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#1426341 - 04/29/10 05:15 AM Roland HP 305 hum
goatfreed Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 24
Hi, I'm new to digital pianos since I've only played acoustic pianos in the past. Now I got myself a HP 305 and am quite happy with it.

But I noticed that when it's quiet in the room in the evening that the piano when turned on is humming. Basically when you turn it on it starts to emit a silent hum. When playing it's obviously not audible because of the piano sound itself, but when not played there is definitely a hum.

Is this normal for a digital piano or might this be a defect?

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#1426351 - 04/29/10 05:53 AM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: goatfreed]
paddy1nz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/17/10
Posts: 32
My Technics PR604 used to do that. It was SOOO loud to me, I had to use headphones all the time, although no one else ever seemed to be able to notice it. I hated it (though loved the Technics itself). Just getting back into DPs (have been out for a few years), so don't know your instrument - has it got an LCD screen? It could be the screen emitting that noise.

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#1426359 - 04/29/10 07:07 AM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: paddy1nz]
Bob Newbie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 1549
How's the house wiring? could be the outlet's not properly grounded..

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#1426394 - 04/29/10 09:01 AM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: Bob Newbie]
jmmec Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/02/10
Posts: 86
Loc: New Mexico (yes, USA!)
Hmmm... I do not have this problem on an HP-307 that I have.

Regards
_________________________
Roland HP-307
Roland Quad-Capture

https://vimeo.com/58278342

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#1426409 - 04/29/10 09:30 AM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: jmmec]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Does the level of the hum change when you change the volume, or is it constant?
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#1426419 - 04/29/10 09:50 AM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: dewster]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
Had this with my Kawai CP136. Finally I found, it was not the piano, it was the piano lamp that I had on top of it.
If it has a transformer it can make noise also when switched off.

Peter
_________________________
1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6


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#1426437 - 04/29/10 10:28 AM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: hpeterh]
bkmz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 142
Loc: Belarus
I had the same problem with my CLP330. But the hum was heard only when setting volume to max (which is too loud to play in room).
_________________________
ex-Yamaha CLP 330

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#1426506 - 04/29/10 01:15 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: bkmz]
goatfreed Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 24
The hum is constant independent of the volume setting. Really odd, couldn't hear it in the store obviously since there it's never 100% quiet. Also tried plugging it into the wall socket as the sole device without a multiplug - still humming. Any 305 owner who can comment on this?


Edited by goatfreed (04/29/10 01:16 PM)

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#1426507 - 04/29/10 01:15 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: dewster]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2386
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: dewster
Does the level of the hum change when you change the volume, or is it constant?

Similar question, can you still hear it with headphones plugged in - from across the room with headphones off (your ears), and also in the headphones? So the question is it coming from the sound system or somewhere else?

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#1426520 - 04/29/10 01:34 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: spanishbuddha]
Stephen Lacefield Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/29/06
Posts: 195
Loc: St. Louis, MO
I think the Rolands hum because they don't know the words...
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#1426560 - 04/29/10 02:55 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: Stephen Lacefield]
goatfreed Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 24
The hum is there when the headphones are plugged in, but it's not audible in the headphones (the piano itself is humming independent of headphones plugged in or not). It is not audible across the room (it's not that loud). Basically it fades afer 3 metres.

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#1426567 - 04/29/10 03:05 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: goatfreed]
goatfreed Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 24
After some research I think it is transformator hum which is 100hz since here in Austria we have 50hz AC. Also it sounds exactly like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ufa4bXViA4). Unfortunately it seems that this a physical phenomenon, so I assume all digital pianos should have this problem more or less except if the manufacturer somehow isolates the transformator.

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#1426586 - 04/29/10 03:35 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: goatfreed]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted By: goatfreed

But I noticed that when it's quiet in the room in the evening that the piano when turned on is humming.


Any hum should be at a level that is un-detectable by human hearing - in other words you should never hear it underany condidtion.

Somehow noise from the AC main power line is getting into the piano and being amplified. Actaully it takes a bit of enginerring skill to design an audio system that does not hum. You might notice that cheap, low cost audio equipment will hum. The piano shouldn't. Either the unit is defective, something wriog inside the power supply or yu have a BIG source of noise in your house, one strong enough to get past all the tricks the engineers use to keep it out.

One way to diagnose this is to turn off everything else in the house. And I mean everytrhing, TVs lights and even unplug every wall transformer, cell phone charger Note that to turn some many devices (TVs, stereos, refrigerators) off you must unplug them.

If that does not solve the hum then it is something inside the piano.

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#1426595 - 04/29/10 03:42 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: goatfreed]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted By: goatfreed
After some research I think it is transformator hum which is 100hz since here in Austria we have 50hz AC. Also it sounds exactly like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ufa4bXViA4). Unfortunately it seems that this a physical phenomenon, so I assume all digital pianos should have this problem more or less except if the manufacturer somehow isolates the transformator.


