I posted this in beg forum but I think it's more appropriate here. OK guys, I did something really bad. I lost my temper at the end of this last lesson because I was just so upset over my piano teacher's behavior, me feeling so discouraged by him. Maybe I'm overly sensitive but it really bugs me when my teacher pulls a face or makes exasperated sighs when I pull out new music sheet that I'm excited about learning. I'm shy already and being adult, I feel so vulnerable and ridiculous when I can't say, count to 3 while playing! His faces and sighs just kill my excitement and makes me nervous playing for him. Granted they're bit more advance, but I even told him I'd be happy just doing 2-3 measures each week. He's been doing this for few weeks now and in addition to the lack of praise, I've been really discouraged and unhappy. So after this last lesson, I just blew up and emailed him. In the email I pointed out all the things he'd done that had hurt me and called him an insensitive, discouraging jerk (not in those exact words but that's the jist)and that I was quitting lessons with him. He was obviously upset and explained that he had just been teasing me. He did not know that I was so upset about it. I realize I should have talked to him about it instead of emailing this blasted email, but I tried to apologize by email to him twice now and I even called and left a voicemail apologizing, asking him to call me back. I feel horrible. It was a misunderstanding really. And he is a good teacher when he praises and I've laughed before at his jokes. It's just I get defensive when I feel attacked and ridiculed by him during lessons, and I explained all this in my emails. I don't know what else to do. He doesn't seem to accept my apology. I guess it's irreparable damage now, right?

Switch teachers anyway. If you have problems like that, it's really not worth it and you won't learn much..

Agree

Yeah, I suspect he's giving you the silent treatment so you'll feel really guilty and never do it again. Rather poor form to not even respond to your repeated apologies. Don't worry, I'm sure there are other teachers out there happy to take you.

+1
It's water under the bridge now. Chalk it up to a learning experience and keep it in mind as you interview new teachers that might be a better fit for you.
Good luck.

I think it is best that you leave this teacher. Maybe the teacher might do this again to you. I agree with the other teachers. It is not a good fit and he is not listening to you. For him not giving you positive feedback is not good either. Also for him giving you the silent treatment is not a good negotiating technique either. Good luck.

You may have overreacted, but your teacher was being unprofessional in acting like that. A teacher should realize how vulnerable students are. It doesn't sound like "teasing" to me.

IF he's man enough to reply to you, you may be able to work things out. If he doesn't reply, he has some immaturity issues to deal with, and you will probably be better off elsewhere.

Sincere best wishes either way!

Elene

You mentioned "He was obviously upset and explained that he had just been teasing me". This suggests he attempted to apologize for his behavior too. I say "attempt" because he did not say he did anything wrong, just explained why he did what he did (and was hopeful you would not take offence).

It seems to me it could be over if you let it drop. Just show up for your next lesson and focus on the lesson. You've done all you can do. You've apologized for your behavior, and asked for forgiveness. You may not find out whether he has already forgiven you or whether he nurses a grudge for a while. I would not bring it up again with him.

I think whether to change teachers is a separate issue. Sometimes it's worth ending a relationship after blowing up, but only if the reasons that lead to the outburst are not going to change and are truly no longer acceptable.

How long has it been? Is it possible that he just hasn't gotten the message yet, or has been too tied up teaching to call you back?

I don't know - to me it sounds like it really could be an honest misunderstanding between you two. I'd probably stop sending messages, and hang on to your next lesson. Then you can actually talk to face to face, which is usually a better way to resolve this type of stuff !

BTW - how long have you been with this teacher? My teacher sometimes does things like that too (he sighs when I pull out certain well-worn pop pieces that I haven't quite mastered) - but I've been with him for 3 years now, and honestly, it did take awhile before I got when he was joking

Actually, that lesson was the last one I paid for before this happened. I just don't understand how someone can't accept another person's apology. It's very immature. He's in his early 30's so there's no excuse. Did I hurt his ego this much? I understand totally that I was out of line for blasting him like because it was very disrespectful to him and he may have been disappointed in my behavior (as well as surprised). I'm shy so I usually smile even if I'm upset. I think he never saw it coming. I asked him if we could try lessons for 2-3 more months until I find a new teacher and in his "apology", he has refused to continue lessons with me. I guess, I don't understand why he can't get past this despite my apology. He has refused to meet me again to talk about this and also has not returned my phone call. I feel humiliated too over this whole stupid misunderstanding. I really don't want to run into him now, it's so awkward!

What did you learn from this?

Have you identified anythings that you might have done differently?

What do you think he was saying to you when he communicated by body language?

If you really meant your apology you will have no reason to try to avoid him in the future. You should have confronted him at the time it happened by representing how this was making you feel. If you had spoken in person it would be a different circumstance. Gathering up all your anger on a piece of paper and sending it is quite the "spitball".

Who is right and who is wrong is not really the issue.

The biggest problem that I see is that you were not together in your relationship of teacher and student and neither of you communicated responsibly to each other.

Don't say things you won't have to take back.

I hope I have said something that will reduce the anger and pain you feel.

What either of you are able to do about the problem would be about your own integrities and your own respect for the other.

It may be much too late because it was all from both of you - antagonistic in nature, in my opinion. He did receive a heavy barrage from you, an overload of pent up information that was scathing.

How much do you want to make amends? Amends does not necessarily mean that you would be able to work together again. However, maybe his message that offended you in the first place might be the most important message he has to give you. Would you be willing to listen if he would tell you about it instead of make the face?

Relationships being 2-way streets and all.

Betty Patnude

Sorry to hear your teacher has dropped you from lessons. He has decided you stepped over a line and he's no longer willing to deal with you. It's not about accepting an apology. It's about boundaries. I have only dropped one student. One thing about being a private instructor is you get to decide which students you are willing to teach.

At this point you're looking at finding a new teacher. Maybe you can reflect on your part in this, and learn from it...perhaps avoid making the same mistake again.

Your next teacher may be just what you need...hopefully more supportive and a better match for you. It can all be chalked up to a learning experience, and now a new opportunity to start over.

I don't think the student was dropped, Anne.

Yeah, I think she was:

The thing about being "shy" is that it seems to be an excuse for not being forthright. Funnily, I see his sighs and grimaces as HIS way of dealing with things rather than just head on. Some would call this a version of passive-aggressive behavior on both sides.

I hope you've learned something about dealing with issues face to face rather than via email.

Regardless, I think it's too late to assign blame. That is how he teaches, and that is how you react. Oil and water. Time to move on.

