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#1472714 - 07/12/10 04:26 AM Re: EBVT III "Unplugged" Tune-a-Thon........... [Re: Grandpianoman]
Mark R. Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1867
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted By: Grandpianoman
Here is a little Jazz Improv that Patrick did for us late in the evening, played on the M&H in EBVT III. Lot's of good bass energy towards the end, which EBVT III seems to flourish in.

WTG Patrick!


I've just listened to this blues impro, which moves from C to C#/Db, then D, then Eb, skips E and moves finally to F. I must say: I don't hear more tension in Db and Eb, neither do I hear more purity in C, D or F.

For my part, I close this "EBVT vs. ET" chapter, having come to my personal conclusions that
1) in real-time play, I cannot distinguish ET from EBVT,
2) I still think that stretch plays a stronger role in the overall sound of a piano than 1 or 2 cents deviation in the temperament. I submit a personal opinion that things like the pipe organ effect, the melodious and/or harmonious sound of a piano, etc. etc. depend much more on the amount of stretch used.

Anyway, it's been fascinating reading, and from now on, I'll leave it up to those really fine ears that can (or believe they can) actually distinguish between the two...
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1472762 - 07/12/10 08:10 AM Re: EBVT III "Unplugged" Tune-a-Thon........... [Re: Mark R.]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
I just wanted to say thank you to Bill B., (welcome back too of course) Andy, GPM, Greg, Pat and maybe others that I missed for taking the time to tune, post, tune again, record, play, post etc.. That took a lot of time out of a 4 day schedule. It was nice of you all to take the time to do this for everyone here.

Jer
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1472767 - 07/12/10 08:27 AM Re: EBVT III "Unplugged" Tune-a-Thon........... [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
RPD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 961
Loc: Kalamazoo Michigan
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
I just wanted to say thank you to Bill B., (welcome back too of course) Andy, GPM, Greg, Pat and maybe others that I missed for taking the time to tune, post, tune again, record, play, post etc.. That took a lot of time out of a 4 day schedule. It was nice of you all to take the time to do this for everyone here.

Jer


Yeah...what he said.

I too am grateful for the efforts and willingness to work on the concept, that all of you put forth...

RPD
_________________________
MPT(Master Piano Technicians of America)
Member AMICA (Automated Musical Instruments Collector's Association)
(Subscriber PTG Journal)
Piano-Tuner-Rebuilder/Musician www.actionpianoservice.com

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#1472799 - 07/12/10 09:34 AM Re: EBVT III "Unplugged" Tune-a-Thon........... [Re: Mark R.]
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3037
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Originally Posted By: Grandpianoman
Here is a little Jazz Improv that Patrick did for us late in the evening, played on the M&H in EBVT III. Lot's of good bass energy towards the end, which EBVT III seems to flourish in.

WTG Patrick!


I've just listened to this blues impro, which moves from C to C#/Db, then D, then Eb, skips E and moves finally to F. I must say: I don't hear more tension in Db and Eb, neither do I hear more purity in C, D or F.

For my part, I close this "EBVT vs. ET" chapter, having come to my personal conclusions that
1) in real-time play, I cannot distinguish ET from EBVT,
2) I still think that stretch plays a stronger role in the overall sound of a piano than 1 or 2 cents deviation in the temperament. I submit a personal opinion that things like the pipe organ effect, the melodious and/or harmonious sound of a piano, etc. etc. depend much more on the amount of stretch used.

Anyway, it's been fascinating reading, and from now on, I'll leave it up to those really fine ears that can (or believe they can) actually distinguish between the two...


Mark,

I am particularly interested in having you skip back to the "Going Home" melodies that Patrick recorded. He did this early on at my request. I had him do it with you in mind. He played it on the Disklavier but we recorded it three times on the Mason & Hamlin.

I had a theory about what Dvorak must have done. It was clear to me that at the time Dvorak lived, pianos were not yet being tuned in ET as we know it today. His piano would have been tuned in a Victorian style temperament similar in characteristics to the EBVT III: not all that different from ET but still bearing distinct key color that can be perceived, even if not by everyone.

