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#1425581 - 04/27/10 10:10 PM "Winter Snow" - Fast paced Romantic Style Water Piece
Claude56 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/02/09
Posts: 469
This is a sample of my composition(framework) inspired by Chopin, Liszt, and Fats Waller(who had a soft, watery touch). Though this sample only provides the framework for what I'm going to do with this piece in the future, in the future I'm going to change it a little bit more to make it sound a little bit more "watery"


This sample is in WAV. format, so make sure your music player can support it. The sample lasts only 1 minute and 8 seconds:

http://www.mediafire.com/?icwzzyzwoki


Hope you like/enjoy it!









Harmonic Analysis: This sample starts in D Major, than transitions to B Major, then to F# Major, Then goes into Bb Major, then into G Major, then F Major, Then Ab Major

So actually, this piece modulates quickly and can be thought of as not having any true tonal center at all, so in the long run, you can make it sound like the "water" theme lasts throughout the whole piece.


Edited by noSkillz (04/27/10 10:24 PM)

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#1426348 - 04/29/10 05:34 AM Re: "Winter Snow" - Fast paced Romantic Style Water Piece [Re: Claude56]
Mr Linus Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/12/10
Posts: 46
Loc: Australia
Wow really really nice! Very impressive.. It seems very influenced by Debussy with the arpeggios and chord progressions. You like Debussy?
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Music is what feelings sound like.

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#1426369 - 04/29/10 07:34 AM Re: "Winter Snow" - Fast paced Romantic Style Water Piece [Re: Mr Linus]
Claude56 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/02/09
Posts: 469
Originally Posted By: Mr Linus
Wow really really nice! Very impressive.. It seems very influenced by Debussy with the arpeggios and chord progressions. You like Debussy?


Yes, VERY. But the only thing I don't like about his music is when he uses augmented chords and diminished chords and nondiatonic harmony.

I want my piece to be uptempo like Ravel's Jeux Deau, but I want the ENTIRE piece to sound as bright as Debussy's Arabasque, but uses as many runs and fills as Liszt's Le Jeux d'Eau a la Villa d'Este" - All without using seemingly nondiatonic chords and without boring the listener.

But I feel like my piece could be better and maybe it could flow a little bit better, any suggestions? Any specific suggestions at specific places in the sample?



Edited by noSkillz (04/29/10 10:44 AM)

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#1426959 - 04/30/10 06:27 AM Re: "Winter Snow" - Fast paced Romantic Style Water Piece [Re: Claude56]
Mr Linus Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/12/10
Posts: 46
Loc: Australia
Haha I agree with you on Debussy's non diatonic music, but his use of augmented and diminished chords can be beautiful when he hides them under great melodies, like in parts of the arabesques!

Maybe to improve it give it a more memorable pattern in the melody, some sequences or motifs. Because whilst it does sound very pretty, I can't remember a single bit of it after listening to it. Also, maybe have some more breaks to let the music breath a bit, like Debussy said, "Music is the silence between the notes."
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#1426962 - 04/30/10 06:50 AM Re: "Winter Snow" - Fast paced Romantic Style Water Piece [Re: Mr Linus]
Claude56 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/02/09
Posts: 469
Originally Posted By: Mr Linus
Haha I agree with you on Debussy's non diatonic music, but his use of augmented and diminished chords can be beautiful when he hides them under great melodies, like in parts of the arabesques!

Maybe to improve it give it a more memorable pattern in the melody, some sequences or motifs. Because whilst it does sound very pretty, I can't remember a single bit of it after listening to it. Also, maybe have some more breaks to let the music breath a bit, like Debussy said, "Music is the silence between the notes."



I don't remember any augmented or diminished chords in Arabesque!


Oh Linus, which piece do YOU like better?

The Arabesque or Liszts Jeux Deau?


Edited by noSkillz (04/30/10 07:22 AM)

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#1427098 - 04/30/10 12:05 PM Re: "Winter Snow" - Fast paced Romantic Style Water Piece [Re: Claude56]
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2760
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Originally Posted By: noSkillz
Originally Posted By: Mr Linus
Wow really really nice! Very impressive.. It seems very influenced by Debussy with the arpeggios and chord progressions. You like Debussy?