I would be very up front with another teacher and let them know that you need lots of support, verbally, and prefer to learn slowly, a bit at a time. Hopefully that will help you find a match for your learning style.

It sounds to me as though he wasn't really teasing when he did it, but came up with that excuse once you called him on it to make you feel bad. This is very manipulative behavior. I would stop trying to get him to accept your apology. You've made it, even though I don't think you had to, and if he doesn't accept, it's more a show of his character than yours. I would never be that way toward a student who was enthusiastic about a piece, even if it was advanced for them. Sometimes I let them try it because I know they'll practice a lot more for it, and also with a warning that it is more advanced than where they are, but that we'll work on it. I also let them know it's OK to work on a piece and then let it alone for a while and come back to it when you've learned more.

Spend your time instead looking for a new teacher. One who encourages. Always encourages.

Thanks Lollipop. I missed that.

Betty, you're absolutely right. I made a lot of mistakes. And I think he did too in assuming that this form of teasing was OK.

What have I learned? Definitely that communication is very important and that I should have talked to him about my feelings the first time I felt it. I did not do that because I felt uncomfortable discussing feelings with him -- somehow the words "I feel discouraged by your lack of encouragement and by your behavior" just didn't seem like a very professional conversation to have. Did I have a right to feel? I was there for lessons only. Ultimately I should just have told him how I felt.

I do not dislike him. We definitely had some good laughs in the past. Things started to change the last 3-4 months, perhaps when he began feeling more comfortable around me? I've been with him almost 1 yr now. That's also around the time I started showing him pieces I was excited about. It was definitely his body language that upset me -- as I said, the faces and sighs that he'd make at every lesson. I was always nervous and anxious. I'd come into the studio and tell him the piece I'd been working on, pull the book out of my bag and literally look into his face for signs of approval. Sometimes, I saw raised eyebrows, sometimes he'd pursed his lips or snicker before sitting down by the piano. I do want to say though that he would correct me and make recommendations to improve my playing. It was his attitude that offended me. I felt disrespected definitely. I felt my taste in music, my abilities as a player all disrespected.

I will look for someone new and I think it will work better this next time around. I do feel though that I lost a very important person in my life so I was upset over this misunderstanding. I thought we could work it out but apparently he felt we couldn't. He never officially apologized for his behavior, nor denied it. He described it as teasing -- his exact word.

Morodiene, you're exactly right. I believe that's the case too. He did recognize that his behavior had offended me, but decided to describe it as teasing. I think he might be embarrassed too over his behavior and just can't face me? I don't know.

Another take on it:

You had a year of him thinking he was doing everything okay, and you resenting every gesture and imagined insult. Then you blew up.

Okay, that's a harsh way to put it. But see how there's another side?

If you had been able to verify some of the little things he did, you may have realized he had no disrespectul attitude at all. We can't be sure how well you interpreted what he did. And he might have changed the way he approached you.

Always write this kind of letter in longhand with pen. Then don't mail it. It makes you feel better without having to eat your words later.

Another thing to keep in mind (as was pointed out in the other thread) is that it's better not to invest so much in others' approval. I never look at my teacher's face for signs of approval after I've finished playing something at my lesson, because I already know whether I've put in the work or not. We spend the time focusing on things that need to be fixed and nothing is taken personally.

I'd like to remind everyone that we only have one side of the story here, and even so, there are several things in the OP's post which bother me and perhaps bothers other teachers.

I wonder if, for example, the teacher explained that the material the OP wanted to play was too difficult, and it's not a good idea to expend large amounts of time on material you cannot master, because you lack the foundation technique? It sounds like he might have and in fact, may have explained it several times, and was becoming a bit exasperated over the insistence by the OP to "learn" it anyway. Or at least try.

FWIW, many of us prefer the teaching approach of bringing students to a level where they can nearly play the newly assigned material without major problems. There are other teachers who do teach measure by measure, and they are effective to a degree, but often, their students cannot read new material and are thus denied the pleasure of reading and playing for themselves. This is a difference in philosophy and if, as an adult, the OP wants to learn this way, then they need to seek out a teacher who teaches this way. But if I had to guess, I'd guess that finding such a teacher isn't going to be easy.

Another flag for me was that the OP couldn't count orally, to 3, while playing. This means to me that the material is too difficult for the student, and the student should be switched to more elementary level material.

As we weren't there, I'll leave the she said - he said discussions to others!

TimR, you're right . I've been saying from the beginning that I am probably mostly at fault for interpreting his faces and sighs the wrong way? perhaps he makes faces and sighs when he's excited, I don't know. I would get upset but just ignore it, week after week. Each week this happened and I let it go, I felt more and more belittled. I need to say that he did not display this type of behavior at the beginning of lessons, the first 6-7 months or whatever. I enjoyed lessons with him then, we had good laughs. It was later on when I started showing him pieces I was excited about. If he had objections, he should have voiced them, and broached the subject himself. Oh well, in the past now

When you tell someone those sorts of things in an email it can make them feel very awkward. I can understand why you did it, but I can also understand why he is refusing to speak to you. Teachers and students do have a relationship, and it's not that different to other kinds of relationships. If you wrote those kind of things to a friend, they'd be hurt and wonder why you couldn't say them in person, and would find it difficult to address the situation with you afterwards.

Well, it works the same with a teacher, but because the only thing you have connecting you is the teaching itself, it makes it even more difficult to get over it together. If he were to continue teaching you until you found a new teacher, there would be a constant feeling of sourness with him knowing that you were going to change soon anyway. I don't see how it could work.

Also though, it sounds like basically you did the right thing in stopping lessons with him, even if he was 'just teasing' you, it sounds like really there was an incompatibility between you which probably couldn't have been resolved.


Good luck! I'm sure you'll find a new teacher who you get on better with. Sometimes in life you just have to accept when something's gone wrong and move on.

I would agree with this diagnosis, though diagnosing this sort of relational issue at a distance is always fraught with difficulties and uncertainties.

On the other hand, for me I would not be looking for a teacher who always encourages. A teacher who is sour, or who always disparages would certainly arouse my hostility, but I think I would want a teacher who could give forthright criticism without always sugar coating things.

The OP may need a bit more encouragement, and that may form part of her next teacher search. I'm getting the sense, however, that she understands that she didn't help the situation by holding everything in until she exploded.

The key thing may be that old Greek aphorism γνῶθι σεαυτόν, or "Know Thyself." Know your needs and work to build a relationship that meets them.