What I have seen from what you and any number of other people have written, both here and elsewhere has been the perception that if it is not ET, it wouldn't work, couldn't work and shouldn't even be tried. Some, as you have, said they tried it and found the dissonance in the remote keys unbearable (as you said you did on your harpsichord). I can accept that and I have.

Now, however, you say that you can't distinguish much if anything between one key and the other. I often see this. At first, the perception is that the EBVT III doesn't work because it is too different from ET. Then, the perception is that it is not different enough, so why bother? Believe me, there is a reason why I tune nearly all of my customers' pianos in the EBVT III. Those that I don't, I tune in some other temperament but never ET.

The theory I had about Dvorak was that the "Going Home" melody is a C Major type melody, best served by C Major on a keyboard instrument tuned in a Well Temperament. Dvorak most likely composed it that way but transposed it up 1/2 step to facilitate the wind instruments.

The winds would not maintain the kinds of interval sizes among the Major thirds that a keyboard instrument would. They would not even maintain the 14 cent wide M3s of ET. They would aim mostly at Just Intonation as you previously pointed out. Therefore, the choice of key on a keyboard was relevant to the way the keyboard was tuned but the choice of key for winds was made for a different reason.

After hearing what he played on the Disklavier played back first in D-flat, then in C Major, Patrick agreed with me completely. In D-flat, the rendition does not sound bad but it seems to have too much energy. (If it had been played in a stronger WT, it would have sounded out of tune, no question about that).

When played in C Major in the EBVT III, the rendition has that very calm sound that we associate with the way it sounds played by the winds (or at least closer to that sound). After that, Patrick had the short recording played again in D Major just for comparison. Again, it doesn't sound bad but it is just not the same as it is in C Major.

Do you care to go back and listen to those three renditions and tell us whether you can distinguish the differences in character between them?
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1472809 - 07/12/10 10:03 AM Re: EBVT III "Unplugged" Tune-a-Thon........... [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Cinnamonbear Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3741
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
I just wanted to say thank you to Bill B., (welcome back too of course) Andy, GPM, Greg, Pat and maybe others that I missed for taking the time to tune, post, tune again, record, play, post etc.. That took a lot of time out of a 4 day schedule. It was nice of you all to take the time to do this for everyone here.

Jer


Hey, Jer! I think in the list of names above, you mean Randy, as in Randy Cox, GP's piano rebuilder? smile

It's true, I would have loved to have been there! But the only thing I could have brought to the table would have been my pom-poms and a "things to do" checklist! laugh

And so, to Bill, Randy, GP, Gregg, and Patrick, I add my thanks to Jer's! What you've posted is wonderful! I particularly enjoyed the jazz improv--beautiful tuning, beautiful music, beautiful piano, beautiful recording--jeez, that was beautiful! grin

--Andy
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1472835 - 07/12/10 10:52 AM Re: EBVT III "Unplugged" Tune-a-Thon........... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Mark R. Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1867
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Dear Bill,

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
What I have seen from what you and any number of other people have written, both here and elsewhere has been the perception that if it is not ET, it wouldn't work, couldn't work and shouldn't even be tried.


Please, let's not go down this fundamentalist route again! I would never have said that. I'm sure you remember that I was actually quite open to experiment whether something other than ET works. That's why I tried the EBVT III on my parents' harpsichord in the first place.

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Some, as you have, said they tried it and found the dissonance in the remote keys unbearable (as you said you did on your harpsichord). I can accept that and I have.