Yes, VERY. But the only thing I don't like about his music is when he uses augmented chords and diminished chords and nondiatonic harmony.

Actually I like the nondiatonic harmony. In general I liked the piece, but the fact that it doesn't settle on a tonal center presents structural issues which are, I believe, the heart of what you find less satisfying about it. If you can find a way to rationalize settling into a tonal center as a way to end the piece you may find that in itself a sufficiently satisfying ending.

One last note Lame is a very good free MP3 encoder. There's just no reason to post WAV files.

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#1427159 - 04/30/10 01:28 PM Re: "Winter Snow" - Fast paced Romantic Style Water Piece [Re: Steve Chandler]
Claude56 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/02/09
Posts: 469
Originally Posted By: Steve Chandler

Actually I like the nondiatonic harmony. In general I liked the piece, but the fact that it doesn't settle on a tonal center presents structural issues which are, I believe, the heart of what you find less satisfying about it. If you can find a way to rationalize settling into a tonal center as a way to end the piece you may find that in itself a sufficiently satisfying ending.

One last note Lame is a very good free MP3 encoder. There's just no reason to post WAV files.



Steve, did you notice the modulations in my piece or were they hard to notice?

This is taken from my ipod, so the sound is a little bit different from the usual sound.


Oh and by the way, the melody of this piece was NOT planned out. The melody of my piece came out of my improvisation scheme, so actually the melody you hear is not a real melody, but is rather a product of the accumalation of ideas in my improvisation.

So do you think that if I actually planned out a real melody, played in the upper registers of the keyboard, my piece would sound better?



Edited by noSkillz (04/30/10 06:45 PM)

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#1427365 - 04/30/10 07:35 PM Re: "Winter Snow" - Fast paced Romantic Style Water Piece [Re: Claude56]
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2760
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
After about 15 seconds the piece loses the melody and becomes more about harmonic changes. At about 45 seconds it gets less interesting. If it was my piece I would find a way to bring that melodic focus back and then shift back and forth between them. You could use that structure of contrast to make a nice piece with just the materials you have (plus a bit of development).

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#1427430 - 04/30/10 09:16 PM Re: "Winter Snow" - Fast paced Romantic Style Water Piece [Re: Steve Chandler]
Claude56 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/02/09
Posts: 469
Originally Posted By: Steve Chandler
After about 15 seconds the piece loses the melody and becomes more about harmonic changes. At about 45 seconds it gets less interesting. If it was my piece I would find a way to bring that melodic focus back and then shift back and forth between them. You could use that structure of contrast to make a nice piece with just the materials you have (plus a bit of development).


So that's why most people wouldn't like my piece - because it loses sight of the melody.

Now that I have got the harmonic changes down, I have recently thought up of some melodic motifs from Renaisance music and I plan on adding them to my piece somehow - just that I would have to change the rhythms and to combine Debussy flavors with Renassaince music to make it all fit right.


Edited by noSkillz (04/30/10 09:43 PM)

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#1427472 - 04/30/10 10:46 PM Re: "Winter Snow" - Fast paced Romantic Style Water Piece [Re: Claude56]
Mr Linus Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/12/10
Posts: 46
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: noSkillz


I don't remember any augmented or diminished chords in Arabesque!


Oh Linus, which piece do YOU like better?

The Arabesque or Liszts Jeux Deau?



I prefer the arabesques, they amaze me every time I hear them. You know that Debussy wrote two right?
_________________________
Music is what feelings sound like.

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#1427740 - 05/01/10 11:32 AM Re: "Winter Snow" - Fast paced Romantic Style Water Piece [Re: Claude56]
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2760
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Originally Posted By: noSkillz

Now that I have got the harmonic changes down, I have recently thought up of some melodic motifs from Renaisance music and I plan on adding them to my piece somehow - just that I would have to change the rhythms and to combine Debussy flavors with Renassaince music to make it all fit right.