John v.d. Brook - The counting to 3 was just an extreme example. Yes, this is my side only and I really wish I knew his side! I'm willing to listen, he's just not talking. I was hoping for some insight here . Guys, I'm not bashing him. Sure, I'll take the full blame for being too sensitive, to excited about my music and for relying too much on his approval. I don't play for anyone else but him, so I felt it natural to want his approval. He was my teacher. If he says I'm doing a good job, I know I am.

Communication can be a problem. Teachers may expect adults to be more savvy than they are or just not know how to approach a situation.

Argerich, many teachers will choose pieces for the purpose of teaching something that you need to learn, and at your level. When you choose pieces on your own, that can get in the way. The piece may contain things you are not ready for, and divert from what you need to learn and may even spoil something that he is trying to acquire. You cannot know that. He probably didn't know how to state it. So you are both caught in this miscommunication. He's frustrated about these pieces you're bringing in, maybe trapped by them. You're bewildered by his lack of enthusiasm because there is a certain emotion driving you.

What frustrates me about this scenario is that it could have been a chance to continue on a different plane. If he could have told you his goals for you, his way of working, and how that would help you, then your interaction might be a lot more effective as well as pleasant.

I went through a period of misunderstandings in lessons and waited way too long to get to the bottom of it. I suspect it is common between adult students and teachers in particular. Who knows - it might exist betweeen teachers of children and parents as well.

Keystring, are you being serious or facetious here? Sometimes I miss obvious deadpan humor. We have, of course, seen evidence of this is in dozens of threads here.

I was being serious. Do we not see misunderstandings between teachers and parents, frustrations by teachers toward parents and vice versa? People exist far too much in a state of wonder: wondering what the other party is thinking, or assuming things. Communication is tricky business.

It sounds to me like your e-mail was basically what it should have been, including the emotion, and I don't know if you need to apologize for anything.

100000% absolutely right, without a doubt.

But unlike what I see in most of the posts, I don't think she necessarily needs to change teachers, and if anything I think she shouldn't, at least just yet. I think this incident could be a good springboard for them.

That was my thought.

.....but on the other hand (following from my last post, where I said you didn't have to switch), seeing this post of yours, I guess it has run its course. Hopefully it will work better next time around.

I don't think you did anything wrong with him.

FI, this is one of your rare posts that I have to disagree with. I mean, what you're saying is good advice to a certain extent but I think it's very limited.

The fact is that we are very sensitive to everything from our teacher, and we should be. The only way we wouldn't be is if we didn't invest ourselves very much in the music and the studying and if we didn't regard the teacher as an important figure in our life -- and that would be bad.

You're right - the whole point of taking lessons is to correct things to meet the teacher's approval so that we can grow in our musicianship and technique. But a trap that many students (including me at one point) fall into is the need go out of your way to please the teacher. This includes unreasonable requests like practicing 5 hours a day during weekends or even skipping school if he thought I wasn't prepared enough for something. And it becomes a vicious cycle because even if you try harder, that teacher will manipulate you into think that it's not enough because you could still do more. And if you fail, it's not their fault because obviously you don't have enough talent or didn't practice enough, because look at those other students who have succeeded!

The only way to avoid those kinds of situations is to recognize that ultimately you're learning piano for a reason other than trying to please someone else, and it's their problem when you've put in the effort and they show unreasonable disapproval. I don't know, maybe this experience has made me more reluctant to trust teachers in general. But I'd like to think that I'm a more independent and confident person because of it.

FI -- This is interesting.
I think we just have different 'personalities' on this. Even when we think we're agreeing with each other, we aren't necessarily.

Like:

Although you put this in terms of agreeing with me, I don't feel this way at all, at least as stated.

For me, taking the studying very seriously and having the teacher be an important figure and being extremely sensitive to everything from him doesn't mean I'm looking for his approval. Maybe it's just semantics -- i.e. we mean different things by the same words -- but I suspect there's also a difference in orientation.

That has happened even with me.


This is the crux of our (seeming) disagreement. I don't think our vulnerability/sensitivity to everything from teachers is dependent on our wanting to please them. I think the sensitivity is inevitable, unless we just don't care enough.

The OP appears to be very insecure, and so it sounds to me although I do not know them personally, that they need a very encouraging teacher. One also can be encouraging while offering ways to improve.

I don't agree -- unless I'm very insecure too. I think I would have felt and reacted pretty much as she did, the main difference being that I wouldn't have let it go nearly so far and so long.

Morodiene, I am probably too sensitive as I stated before. Perhaps I should just have swallowed my feelings and continued the relationship. Someone else might have never even noticed or been offended by his behavior. I guess I don't have thick skin like that. Is it insecurity to want your teacher's approval? to want the teacher to show enthusiasm for music? to feel that we are happily working on it together as a team? i ike the analogy of oil and water -- that's what we were. My needs were not satisfied and I failed to communicate them to him too late. He may have tried to change his behavior -- I'll never know. I hope others can learn from this experience.

My main point is that in order to have a healthy relationship with a teacher, a student has to have confidence and self-esteem independent of the teacher's praise. Because we all have weeks where we played something completely off or something is in such bad shape that it's better to drop it. It's very hard for a teacher to be completely encouraging if what they need to do is get someone to improve. To really reach the full benefit of instruction, it's necessary to take healthy criticism, which really requires that we separate our personal feelings and the need for approval from the issue at hand. It also allows us to recognize when what's being said at our lessons is detrimental instead of helpful(which means it's time to move on). My original post was intended to encourage the OP to be a more confident piano student and not feel so bad about this situation.

Argerich: Good luck in your teacher search! You sound like a dedicated student who's put a lot of thought into how to best get along with your teacher.

^^ AGREE COMPLETELY. ^^

But I think the situation being discussed here is of a sort that goes above and beyond that. I think that even with an approach like you are describing, a student would still be affected badly and hurtfully. It would be bad, period. (IMO)

OH MY GOD! I just heard from my teacher this minute. I sent him a last email this morning apologizing ( a third time), how I understood I'd crossed a boundary, that he was probably angry, and that i just wanted to talk to him; I'd leave him alone afterward. His email was very short (1 sentence ), but at least it sounds like he's willing to talk. He says he's not angry, just annoyed, and that he'd call sometimes (hmmm...wonder how long that is ). Now, I'm not sure how this conversation will go. I feel awkward about how to tell him all this in person. Any advice? Should I even ask to continue lessons? he told me he didn't want to before by email.

If the teacher already said he didn't want to continue lessons for goodness sake just go and find a new teacher.

This relationship will be strained and that is no good for your learning. Move on, don't look back.