Two comments:
1) You have to remember, Bill, that I am an amateur. I had great difficulty in finding the point where some of those intervals are truly equal-beating. (I mailed you to describe this problem). So, what I heard, was not necessarily a true EBVT III. It was just my (first) attempt. I distinctly remember that C major was very calm, but Ab major was very harsh. Time and again, I tried to tune C4 a bit sharper, but then it wouldn't fit the tuning sequence properly any more. (If I remember correctly, someone else here (Patrick? Glen?) also had this problem during his first attempts: some intervals or notes have to be set very carefully, in order to avoid making the temperament "too well".) So please bear in mind that when I spoke of harsh remote keys, I talked about my own attempt.
2) "Unbearable" is a strong word to use in this context. I'll just leave it at that...

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Now, however, you say that you can't distinguish much if anything between one key and the other. I often see this. At first, the perception is that the EBVT III doesn't work because it is too different from ET. Then, the perception is that it is not different enough, so why bother?


Bill, you make it appear as though I've had a sudden change of mind. This is not true. You can go back and check: since GPM and Patrick have posted tuning comparisons here, especially in "live" music pieces, I have not been able to distinguish one from the other conclusively. I actually joked about it the other day, because I got more guesses wrong than right!

Now, if GPM, Patrick or Glen were to play slow, successive M3s, I'm sure I could make out which is which. But in any normal piece of music, I can't - at least not conclusively. I sometimes hear some differences, but can't say for sure which is which. That's always been the case, ever since the first tuning comparison was posted!

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Do you care to go back and listen to those three renditions and tell us whether you can distinguish the differences in character between them?


I would love to! Just bear in mind that I have pitch memory (I prefer this term to perfect pitch), hence I would recognise the key immediately... The true test, for me, would be if all three renditions were in D flat, but with slightly differently-sized M3s.

Be that as it may, I'll gladly listen to the three, for what it's worth, if only you can give me a pointer (who posted them, when, which thread - or perhaps a direct link?)
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1472890 - 07/12/10 11:57 AM Re: Norwegian Folk Song in EBVT III [Re: Gadzar]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
O.T.

Yes, it's true. We should speak of Newtons instead of Kilograms. But to overcome this nonsense someone has invented the Kilogram-force which is the weight of a mass of one kilogram.


Just curious—apologies for the tangent—does anyone actually use the "kilogram force"? I, for one, have heard of it but never seen it in use.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1472915 - 07/12/10 12:34 PM Re: EBVT III "Unplugged" Tune-a-Thon........... [Re: Mark R.]
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3037
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Mark,

Thanks for your reply. In now way was I trying to be accusatory or argumentative. What I said was what I have encountered in general, not specific to you except in part and only fragments of that.

Here are the three boxnet links to the "Going Home" melody, all played in the EBVT III by Patrick (originally recorded on the Disklavier in ET but played on the M&H in ET.) [GP could probably post the Disklavier recording in ET].

The first is in the key of D-flat, the second in C Major and the third in D Major. I think you will find that it sounds most appropriate in C Major. I agree with your term "pitch memory". Some playback equipment can transpose. If you could do that, you could play the C Major version 1/2 step higher. It would not change the temperament, only the pitch.

Please let us know your reaction to these.

By the way, don't feel that you are in the minority if you can't tell conclusively whether a recording is in ET or EBVT III, especially if the music is sufficiently complex. I couldn't either.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1472934 - 07/12/10 01:04 PM Re: EBVT III "Unplugged" Tune-a-Thon........... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1637
Loc: Colorado
Hi Mark,
Since the intervals are not spaced evenly in EBVTiii by design, the same piece of music played in CMaj will sound quite different played in F#Maj. However, for example, I can't imagine playing the second Mvt of the Pathetique in CMaj anyway...Some folks might not hear the difference, but it is clear to me when that happens.

My first go at EBVTiii was not a disaster, it was just that I placed a few of the intervals in the bearing section as I heard them and they weren't correct, leaving the G#-C and F#-A# way too wide, which, when combined with octaves up and down from the bearing section left me with something that I just did not like. It would be the same situation in ET if I stretched too much the octaves in the most played section of the piano, for example, or did not have the intervals in ET set optimally. It would sound wrong, or like it needed to be tuned again.