Sounds interesting. I look forward to hearing it. But please post a MP3 instead of a WAV file.

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#1428037 - 05/01/10 09:36 PM Re: "Winter Snow" - Fast paced Romantic Style Water Piece [Re: Steve Chandler]
Claude56 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/02/09
Posts: 469
Originally Posted By: Steve Chandler
Sounds interesting. I look forward to hearing it. But please post a MP3 instead of a WAV file.


Here is the new piece, now with a melody(probably not the best melody) added and the bass is rearranged:

http://www.mediafire.com/?ex2tggzkyxy

It probably still needs a little work though. So when you were talking about contrast, were you talking about switching back and forth between the melody and some runs and fills?


Edited by noSkillz (05/01/10 09:37 PM)

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#1428181 - 05/02/10 06:20 AM Re: "Winter Snow" - Fast paced Romantic Style Water Piece [Re: Claude56]
Mr Linus Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/12/10
Posts: 46
Loc: Australia
Definitely an improvement! Wow... Nice as! One part of it (The melody from 31 to 33) is now even stuck in my head which is a great sign of improvement.
_________________________
Music is what feelings sound like.

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#1428277 - 05/02/10 11:26 AM Re: "Winter Snow" - Fast paced Romantic Style Water Piece [Re: Claude56]
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2760
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Originally Posted By: noSkillz

So when you were talking about contrast, were you talking about switching back and forth between the melody and some runs and fills?
Yes, exactly,

This piece is very nice, but seems to meander. So you've composed a nice idea and there's some development, but it's mostly harmonic shifts. This is where composing gets interesting. The idea is to build a dramatic line so a piece goes from start to finish in a way that engages the listener and expresses some meaning. How do you do that? That's the idea behind every classical form. Sonata form works contrasting theme groups. Rondo is a single idea that returns after excursions to other places. Variations is just that. Another possibility is Binary form (ABA).

What are the tools used to generate contrast and variation? Rhythm, harmony, melody, register, texture (instrumental or harmonic density), counterpoint and imitation. There are so many possibilities that it can be daunting. That's why an empty sheet of paper can be intimidating.

In your case you have some ideas and you have a general style to work within. That's all good. The fewer possibilities the more focused you can be. You wouldn't throw a section into this piece that sounded like Beethoven. So think about how you can vary what you have in a way that makes sense over time. Develop a plot for your piece, how it will rise and fall, moments of drama and repose. I like to think that composing music is sculpting time with sound. One thought to keep in mind reuse old ideas in new guises. Themes are like characters in a novel, they develop over time. When they return after being gone for a while they should sound different. After all, the snowfall ends, then the wind blows, then the sun shines, then the weather warms and the snow melts. Maybe you don't want to tell all of that story, but even if you limit it to one snowflake's fall to the ground it will first grow in the clouds, fall through the air, then maybe hit a tree and land on a limb and sit there until too much snow accumulates and it all falls to the ground.

If you develop a story you don't have to tell anyone about it, but the idea will inform your creative vision and efforts. In my experience telling people the story only spoils their enjoyment, they'd rather make up their own story. That's OK with me as long as they listen and enjoy. You've got us listening so now take your time and develop the story and write the music to express that.

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#1430463 - 05/06/10 05:01 AM Re: "Winter Snow" - Fast paced Romantic Style Water Piece [Re: Steve Chandler]
ShiftyGeezer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/27/10
Posts: 30
Everything Steve said! wink Great playing and very Debussy-esque, but lacking structure and it does just wander. Every now and then I'd hear the beginnings of a theme but it was never developed, instead changing to something else. It was very dreamy and light, but didn't have something to hold onto, as it were.

The second version is much easier to listen to and has a 'central character' to follow, as it were, but I caution you against getting bogged down in a hammered-out melody on the top as some prescribed ingredient. Not that I'm saying you are, as this is just a clip, but aim to find a happy medium between your first take and your second, and I'll think you'll have something special as a result.
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My "Untrained Pianist" YouTube channel : http://www.youtube.com/user/DavidGCoombes

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