OK so I won't mention doing lessons -- it would have been weird anyway. We'll discuss what happened and hopefully end on more amicable terms over the phone. I'm just so relieved because I felt so bad for making another human being feel bad about himself. I am just glad I don't have to feel bad anymore about what happened.

Give it the time it needs and wait to see what happens.

Don't be worrying it to death by getting obsessed with it.

Life goes on regardless of it gets any mutual attention or not.

Only proceed with him again if he offers, you feel it's possible, and you drop all the things you have against him. If both of you are on the same page you should be much better at communicating in the future.

Don't let anyone get away with mocking gestures where words should be used. Ask them what they are saying using words. "Tell me in words".

Breathe deeply. Go on from here without any more regrets, guilt or blame. Call it over and it will be over and done with. No buts.

And, learn to count or whatever the problem has been. Apply yourself and work toward your musicianship you will never regret tackling that as the priority.

Good luck.

Morodiene and Mark C are right. I wouldn't bother reaching out to this teacher. I think he's playing games with your emotions. I can't imagine taking lessons from a teacher that sighed, made faces, grimaced. This behavior is so unacceptable, be it from a teacher, friend, colleague, etc.

Question for the teachers: Would you exhibit this same behavior (sighing, grimacing) to any of your students?

Greyhound, hahaha - NO!!! Grimacing and sighing is what our pubescent students do!

On the other hand, my students don't insist on working on two or three bars per week!!! (That would certainly be a catalyst to feel exasperation!!) But this should be dealt with in a completely different way than through sighs, groans and grimaces.

I've never done those things in response to a student. I may have felt that inside, however. If I had a student who refused to take my direction with regards to what they learned and in what order on a consistent basis (key word here is consistent: I have no problem with input from a student), then I would definitely have a talk with the student. I cannot tell from this OP if that was the case or not. I would certainly advise against learning a piece 2-3 bars at a time, but if they insisted, then I would have them agree first to stick to the piece until they can play through the whole thing to avoid hopping from one piece to the next. Or, have them start learning the first 2-3 bars of hardest part first since many pieces are a lot easier on page 1 than page 3. Or I may even take a backseat and let the student hop from piece to piece for a little bit, and then discuss with them why they aren't progressing and not able to play through an entire piece. It all depends on the personality of the student.

It is very important to use words, and to be sure your body language matches the words, because if the two are in conflict, one will always believe the body language over the words.

Argerich5405,
Thanks for letting us know about the progress made. It really sounds like progress. You now know the teacher is just annoyed. We're human, have emotions, and sometimes our frustration comes out in a way we'd rather not repeat.

I suggest that you forgive yourself, and decide if an impatient teacher is really what you want. If he calls, I would focus on gratitude. Let him know what you are grateful for. If you want to continue lessons with him, then just let him know you are willing to resume lessons, but would understand if he decides not to.

Perhaps make a list of the pros and cons of staying with this teacher. Discover if it is worth it to try to continue lessons. If you decide to move on, you could still aim for a positive ending, showing gratitude. If you want to move on, I would not bother to go into details about his disapproval. He's already heard about it through the emails.

Best wishes for a positive ending, and a good new beginning.

I agree with Greyhound, what proffessional teacher grimaces and sighs at a students attempts. You talk and explain why things should be played the way you want them played or the pieces chosen that you as a teacher feel the student can handle or needs to learn to excell. And you explain to them in an adult manner. And maybe you let the student pick one that is more difficult that they themselves want to play, or give them an alternative like let us learn these other pieces first so that the piece you want to play is more manageable. There are far better ways to teach than by sighing and grimacing or rolling the eyes. And when is that ever considered teasing? At any age? If you have learned to say things along and not bottle everything inside it will help also. That is part of communication. Teacher's are not mind readers. Let us know in a correct way what bothers you so that we can clarify or explain, before things get out of control. All in all I think you need to move to a different teacher, no matter if this teacher wants to take you back or not. Making you grovel for an apology isn't a good thing either. Forget the e mails in the future. Be adult and simply talk sincerely and simply with the person in any and all situations it will keep misunderstandings at a minumum.

+1.

You already apologized for losing your composure in the email so go ahead and move forward. Why stay with this teacher if you are feeling "attacked and ridiculed by him during lessons"? Life's too short IMO.

That is very true. Even little kids get that.

I don't know if this will help or not...it is a very different context.
I had a student in my undergraduate research methods class who CAME TO MY OFFICE (important point to make because she chose to address me in person) and complained that the exam I had given the class was the only one on which she had EVER received a grade below an "A." She had gotten a "C." (While everyone always says this, I could actually somewhat verify it by her GPA).
She went line by line through the test complaining about items, arguing points etc. While I was irritated by this, I tried to hear things from her perspective. Some of her comments were truly offensive. However, trying to be professional, I responded to each of her concerns, giving her no additional points. She left VERY angry!! She finished the semester with an "A" in the class. Her next test was a 100% (the only one in the class) and her paper for the course was phenomenal.
Believe it or not, she came back to me after the class and asked if she could work in my lab. Somewhat stunned, I thought about it but eventually invited her for an interview. She said that she had learned a great deal from the earlier experience. While she didn't, at the time, like how I had taught the material, she had grown to understand why the course was taught in the way that it was.
Okay, the end of the story.....I now love this former student. She is one of the most ambitious, clever, capable young women I have ever met. She worked in my lab for two years and is in the process of getting her Ph.D. at a highly ranked university.
Perhaps your hastily penned comments have not caused irreparable damage to your relationship.
I agree with Monica regarding the hand written note though. Having been on the receiving end of quickly sent, poorly thought out emails (not saying that yours was this) over the years, such a gesture would be more than appreciated.
Best of luck to you, only you can decide if you have more to learn from this teacher. If you feel that you do, I would recommend giving it a try.

I think the wrong guy made the apology.

Sounds like you got the "joke gone bad" excuse.

Drop him.

Argerich--A friend had a teacher who exhibited those behaviors to students, and having met the teacher, I think it was a reflection of poor communication skills on the teacher's part and the student letting it slide without calling her on it. The teacher was uncomfortable correcting an adult student and didn't realize that the sighing and smirking was offensive to the student. If my friend had been able to say, "Why are you smirking like that? It makes me feel really self-conscious" early on, I think the teacher would have gotten some very valuable feedback that would have kept her from losing other adult students later. Of course, that's not an easy response to have, especially to a person in a position of authority, so neither side won in my friend's case. She quit lessons without telling the teacher why, and the teacher probably still doesn't know that her non-verbal communication alienates adult students.