That has since been corrected - like ET, in EBVTiii, one has to make the temperament fit the pianos voice (scale, and other limitations, etc) by making small adjustments, enough to make it as correct and musical as possible. I am a big fan of getting the octaves and unisons as perfect as possible - that is what makes any temperament shine.

Glen
_________________________


March piano audio
https://app.box.com/s/evl3yyp1kj52ve8l069u


A Bit of YouTube

PTG Associate Member

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#1473025 - 07/12/10 04:28 PM Re: Norwegian Folk Song in EBVT III [Re: Gadzar]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
GP, as I have understood it, Patrick lives in Finland and does speak the Finnish language but his mother tongue is Swedish. He lives in a west coastal area of Finland which is populated by Swedish migrants. They speak an older dialect of Swedish which he says many Germans find easier to understand than the modern Swedish dialect.
[...]
The Folk melody heard in this offering is, as I recall from an ancient Swedish tradition. To me, the plaintive mood reflects what happens to the spirit during the long, dark Winters of Northern latitudes.

Yes, this is all very true, and I appreciate your detailed memory, Bill smile

The folk melody is called "Kristallen den fina", which would translate into something like "The beautiful (/noble) chrystal". It is a Swedish song, part of my tradition too. I am one of about 300.000 swedish-speaking Finns (a minority of about 6% of the population in Finland).

In the folk music of our heritage, you would often have coeval minor and major. A melody line often rises up to a climax on the minor third, and then descends down to settle firmly on the major third. Thus it is simoultaneosly light and dark, much like our nature smile
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1473045 - 07/12/10 04:54 PM Re: Norwegian Folk Song in EBVT III [Re: pppat]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2258
Loc: Portland, Oregon

Bill, thanks for jarring my memory...Patrick, sorry about the mix up. There was so much going on and I was pretty tired as the days progressed, that I had forgotten that you had explained the song etc. I think we recorded that song late in the evening as well. smile

There is definitely more music to come....have been busy with my work...stay tuned! smile

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#1473047 - 07/12/10 04:57 PM Re: Norwegian Folk Song in EBVT III [Re: pppat]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Patrick, nice piece! Congrats! I've read you passed your PTG exam.

Thanks, Rafael!

BTW, I've gotten a few requests on starting a thread about the tuning exam. I guess it's all pretty fresh in my memory, and some of my recalls might help others. If more of you forum members think this is a good idea, please say so and push me into starting it smile

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

The only question which Patrick truly did not know the answer to involved what I consider to be trivia but that any North American piano technician of experience would know. As an example, "Why are hammers labeled 10 pound, 16 pound, 20 pound, etc.?" The answer would never be guessed by someone not in the business: The sheet of felt from which the hammers are made weighs that amount.

Here, we use the English measurements that are obsolete in virtually all other countries of the world. If a sheet of felt were identified by weight in any other country, it would be by a metric unit of weight. Patrick told me that it is not by weight but by density that felt is graded in other places.

... at least that is what I think smile The measurements I have seen is total length and bore length, and then rather obscure gradings for density/weight (for example, "No 1, No 2" and so on.)

I had never realized that 19 pound hammers had a real physical relationship to their labeling. But then again, I tend to forget that a foot is actually the average length of a foot, too wink

Jürgen or Gregor (PW members) would know far more about this than I do, so if any of you (or anybody else with the facts together) read this, please set me straight if I'm wrong!

Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
Hahaha, I can see it now...44.5 Newton felt, 71.2 Newton felt, and 90.0 Newton felt. Before anything says I'm crazy...I will remind everyone that the kilogram is not a unit of weight.

smile true, but wouldn't kilogram-force and pound-force be what we call kilograms and pounds, referring to weight, as long as we stay more or less on earth? grin

Originally Posted By: Mark R.
I had great difficulty in finding the point where some of those intervals are truly equal-beating. (I mailed you to describe this problem). So, what I heard, was not necessarily a true EBVT III. It was just my (first) attempt. I distinctly remember that C major was very calm, but Ab major was very harsh. Time and again, I tried to tune C4 a bit sharper, but then it wouldn't fit the tuning sequence properly any more. (If I remember correctly, someone else here (Patrick? Glen?) also had this problem during his first attempts: some intervals or notes have to be set very carefully, in order to avoid making the temperament "too well".

