, and if you are aiming at the 'piano in the mix' or 'film score with some piano' crowd the ROI is just not there, it's a much better business decision to spend the development time on a new/different piano rather than getting all the intricacies of the DPBSD test just right.

The pianoteq folks, given that they are operating with modeling, have it paradoxically a bit simpler, given that if your model is 'good enough' you will get a lot of these behaviours 'for free'. I can definitely see how going from a raw 4-layer sample set to something that responds to partial pedaling, harmonics and so on would not be easy at all.

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#1425547 - 04/27/10 09:10 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: MarcoM]
Glenn NK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 457
Loc: Victoria BC
Originally Posted By: MarcoM
Originally Posted By: dewster
And, is it my imagination, or are we going backwards lately? When it comes to the subtleties of how pedals and keys work and interact, no one (except Pianoteq) is able to get everything right for some reason, and it seems like it is only getting worse.


how large is the market of people wanting to use a VST for a complete simulation of an acoustic compared to the market that just wants a 'good sounding piano in the mix' (which will be compressed/eq'd/...)? I think it is a very small niche, which is well served by mostly only pianoteq at this point, other products likely have other priorities.




I would be hoping that the market for a semblance of excellence would be expanding not contracting.

I'm wondering what could the "other priorities" be? It bothers me that mediocracy first comes to mind.

And yet when I listen to postings on another music forum where the piano isn't solo, some of the piano sounds make me cringe. And as you say, "it fits in the mix". Jeez, what would a real live group do with a real live Steinway? Kill it to make it fit in?

Glenn

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#1425568 - 04/27/10 09:54 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Glenn NK]
jscomposer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
Hey dewster, what's the moral of the story? Could you give us a little recap/summary of this epic thread?
_________________________
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#1425570 - 04/27/10 09:56 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Glenn NK]
MarcoM Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 246
Originally Posted By: Glenn NK
And as you say, "it fits in the mix". Jeez, what would a real live group do with a real live Steinway? Kill it to make it fit in?


probably, but given that nowadays' mixing is as far from 'high fidelity' as possible, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war for example, it does make sense that products like Pianoteq are the exception rather than the rule...

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#1425607 - 04/27/10 10:56 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: MarcoM]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4339
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: MarcoM
heh, given that I work as a software developer during the day, I can definitely let you know that 'code craftsmanship' is all fine & dandy, but in the end you are going to implement what is required by the feature set agreed with marketing and product management and QA.

Not trying to pick on you, but I was - and hopefully still am - a coder (verilog). The only way I got as good as I am (however good that is) was by constantly rewriting, polishing, and reexamining my and other's code.

Originally Posted By: MarcoM
The old adage that 90% of the program takes 90% of the time, and the other 10% takes 90% of the time comes to mind, you'd be surprised how many "can't be difficult" things take a long time & effort to get right, and if you are aiming at the 'piano in the mix' or 'film score with some piano' crowd the ROI is just not there, it's a much better business decision to spend the development time on a new/different piano rather than getting all the intricacies of the DPBSD test just right.

I think doing it half-assed in the first place is more time consuming and expensive in the long term, though it gives management something to manage, and thus a reason to exist.

Craftsmanship is the only thing that interests me and keeps me going. Really believing in something is the only reason to do anything.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1425608 - 04/27/10 10:56 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: MarcoM]
jmmec Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/02/10
Posts: 86
Loc: New Mexico (yes, USA!)
Update on the Roland HP-307 and MIDI:

For those that have been watching, the HP-307 does not automatically enable piano effects during MIDI playback (the DPBSD test first revealed this).

So far I've been able to determine that the following settings can be enabled through MIDI:
  • Reverb (ON / OFF)
  • Damper Resonance (off, 1..10)
  • Cabinet Resonance (off, 1..10)
  • String Resonance (off, 1..10)

What this means is that a special DPBSD MIDI file, specific to HP-307, will be needed to enable the effects. But more investigation is needed to see what else is possible.

I've updated this webpage (it's not very pretty right now):

http://wmsar.info/dewster_dpbsd/

Hopefully Roland will release the MIDI spec soon.