I think if your teacher calls, you're better off saying you wanted to apologize more personally for your email and to wish him well in the future. He knows what he did wrong, so any rehashing would probably not be helpful and just leave everyone more uncomfortable. I think you're doing wha tyou can to take the high road out of this relationship, even if you made a mistake earlier on.

Good luck,

Nancy

Glasslove--That is a great story. Many people in your situation would have gotten defensive during the meeting, said a few offensive comments of their own, and forfeited the possibility of a positive outcome. Or they might have caved in on the points to get her to be quiet. Either way, she would not have learned this valuable lesson--one we hope all of our students/children get in one way or the other before they get out of college. You provided her with a much deeper education than just the material learned for the test, that's for sure!

Nancy

I think so too. I can't help feeling that I may have been manipulated a bit. Now it makes it seem like this whole thing was me overreacting cause I'm an overly sensitive idiot. What I felt was very real and I need a a real apology from him before we can move forward. I don't mind that we both may have made mistakes, we're human, but I did grovel and beg him to accept my apology. He needs to respect me enough to do the same. I have not heard back from him yet. I will wait a week and see if I hear from him. I suppose this episode probably does not weigh too heavily on his mind if he can punish me this long without calling and talking to me for 5 min. In the end, I would be OK continuing with this teacher, but only if we both have a sincere talk how to avoid this in future, an explanation from him for his behavior, and most importantly an apology for the teasing. I cannot stay with him with anything less. I appreciate everyone's viewpoints on this matter. You guys are really great.

I'll offer a contrarian view here. Your teacher has done nothing that he needs to apologize for. You are the one that flew off the handle and blasted him in an email, telling him he was a bloody jerk. And now you want him to apologize? For what? You say he made faces at you and smirked when you brought him pieces you wanted to learn that were too advanced for you but which, nevertheless, you wanted to plough through at two measures a week. You never said anything to him about his facial expressions all year and then you suddenly go nuclear on him. Facial expressions can be misinterpreted. I have had a student complain I was being rude when I merely smiled at an answer he gave. It is what you actually say that matters. You apparently said a lot of hurtful things in your email and he is perfectly within his rights to refuse to teach you anymore. If he relents, the two of you will have to come up with a new, adult working relationship.

Well, IMO the fact that he has not yet apologized nor has he officially accepted your apology and is being silent makes me wonder why you'd wait a week. Does it take someone a week to come around? If it were a simple misunderstanding then the apology should have been accepted. You called the teacher on his disrespectful behavior, and now he's not responding. I really think for your own emotional well-being you have to let go. I understand you wanting to have closure, but he obviously does not. Please move on and learn what you can from this.

This is true, he has a right to refuse to teach me. I'm just saying that in order for us to start fresh, we both need to make concessions -- regardless of who was right or wrong -- to start from an equal footing. If there was indeed a right and wrong, I would not be able to continue lessons with him. I believe this was a misunderstanding and because I blew the lid without warning, I am willing to admit fault and give him another chance by groveling and begging for forgiveness. However I think he also needs to concede that he was partly at fault for making me feel the way I did, whether intentionally or not, as a show of understanding.

If this is your point of view I certainly wouldn't accept you back. "groveling and begging"!!! Really !!!

That's funny the way you put it! YI felt the need to be the bigger person by conceding fault. It is easier for me to look elsewhere and I'm being extremely generous by giving him another chance if he will accept it -- I did blow the lid.

A teacher-student relationship is, by definition, an asymmetrical one. You are never on an equal footing with your teacher, at least within the context of lessons. A personal relationship, if one exists, is something else. You shouldn't confuse the two. This groveling and begging is unseemly and makes it sound as if you have a crush on the teacher.

Jazzyprof -- I disagree. Why would a teacher- adult student not be on an equal footing if the relationship is a respectful one? There is a teaching aspect obviously. Adults expect a different kind of interaction with their teachers than children would. I don't think I would be able to start fresh with this teacher without an apology. Why should the teacher be above apologizing to a student? this is the equal footing I'm talking about. I agree, a personal relationship is completely different.

Not that you need to answer this, because it's a side question upon a side issue, but .....I'm just curious what the heck happened with her on that test. Or if maybe there really was something odd about the test. Because this is just such an unusual story -- such a great student doing lousy on just a single test, and not understanding or agreeing that she did lousy, and then immediately doing great on everything else.

The reason I wonder is that back in the day, while I wasn't consistently as great a student as she is, I had a few experiences like that too, and in those instances, it was something about the test.
Not necessarily that there was anything wrong with the test (although in a couple of instances there was), but at least that there was something quite unusual about it.
Which is not to say it wasn't also something about me.

In any event: That's an interesting and rare story.

+1000

I'm not a teacher, but I'd like to throw my two cents in before I head off to school.

Based solely on what the OP has said, it seems this teacher has acted unprofessionally, but descriptions such as 'he grimaces...etc' sound much more unkind when written in an online forum than they would in real life.

This could be a case of miscommunication and oversensitivity (I said COULD BE).

I, for one, am a very sarcastic and teasing person, and if someone I was tutoring was exasperating me I'd probably roll my eyes in an exaggerated way, and get back to helping them.

I would like to point out that 'shyness' is not an excuse for not being upfront and honest. Being and introvert/shy has turned into a modern tool to avoid emotionally challenging situations. Being shy is not wanting to go introduce yourself to a group of new people. Not talking about something difficult is not shyness, but cowardice (I am not insulting anyone here, but differentiating between two different things).

We cannot, as responsible adults of integrity, hide behind excuses to avoid situations that are uncomfortable. It blows up in our faces, like in this case, and isn't very respectful either.

This teacher could just have a teasing personality, and when he received a barrage of complaints out of the blue, it could have hurt him. He could be a very nice guy who just likes to tease, and has been misunderstood.

I do think the email was the wrong way to go. Everyone you are in a relationship with should be shown the respect of being confronted in person.

And though I do think it is best that the lessons are no longer continued, I think the OP should be commended for trying to apologize (perhaps not over and over again) and trying to settle things as she is. I find that to be a sign of integrity, and not something that should be discouraged.

So lets not immediately assume that this teacher is a manipulative, evil person. I would probably feel the same way he does (though hopefully would have reacted better).

Okay, you may now proceed with tearing me to pieces =P.

Pardon me for interjecting in the teacher's forum, but this topic originated in the beginner's forum, and I posted a response there. We are now on page 7 of the second thread. The OP is clearly very upset, or she would have stopped agonizing by now and moved on.