Yes, Mark, absolutely - I'm still pondering the placement of C4 every single time I tune EBVT III. The relationship you describe, between C major and Ab major, is the hardest one for me to get right.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1473052 - 07/12/10 05:10 PM Re: Norwegian Folk Song in EBVT III [Re: pppat]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Quote:
BTW, I've gotten a few requests on starting a thread about the tuning exam. I guess it's all pretty fresh in my memory, and some of my recalls might help others. If more of you forum members think this is a good idea, please say so and push me into starting it smile


Great idea! Go for it!
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1473061 - 07/12/10 05:19 PM Re: Norwegian Folk Song in EBVT III [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1637
Loc: Colorado
Patrick - you've got my vote. That would be fantastic!

Glen
_________________________


March piano audio
https://app.box.com/s/evl3yyp1kj52ve8l069u


A Bit of YouTube

PTG Associate Member

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#1473080 - 07/12/10 06:07 PM Re: Norwegian Folk Song in EBVT III [Re: Inlanding]
Jbyron Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 482
Loc: USA
I think it is a good idea. I'm all for it.
_________________________
Tuner-Technician



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#1473124 - 07/12/10 08:00 PM Re: EBVT III "Unplugged" Tune-a-Thon........... [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3037
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Mark,

Thanks for your reply. In now way was I trying to be accusatory or argumentative. What I said was what I have encountered in general, not specific to you except in part and only fragments of that.

Here are the three boxnet links to the "Going Home" melody, all played in the EBVT III by Patrick (originally recorded on the Disklavier in ET but played on the M&H in ET.) [GP could probably post the Disklavier recording in ET].

The first is in the key of D-flat, the second in C Major and the third in D Major. I think you will find that it sounds most appropriate in C Major. I agree with your term "pitch memory". Some playback equipment can transpose. If you could do that, you could play the C Major version 1/2 step higher. It would not change the temperament, only the pitch.

Please let us know your reaction to these.

By the way, don't feel that you are in the minority if you can't tell conclusively whether a recording is in ET or EBVT III, especially if the music is sufficiently complex. I couldn't either.


Oops, after all that, I forgot the links, here they are:

1."Going Home" played by Patrick Wingren in EBVT III http://www.box.net/shared/hhneejfcyv

2."Going Home" played by Patric Wingren in EBVT III http://www.box.net/shared/6449gepa5i

3."Going Home" played by Patrick Wingren in EBVT III http://www.box.net/shared/kcvk0dhf2p
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1473142 - 07/12/10 08:38 PM Re: Norwegian Folk Song in EBVT III [Re: pppat]
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3037
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: pppat
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

The Folk melody heard in this offering is, as I recall from an ancient Swedish tradition. To me, the plaintive mood reflects what happens to the spirit during the long, dark Winters of Northern latitudes.

Yes, this is all very true, and I appreciate your detailed memory, Bill smile

The folk melody is called "Kristallen den fina", which would translate into something like "The beautiful (/noble) chrystal". It is a Swedish song, part of my tradition too. I am one of about 300.000 swedish-speaking Finns (a minority of about 6% of the population in Finland).

In the folk music of our heritage, you would often have coeval minor and major. A melody line often rises up to a climax on the minor third, and then descends down to settle firmly on the major third. Thus it is simoultaneosly light and dark, much like our nature smile


Thank you, Patrick. I now recall you saying those words and how I tried to repeat them with your exact accent. I remember being captivated by the melody.