Regards
_________________________
Roland HP-307
Roland Quad-Capture

https://vimeo.com/58278342

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#1425612 - 04/27/10 11:04 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Glenn NK]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4339
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Glenn NK
I would be hoping that the market for a semblance of excellence would be expanding not contracting.

...

It bothers me that mediocracy first comes to mind.

Welcome to the modern world. This is why I left the industry.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1425616 - 04/27/10 11:10 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: jmmec]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4339
Loc: Northern NJ
jmmec, do keep us posted on your results - I for one am very interested in anything you come up with to solve this problem.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1425620 - 04/27/10 11:14 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: jscomposer]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4339
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: jscomposer
Hey dewster, what's the moral of the story? Could you give us a little recap/summary of this epic thread?

Despite all the fancy marketing, hardware DPs are woefully behind the technology curve - and some PC samplers aren't much better (though some are quite a bit better).
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1425625 - 04/27/10 11:27 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
MarcoM Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 246
Originally Posted By: dewster
Not trying to pick on you, but I was - and hopefully still am - a coder (verilog). The only way I got as good as I am (however good that is) was by constantly rewriting, polishing, and reexamining my and other's code.


same thing here, but if the schedule says you have to be ready by day X and you know that doing things well would take until day X + 20 well, corners have to be cut unfortunately: as you well know most software developers would LOVE to always have the time to do it 'right' and complete and perfect the first time, but the moment you mix up the business side of things that starts becoming difficult (more or less difficult depending on how 'enlightened' the company you work for is, of course).

Originally Posted By: MarcoM
I think doing it half-assed in the first place is more time consuming and expensive in the long term, though it gives management something to manage, and thus a reason to exist.


and there you go about the 'enlightened' side of things, some companies realize that effort spent upfront saves a lot of time/expense in the long term, but most companies prefer to 'ship early, ship often (and ship a lot of bugfixes)'. Hardware companies have a lot less of a choice to do this (recalling a chip because of a hw bug is not simple, or cheap) but software companies especially in this day and age have very little penalty to pay, and paradoxically having a certain level of patching/bugfixing will generate income for your customer support department wink

Originally Posted By: MarcoM
Craftsmanship is the only thing that interests me and keeps me going. Really believing in something is the only reason to do anything.


I am lucky that currently I am in a position where I have to make very few compromises in terms of craftmanship (as in, I get the time to do things 'right' 99% of the times) but having been in this field for a while now I do realize this is the exception rather than the rule.

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#1425713 - 04/28/10 05:58 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: jmmec]
zaba19 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 33
Originally Posted By: jmmec
So far I've been able to determine that the following settings can be enabled through MIDI: [/b]

Add to that damper noise, although it might be enabled once damper resonance gets enabled (without it damper noise can be set to 10 and still not provide any sound)

Originally Posted By: jmmec
Hopefully Roland will release the MIDI spec soon.

Tbh it's been so long since someone on this forum asked Roland to provide it that I doubt we will ever see it...

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#1425714 - 04/28/10 06:10 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: MarcoM]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
Originally Posted By: MarcoM

I am lucky that currently I am in a position where I have to make very few compromises in terms of craftmanship (as in, I get the time to do things 'right' 99% of the times) but having been in this field for a while now I do realize this is the exception rather than the rule.


Don't let your boss know, otherwise he'll cut your development time immediately... wink
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

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#1425870 - 04/28/10 11:56 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: mucci]
MarcoM Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 246
Originally Posted By: mucci
Don't let your boss know, otherwise he'll cut your development time immediately... wink


hahaha, you are so right smile

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#1425925 - 04/28/10 01:15 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: zaba19]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2323
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: zaba19
Originally Posted By: jmmec
So far I've been able to determine that the following settings can be enabled through MIDI: [/b]

Add to that damper noise, although it might be enabled once damper resonance gets enabled (without it damper noise can be set to 10 and still not provide any sound)

Originally Posted By: jmmec
Hopefully Roland will release the MIDI spec soon.

Tbh it's been so long since someone on this forum asked Roland to provide it that I doubt we will ever see it...


Did they ever release the midi spec for the HP207? Not according to JMMEC's site (great stuff BTW).

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Swamp Cooler and Air Conditioner- Use only One of them!
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