Unfortunately, she continues to insist she get an apology, continues to expect the teacher to answer her on her terms, all the while blasting herself for being too sensitive.

I believe that she is sensitive, which is perfectly acceptable. I also believe that being sensitive makes a good student. However, the problem is actually that she is insecure. If she were secure of herself, she would not insist on turning this incident into a referendum on her teacher's willingness to apologize. She goes back and forth on who is to blame, but the undercurrent is that she wants to place the blame on him for "making" her feel the way she does. She has to take responsibility for her own feelings.

Until we hear the teacher's version of events, I can't feel we can judge him. Even if he did behave exactly as the OP said, we don't know what she was doing and how he interpreted her actions.

I appreciate the input from all the teachers on this thread, who understand the difficulties teachers have when students bring in music that isn't appropriate for them (I am guilty of doing the same thing--and my teacher has been kind about explaining that I should wait). It could be that this is all there is to the problem with this teacher. If the student were more secure/more mature in her reactions, this blowup would not have occurred.

Please, be kind to yourself and file this entire episode away and move on. You will be better off for it in the long run. If you can't let go of it, I think you may have more going on than the good people on the piano forum can help with.

Yours sincerely.

While admittedly I haven't read every word here, that's not the impression I've gotten. It has seemed to me that the main apology she's talking about is HER OWN, which wasn't even necessary, and that while she's open to an apology from the teacher, not only hasn't she been insisting on it, she hasn't placed any emphasis on it at all.

So you want him to apologize for raising his eyebrows and pursing his lips????

When you put it like that, it sounds silly. But in an ideal world, the teacher would realize that he had made his student feel "vulnerable and ridiculous", "discouraged and unhappy" with his exasperated sighs and teasing. That's worthy of an apology.

But this is the real world, and this teacher might never get it: you can be strict and demanding of your student, but you must also be kind, have near-infinite patience, and never show derision.

("Be strict, no judgment, infinite patience" was my motto in my years of math teaching.)

-Jason

Don't hold your breath waiting for this call. Sounds more like a "don't call me, I'll call you" blowoff. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I will be surprised if he calls.

You need to move on.

Guys, I've decided to move on with a new teacher. Based on what everyone is saying, I don't need to try this hard. I guess I was guilty of starting the whole thing and wanted to fix it. It's OK, if I ever talk to him, it will be to thank him kindly and respectfully. I really would prefer not to rehash the whole incident. I do have a new teacher in mind -- an elder gentleman who has 50+ students -- that I met quite by accident when I looked in on art lessons! We started talking about piano when I found out he taught... I guess it was all part of the universal plan for me to move on ! By the way, this older gentleman does not own a computer so I will have to interact with him by phone or in person . Thanks again for the input. I've definitely read every single post.

The answer is yes.

(You don't?)

Mark, sorry, I wasn't asking you!

(But no, I don't.)

Well, since Argerich5405 is putting all this behind her(?), maybe it's time we all did. We don't know the teacher's motives and it's pure speculation at this point. Good luck with your new teacher, Argerich5405! You're doing this for the music - don't let a blip like that get you down. We all have 'em.

Tough.......when you ask a question on a discussion forum, it's fair game.

This is the only way it can be done (note the guy playing the Kawai!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSM3w1v-A_Y

Sorry it took me so long to reply, I stopped reading the thread and didn't notice your question.
While I cannot be positive, my best guess is that the student underestimated what she would have to master in order to do well on the test. Generally, even very good students find the course a challenge. She had all of the right stuff to perform well in the class, she simply didn't understand at the time of the first test that she would have to "turn it up a notch," from her ordinary studying behavior to do well. She also was so smart that she had coasted through many of her other classes. This experience, though painful for her at the time, served as a real "wake-up" call.
I will be the first to admit that the test is a tough one. Students take it relatively early in their undergraduate career, a time where many have succeeded by taking a bunch of notes on cards and memorizing facts. That method simply wouldn't work in this instance.

this is hilarious, maybe i should have thought of this

Thanks for the encouragement. I will continue my music of course.

Yeah JimF, I've moved on. You're right, he hasn't called back and I doubt he will. It's very unprofessional behavior regardless. Oh well, life goes on.

I don't think a student, at any age, no matter how sensitive, should have to feel attacked and ridiculed by a teacher! If my teacher were to ever make me feel this way, I'd have to move on.

Martha Argerich says that she feels attacked.

To me it is not in the least bit evident that she is being attacked.

I think I said no one should have to FEEL ridiculed or attacked. IMHO any teacher (piano or otherwise) making a student FEEL this way is doing something wrong. Once - could be a misunderstanding or misinterpretation of a comment but any more than that would have me doubting the quality of teaching.

Anyway I believe the OP is moving on....

A teacher cannot be responsible for how students FEEL; only how they LEARN.

True...but I imagine FEELING ridiculed would not be conducive to a positive LEARNING experience.... I think a teacher is a LITTLE bit responsible.... A good teacher knows how to inspire students.

I agree with Sandy. I can tell when a student is not comfortable, and I will talk to them about it. I really try to make adult students in particular feel free to ask questions, make mistakes in front of me, and be active in selecting the music they learn, with my guidance. If I feel a student is comfortable with me, I may throw in some jokes and I always try to keep the mood light and relaxed. You get a feel for someone's sense of humor and whether or not they can tell when you're joking. I try not to make any jokes that are diminishing to the student, and I don't let them make those jokes about themselves either. That's not productive.

I think you're right most of the time but maybe not this time.

This is a student who is admittedly both overly shy and overly sensitive, and who kept quiet about feelings for a year.

There are people who overreact to normal social interaction. I would not expect every teacher to recognize this, much less deal with it. In fact it may not be possible to avoid hurting this student's feelings.

Yes, the OP feels attacked, but very well may not be attacked.

(or, of course, it could just be a rude and insensitive teacher. That happens too. But in this case there's some evidence the student is a big part of the problem.)

Haven't read through the entire thread, but my jerk-o-meter is definitely well inside the red zone. No question in my mind the guy's a first class jerk. Sighing and making faces is so insensitive and unprofessional it's not even close.

And then of course he confirmed his lack of character in how's he acted since you confronted him. I'm the shy, sensitive type myself, so I know how you feel.