We are all waiting until you release some of the other recordings! There is so much that everyone has not heard yet. The best is yet to come!
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1473160 - 07/12/10 09:17 PM Re: Norwegian Folk Song in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3037
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Patrick, I think a thread about your experiences with the tuning exam is an excellent idea. Many people have misconceptions about it. Some think it is too easy. Others are intimidated by it. You did it and you did it very well! Please tell all!

For those attempting the EBVT or EBVT III: If A-flat - C seems way too dissonant, then it probably means that the F3-C4 5th is wide, not pure. The G#3-C4 M3 is a little less than 17 cents wide. That is certainly wider than an ET M3 (14 cents) but it is not as wide as the 22 cent Pythagorean M3 by far. Many WTs do have G#3-C4 at 22 cents. So, if your trial of the EBVT yields a horribly dissonant G#3-C4 M3, you must have made an error.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1473262 - 07/13/10 01:15 AM Re: Norwegian Folk Song in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1432
Loc: Mexico City
Yes Patrick, I want to know how was it.

But, wait... Isn't there any risk to be banned if one starts a thread about PTG exams? Remember that this forum is not a recruiting outlet for PTG.


Edited by Gadzar (07/13/10 01:40 AM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1473316 - 07/13/10 04:53 AM Re: Norwegian Folk Song in EBVT III [Re: Gadzar]
Mark R. Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1867
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Hi Bill,

Thanks for the links. Unfortunately, I don't have any transposing playback equipment. It's difficult for me to describe what I heard, and not refer to the key - many people refer to the "characters" of keys. For me, C major has always been C major, as long as I can remember. Just like the color blue is blue. And I will always associate the Going Home melody with Db major, so any other key somehow sounds "off" - and note: for me, this has nothing to do with the width of the M3! It's just a matter of my pitch memory requiring that the melody be in Db major.

For example, when I first heard Bach's double concerto (the well-known version being for two violins, in D minor) in a transcription for two harpsichords, played in C minor, I was highly irritated and really quite deeply disturbed - that is, until I found out that the harpsichord version is indeed written in C minor. Still, as often as I hear it, it sounds somehow "wrong" to me. Again, this has nothing to do with the pureness of C minor vs. D minor. So my pitch memory is actually making things difficult for me here.

That being said, here are my impressions of Patrick's renditions:

Right off the start, no. 1 feels "right" to me, not because of any temperament issues, but because it's in the correct key. That aside, and now specifically regarding those remote keys in EBVT III: I don't find the M3s of Db or Ab offensively wide. In fact, to me, they don't sound much wider than ET M3s. However, the middle section in the subdominant (Gb = F# = most remote key), is really quite harsh, and I find this a bit distractive from the mood. But all in all, I quite like this rendition.

No. 2 is much calmer, I agree, and the calmness suits the melody. But: there are a few very "busy" notes/chords that interrupt this calmness - you would perhaps call it "tension and release"? One of them is the F3 in the G7 chord at 0:45, 1:00, 1:49, etc. which beats quite strongly with G1 (?), the other is the E augm chord at 0:53. I realise that this to-and-fro between calm and tension is possibly exactly what you want, but to my ears, it's unusual, and I must say, it distracts me somewhat from "immersing" myself in the melody and harmony. The dominant 7th chord in No 1. (Ab 7) is much more harmonious to my ears.

No. 3 has similar elements, especially a very harsh F# augm chord at 0:54 - as is to be expected. What I do like, is the pure-sounding G major in the middle section. To me, it actually sounds even better than the middle section of No. 2.

So it boils down to whether you like a temperament to contribute to the tension and release in the music. Personally, I think that "Going Home" has quite enough tension and release of its own (in terms of melody and harmony), hence I'm a bit distracted by the calm and busy chords.

But those are just my impressions. To me, all three have agreeable and slightly disagreeable elements. Now, I would just love to hear the same arrangement in ET, to see whether it can find a compromise between what I perceive as positives and negatives.

I hope my answer doesn't offend anyone - there it is.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1473411 - 07/13/10 10:26 AM Re: Norwegian Folk Song in EBVT III [Re: Mark R.]
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3037
Loc: Madison, WI USA
It was a fine and productive answer, Mark. If this music is to be played on a keyboard, the keyboard has to be tuned in Just Intonation with D-flat as the home key, it would seem. I'm not sure with all the modulations, that could be done. It was written for winds, so any interpretation of it on a keyboard will alter they way it is intended to sound. ET does not help it, nor would apparently any other arrangement.

GP has it in ET. All he has to do is post it. I'm afraid you won't like it any better that way.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1473415 - 07/13/10 10:38 AM Re: Norwegian Folk Song in EBVT III [Re: Gadzar]
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3037
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Yes Patrick, I want to know how was it.

But, wait... Isn't there any risk to be banned if one starts a thread about PTG exams? Remember that this forum is not a recruiting outlet for PTG.


Rafael, you will note that I never used those three letters. A tuning exam is a tuning exam. The schools that teach piano tuning give them and they have nothing to do with qualification to any organization. I have seen it written that some schools go beyond what Patrick experienced.

The discussion is about relative ease or difficulty, the pressure of the exam, etc. The same kind of exam could be given to anyone, anywhere without any association to any organization.

Indeed, Patrick has shown that he has grasped the necessary skills to go on to teach piano tuning. He can give the same type of exam where he lives and develop standards in his own country using the exam he took as a precedent.

No one recruited Patrick, he sought out what he saw as valuable and pursued it of his own accord with great personal effort on his part. His school funded his trip and that investment will be rewarded many times over with the set of knowledge and skills that Patrick brings back to share with his students.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1473441 - 07/13/10 11:37 AM Re: Norwegian Folk Song in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Mark R. Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1867
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Bill,

I doubt that just intonation would do the trick. To wit: the first few chords are a veritable roller-coaster ride through the circle of fifths: still having the last chord of the symphony's first movement in one's ear (one sharp), Dvorak now opens the second movement diametrically across the circle, in five flats - only to bounce from there back to one sharp, to five flats, to two flats, to six flats and finally back to five flats - almost as though he was stumbling around, looking for a new key. wink

Was he playing tricks, trying to confuse the listener? I believe he was.

Indeed, one of the reasons I'm so interested in an ET rendition, is to listen to exactly this wild, seemingly disjointed progression of chords/keys. I have a hunch that ET may actually contribute to this deliberate confusion, because all the keys will sound the same, so the listener is truly disoriented, like in a hall of mirrors. In an orchestra, you can play all of those chords just. On a keyboard, you can't, so "second prize" is perhaps playing all of them equally tempered.

Getting too philosophical or off-topic, perhaps?
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1473828 - 07/13/10 10:30 PM Re: Norwegian Folk Song in EBVT III [Re: Mark R.]
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3037
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Not at all, Mark. I hope that GP will post the ET version so that you can have some confirmation of your ideas. The whole idea of ET is that nothing is right but everything is the least amount wrong. It would still not convince me to tune anything in ET for I have long known that position. I have been given other examples of why ET should be the one and only choice but other factors have outweighed that consideration for me. This odes not mean that I expect everyone to agree with me but it does mean that I expect the right to make my own decision while I respect the right of others to make their decisions based upon what they know and believe.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1473852 - 07/13/10 11:17 PM Re: Norwegian Folk Song in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2258
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Hi Mark,

I will definitely post Patrick's "Going Home" in ET....for that, he played it on the Yamaha...the EBVT III that I posted, was played on the M&H BB. I can also transpose the ET version with the touch of a button...are there any keys you would like to hear it in?

One note...my Korg MR-1000 right channel has gone south...it's going to take a few weeks to get it fixed, if not longer. So I will use the Zoom H4 for this ET version. smile

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#1474042 - 07/14/10 09:02 AM Re: Norwegian Folk Song in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
Mark R. Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1867
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
GPM:

D flat will be just fine, thanks. wink Well, if it's really just the touch of a button, I'd be interested in C and D as well, just to compare it to the EBVT III renditions.