You're well rid of him. :>)

Of course it is important to create an atmosphere that is pleasant, welcoming, and conducive to learning. But beyond that I don't think I am responsible for how a particular adult student feels. As adults their feelings are their responsibility and it is up to them to communicate those feelings. In this particular case of the OP (Argerich5405), she says:

"It was a misunderstanding really. And he is a good teacher when he praises and I've laughed before at his jokes. It's just I get defensive when I feel attacked and ridiculed by him during lessons,"

If you parse her words you get the impression she thinks the teacher is only good when he is praising her. Some students feel attacked and ridiculed when you offer anything other than fulsome praise. I think a teacher should be free to tell a student "your tone is too harsh; you need to go slower into the keys". One student might see it as constructive criticism while another might feel attacked. If we spend all our time worrying about how a student is going to feel when criticized we'll just be walking on eggshells while the student stays stuck.

All true, jazzyprof, but I don't think grimacing and sighing and teasing as constructive criticism. Do you?

To be honest, it's easy to imagine those actions being in done in such a way that it's not nearly as negative as others make it out to be. For sure when those actions are done in a somewhat exaggerated manner, then yes, it can be counter productive. But if he let out a little sigh and his face simply reacted, then that seems natural. Others have mentioned it before, and I'm surprised that folks are still making judgment calls, but it's pretty much impossible to know to what extent the OP is accurately describing exactly what happened and what the teacher did. I know from talking to my wife that she has a tendency to take what many would consider trivial comments/expressions and read far more into them than necessary. Usually later, upon reflection, she understands that that was what she was doing.

Now I'm not saying that this definitely was the case here, simply that we don't know exactly what happened so it seems to me that passing judgment is as non-constructive as any claims made of the teacher.

Here we have a student who keeps scanning her teacher's face for signs of approval and who sees raised eyebrows and pursed lips as an attack. We expect teachers to remain completely stone-faced and impassive or to only exhibit smiles of approval? Then I'd better find another line of work.

It just occured to me that I wouldn't know if my teacher grimaced or not.... I'm either looking at the keys or the music.... whether he's demonstrating or I'm playing. The only time I'd be looking at his face is if we are talking and he surely wouldn't grimace or make faces then and he certainly wouldn't sigh heavily (goodness how rude)....Although I bet he makes plenty of faces and rolls his eyes when I can't see!! ........

.....and he probably beats his head against the wall after I leave!!

.....but has to have some reasonable level of sensitivity.

I guess some of us disagree on where that line is, and whether this situation crossed it.

Yes

Where do you get this stuff?

Jazzy -- I cannot believe your tack on this thread. We don't have to be "scanning" for stuff like that in order to see it and be affected by it. Profoundly.

Some teachers do the type of things described in an attempt to make it light-hearted. Without observing anything, this could some grumpy old git of a teacher or it could be overreaction to what may even have been intended to appear as friendly silliness. I'm not judging either way. However, if the student feels the same way with a new teacher, it might be time to ask whether you want to learn from criticisms (which just about any teacher will make at least some of the time) or basically just have your hand held while you press on in your own way. If it's the latter, you need to make this clear to a teacher.

From the mouth of the OP:

I've witnessed and experienced first hand situations where the teacher will demean the student purposely to try and establish authority, sometimes in cases where they (the teacher) felt threatened. It happens all the time, in fact in the vocal world. It is horrendous. And so it's not too much of a stretch to see that in this situation.

There's no way for us to know anything, perhaps the OP made all this up just to see what responses they get. Certainly it is worthwhile to discuss all angles of this situation, not just for the OP to decide what's best, but also for others who may be reading or later on doing a search. There are principles discussed here that can apply to many situations. So let's stop trying to guess at what the actually situation was or might be. All anyone here can go on is that the OP said, giving advice with the implicit caveat that it's all based on one side of the story.

I'm not saying such things never happen. I'm just saying that that it's not clear cut that the teacher behaved poorly. From the poster's point of view, they may be right or wrong in the impression they took. Nobody's opinion on here greatly matters because we don't know anything much. But it's important for them to weigh it up for themself. Just saying things like- "your teacher definitiely behaved like a tool- find a new one" won't help, if the poster goes to another teacher but ends up having similar issues with the inevitability of criticism. Perhaps the teacher really was just a complete tool. But I think it's important that the poster considers what the alternative perspective might be, before leaping to that conclusion- if such issues are definitely to be avoided in future.

Perhaps. As pointed out, we don't know how much of this is the teacher being a jerk, how much the student overreacting. Could be all one, all the other, or somewhere in between.

In a ideal case, even if the teacher was a total jerk, the student would take responsibility for and own her feelings. She would decide calmly and rationally whether or not to put with a jerk who was helping her make progress, or dump him and move on. But it would not affect her feelings of self-worth in the slightest. Remember, you have very little power over the other person, but total power over yourself (unless you give it away.)

Since I read the story, I spun out an hypothesis that went something like this:

The teacher wants to teach real things. Student does not yet know completely what studying an instrument is about. Student pulls out pieces (s)he wants to learn, thinking that this constitutes studying an instrument. But the focus on pieces rather than on the technique or whatever to be developed gets in the way of learning. There is a miscommunication at that level.

The teacher is frustrated and wishes this thing with chosen pieces would stop so that he could get on with it. The problem is that teachers don't always find it easy to communicate with adults. I also have the impression that as much as the student wants approval from the teacher, that the teacher also needs affirmation that he is doing a good job from the student. Another thing that we as students may not realize is that having what they teach, as they teach it, accepted or at least tried, is important to teachers.

Somewhere along that line the two miscommunicated. Also noted: student talked about staying on "until finding another teacher". Probably if that last bit had not been there, the teacher might have called. But if he is getting replaced (rejected) anyway, why continue with lessons?

This could have been an opportunity, had the two talked. Not nonsense about who should apologize to whom. That part was a turn-off and silly. But about what was going on. If the OP's self-chosen pieces were getting in the way, and if the teacher could have produced better things by having things go better, that would have helped Argerich's growth. That's like a new start on a more mature path.

As it is, now there is a nice elderly teacher who will do what the student wants, as I understand it. There is less friction, but will as much learning take place as could have happened?

All of this is a hypothesis that sprang into my wild imagination and could be quite wrong.

Are we still on this? I apologized and wanted to discuss what happened with him. He has repeatedly refused to verbally communicate with me. I did hope that this could be a springboard for better communication between us as well as more honesty, which I believed would enhance lessons further. I did tell him that I wanted to quit with him in my blasted email. Later during my apology, I did ask if we could continue for few more months until I get a new teacher (the elderly gentleman has 50+ students and won't have opening until end of summer). The teacher said that it was a bad idea. I can understand that there would be sourness knowing that I'd be gone anyway. I have no teacher for now...until the summer anyway.