Others have said it; now it's my turn: many thanks for your patience in posting so many sound samples! It's fascinating stuff.

Bill:
Quote:
This does not mean that I expect everyone to agree with me but it does mean that I expect the right to make my own decision while I respect the right of others to make their decisions based upon what they know and believe.


People sharing their contrary opinions does not mean that they are trying to convince you to do things contrary to your convictions. Neither does it mean that they are criticising you as a person, or denying you any of your rights. Really, it doesn't. smile

Glen (Inlanding) used a nice analogy in a PM he sent me yesterday: Some people like vegetarian lasagna, some like meat lasagna. But the secret of any good lasagna, be it vegetarian or "con carne", is in the sauce - the execution of the recipe. The "sauce" of a good tuning is much more than just the choice of temperament. If the unisons aren't clean and there is no appropriate stretch, even the "best" temperament will never shine.

Well, for my part I thought it was a rather apt picture.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1474194 - 07/14/10 01:32 PM Re: Norwegian Folk Song in EBVT III [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1432
Loc: Mexico City
Bill,

Sorry, I know you are not recruiting.

I guess I am getting too conspicuous about what can and can not be said here.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1474214 - 07/14/10 02:31 PM Re: Norwegian Folk Song in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Grandpianoman
Hi Mark,

I will definitely post Patrick's "Going Home" in ET....for that, he played it on the Yamaha...the EBVT III that I posted, was played on the M&H BB. I can also transpose the ET version with the touch of a button...are there any keys you would like to hear it in?

One note...my Korg MR-1000 right channel has gone south...it's going to take a few weeks to get it fixed, if not longer. So I will use the Zoom H4 for this ET version. smile


Just getting back from a vacation in central Europe, bear with me if I don't have the whole dialogue in this thread plowed through just yet.

GPM: just for clarification, the "Going Home Theme" was recorded on the Yamaha Diskclavier, then played back on the Mason & Hamlin (through the LX system) and recorded.

... as far as I remember. If this is wrong, it will all be due to the excellent micro-breweries of Portland wink
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1474292 - 07/14/10 04:23 PM Re: Norwegian Folk Song in EBVT III [Re: Mark R.]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2258
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Mark, you're welcome! It's been my pleasure to share in this EBVT III discovery. Ever since I had the Wapin and the Isaac hammers put on, the piano has been steadily improving in the overall sound...and with the addition of Bill's EBVT III, it has enhanced the tone and resonance even more. It's been quite a journey so far. Now I have to try and replicate Bill's tuning. Bill had those unisons so spot on, I am a little hesitant to try and match him. wink

The Yamaha has that uncanny ability to transpose to any key. wink What is also great....I can stream the midi output of the Yamaha directly to the LX, therefore allowing any key change on the M&H RBB as well.

Patrick, you are correct about your playing it on the Yamaha! Did I forget to tell you that in the Portland area, ALL microbreweries put an extra ingredient in to make their brew more potent?!?...it's been written up in all the papers. wink It's all a kind of blur, there was so much going on. smile You also played the Yamaha for your "Kristallen den fina"...and it's slightly different than the one you played on the M&H BB...a bit more ornamentation. It's very beautiful. Will post that as well.

When Gregg Punswick sat down to play Mussorgsky's
"Pictures at an Exhibition" on the M&H RBB, that is when my Korg decided to take a holiday in the right channel. frown So, I had to use the Zoom....not quite as good as the Korg....never the less, it turned out nice...will be posting that as well...as soon as I can re-tune the piano and be satisfied with the results. wink

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#1474432 - 07/14/10 08:27 PM Re: Norwegian Folk Song in EBVT III [Re: Grandpianoman]
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3037
Loc: Madison, WI USA
I know you can do it, GP. The concept of unison tuning is simple, no beat! I know you can hear when there is one, we all can. I was very impressed with how the RCT can correct for pitch.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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