I never asked my old teacher straight out if we could resume lessons. I said before that he's not a bad teacher. I've learned much from him, and probably have much to learn still. It seems such a silly episode, if it was a misunderstanding on his part and if his behavior was indeed teasing only. I guess I'm guilty even more if he was just teasing me and I misunderstood. I really don't hold grudges and if we talk about what happened, I could move forward with him without any awkwardness on my part. I had hoped that a verbal discussion would perhaps lead to resuming lessons, but he has not returned my calls. Should I ask him straight out if we could resume? I suppose it'd have to be by email since he doesn't respond to calls. I'll just have to wait till end of summer for that other teacher.

Argerich,
He's telling you by his silence that he is done. If I were in your situation, I would not contact him again. Just as you have a right to select your teacher, he has a right to work or not work with students if he feels it is not a good fit and by now he probably thinks it is no longer workable to teach you, rightly or wrongly. Getting blasted in an email is cause to consider the relationship ruptured, even if the situation that triggered it was a misunderstanding. I hope you find a teacher that you both feel comfortable with and can learn from. Good luck!
Sophia

Sorry to be blunt, but if a student was overwhelmingly rude, I don't think I'd want them back. What exactly did you write?

This is not in response to the OP or to anyone else.

This is one teacher's point of view.

I see two reasons for a teacher appearing to be cross, grumpy, testy, impatient, etc.

1) Students are unreasonable or uncooperative, for any of a million reasons.

2) Teachers have a bad day, are themselves unreaonable, or by nature ill-tempered and normally "get away with it".

In other words, there may or may NOT be legitimate reasons for a teacher appearing less than kind.

There may or may NOT be legitimate reasons for a student appearing less than cooperative.

There are demanding, unreasonable, inconsiderate students.
There are demanding, unreasonable, inconsiderate teachers.

All threads started by teachers or students talking that are venting may or may not be fair, and that includes any venting threads started by me or participated in by me. So it is best to keep discussions general rather than assuming student A or teacher B has or has not done anything that is wrong or inappropriate.

You're doomed, Argerich5405. This has officially become one of the Threads That Never Die. Your only hope is to start a NEW thread entitled "How to Kill Off a Thread."

This is the thread that never ends,
Yes it goes on and on my friend
Some people started posting it, not knowing what it was,
and they'll keep replying to it forever just because...

Although this thread does have a lot of suggestions that would help many students and teachers, not just the original OP.

THAT made me laugh!!!!

Taken badly out of context.

I looked back at where she said it, and I disagree with how you have cited it.

I saw it as her bending over backwards to give the teacher every possible benefit of the doubt -- after the teacher had been doing that garbage and had triggered the ill feeling -- to see if there was something positive.

Oh great! Now we'll have TWO threads that won't die!

Thanks very much! <grin>

LOL! Thanks for the poetry! Very funny!

Mark, are you still flogging this dead horse?

Why do you feel it necessary to vilify this teacher you don't even know? You accuse the teacher of doing "that garbage". What...raising his eyebrows and sighing? You make it sound as if the teacher was purposely setting out to cause harm to the student. You weren't there and you weren't in the teacher's head. Maybe all he was trying to convey was “Girl, you know I’ve told you this piece is too difficult for you and yet you keep bringing it and wanting to learn a measure a week. What’s with that?”

You accuse me of taking the OP's words out of context. Before that you had asked me "Where do you get this stuff" when I posted the words. Well, you need to read more and post less. If you want to see the context of the words I posted, below is the entire paragraph from the OP's post, with the words I cited in bold. Now you tell me how I have pulled them out of context.

What was the context? An adult student focused on her teacher's body language, looking for signs of approval or disapproval. So she didn't like his body language. Instead of letting him know about it in an appropriate manner she drops the "bloody jerk" bomb on him in an email and announces that she is quitting. Before that she had not uttered a word about this "body language". I don't see any bending over backwards by her before exercising the nuclear option.

+100

Doesn't matter if it was purposeful or not. It was insensitive and potentially damaging. Obviously this teacher has 'patience' problems.

You too?

I did read.
I disagree with you guys. IMO you're wrong about that post by the OP. I think you misinterpreted it and saw in it what you wished to see, and you're holding it over us like a club, when in fact you're just incorrect about it.

It seems you're bending over backwards to defend a teacher who pretty clearly screwed up, badly, and who frankly seems sort of toxic.

I only replied to something that you directed to me. It's pretty weak to call that 'flogging a dead horse.'

I posted exactly once in this thread - in agreement with the idea that you read more and post less. That was a general comment.
How you interpret that to mean I'm bending over backwards defending anything or anyone is beyond me.

Is this better?

I realized I couldn't be sure about that. But when you say "+1" about a post, you seem to be supporting the essential point -- which was his view of that post by the OP, and that mine was wrong and so I must not have read it.

Unless you agree with his take on that post, "+1" wasn't a terrific idea.

And if that's your take on the post, I stand by what I said.

Again, read more, and post less.
The +100 was in agreement of the portion of the post I quoted. Go back and read it.
As John v.d.B. said: no one has heard both sides of the story. Because of that, I'm not willing to defend or demonize this teacher.
As usual with PW, there's a lot of jumping to conclusions about this teacher in this thread.

Interesting way to tell someone to shut up. Nice. Guess what? As long as Mark C. has something to say, he should be allowed to say it without having the mod squad butt in.

Phlebas, the purpose of this discussion is to understand teacher and student interactions and (mis)communication. That can help any person on either side of the fence. The idea that there are good guys and bad guys and any such comic book stance is beneath this forum. It never was a question of who was wrong. There was a problem, and attempts to solve the problem. The real goal is not for one party to win against the other, but for both to work toward a common goal.

If people in general spent less time worrying about their egos, and more about seeing what goes wrong and what might go better, we'd all be in better shape.

Thank you.

It was completely gratuitous, unless he was expressing a stand on the main point of the thread, which he says he wasn't. And as per what you said, it wasn't too good regardless, because it was insulting.

This thread sure has generated a lot of heat, hasn't it......

One thing I have learned as mod is that everyone has their own point of view. The OP has gotten a LOT of helpful advice from both points of view and she has pretty much gotten the matter settled.

Whether the opinions expressed have been sympathetic to the op or not, you've all given her the benefit of some good food for thought. I am going to end this discussion now, not because of anything that anyone has said, but because it looks like things will be sliding downhill from here.

Ken