Typically transformers are "varnished" After they are made they are placed in vacuum to remove the air from between the coils of wire then dunked in varnish then baked. The goal is to make them silent and not vibrate. What you've got is either a defective transformers or a cheaply made one. It should not make any noise. Yes isolating it by mounting it on rubber might help but they should not vibrate.

Many manufacturers do isolate the transformaer. My Yamaha DP uses an external transformer that connects to the piano with a long DC power cable.

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#1426611 - 04/29/10 04:13 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: ChrisA]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
So you only hear it when the piano is actually turned on, correct?

Is the power connector two conductor (as it shows in the HP-307 US owner's manual) or three conductor (w/ ground)?
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#1426689 - 04/29/10 05:33 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: ChrisA]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3837
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: ChrisA
Any hum should be at a level that is un-detectable by human hearing. ... Somehow noise from the AC main power line is getting into the piano and being amplified ... Either the unit is defective, something wriog inside the power supply
Quite right. If a nearby noise source cannot be identified, then I'm guess the piano is defective. If so, let it be Roland's warranty issue rather that your own headache. Get it fixed.

As for transformers ... do these pianos even have them anymore. Transformers are so 1950's. Most equipment these days use switching power supplies. No hum. (A very high pitch squeal, maybe. A dog might hear it. But no hum at all.)

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#1426730 - 04/29/10 06:58 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: goatfreed]
bkmz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 142
Loc: Belarus
Originally Posted By: goatfreed
After some research I think it is transformator hum which is 100hz since here in Austria we have 50hz AC. Also it sounds exactly like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ufa4bXViA4). Unfortunately it seems that this a physical phenomenon, so I assume all digital pianos should have this problem more or less except if the manufacturer somehow isolates the transformator.


Oh, I was wrong. That's not hum from CLP330. It was rather "white noise".
_________________________
ex-Yamaha CLP 330

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#1426741 - 04/29/10 07:16 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: MacMacMac]
NikkiPiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 172
Loc: Hertfordshire, UK
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
As for transformers ... do these pianos even have them anymore. Transformers are so 1950's. Most equipment these days use switching power supplies. No hum. (A very high pitch squeal, maybe. A dog might hear it. But no hum at all.)


Do you think this could be to do with reliability and cost? For example, I find that the new electronic (switching) ballasts for fluorescent lighting don't seem to last as long as the less expensive magnetic ballasts.

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#1426826 - 04/29/10 11:02 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: NikkiPiano]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3837
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: NikkiPiano
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
As for transformers ... do these pianos even have them anymore. Transformers are so 1950's. Most equipment these days use switching power supplies. No hum. (A very high pitch squeal, maybe. A dog might hear it. But no hum at all.)


Do you think this could be to do with reliability and cost? For example, I find that the new electronic (switching) ballasts for fluorescent lighting don't seem to last as long as the less expensive magnetic ballasts.
I can't speak about that kind of equipment. But for consumer electronics ... the use of switching power supplies cuts the size and weight (by eliminating the transformer), and it improves efficiency.

With a regular transformer-based linear power supply, about 5% of the device's total power consumption gets wasted as heat in the power transformer. That energy loss is largely eliminated when using a switching power supply.

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#1426842 - 04/29/10 11:36 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: MacMacMac]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California

Quote:
As for transformers ... do these pianos even have them anymore. Transformers are so 1950's. Most equipment these days use switching power supplies. No hum. (A very high pitch squeal, maybe. A dog might hear it. But no hum at all.)


All power supplies have transformers. The switching supplies use smaller transformers working at higher frequency but still it's a transformer

Most high end audio equipment still uses linear power supplies. Most of the cheap wall wort supplies are linear too.

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#1426916 - 04/30/10 03:07 AM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: ChrisA]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
My CP136 has a very large and solid transformer inside.

Switching power supplys where not used in quality audio devices for a long time, because they all where a strong source for interference.
Only in newer time it was possible to use them, because it was possible to rise the switching frequency to 100kHz and more, using modern semiconductors and coils.

But even today linear supplys with transformers are in use.
There is a physical phenomenon, named "magnetostriction" that causes every transformer to produce some hum, regardles how solid it is build. Normally this is not audible, but if the transformer has direct mechanical connection to a resonance board, wood or else, it can become audible.
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#1426941 - 04/30/10 04:26 AM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: hpeterh]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9369
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Don't worry Stephen, it got a laugh at this end. wink

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1427016 - 04/30/10 09:13 AM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: Kawai James]
goatfreed Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 24
Thanks for all the feedback. It's a shame that you'll never notice this in a shop, but only once you got the piano and turn it on in the evening.

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#1427068 - 04/30/10 11:19 AM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: jmmec]
Mr Romance Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/11/09
Posts: 102
Loc: USA
If you not mind me asking, how much did you pay for your HP 307?
_________________________
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#1427163 - 04/30/10 01:33 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: goatfreed]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2386
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: goatfreed
Thanks for all the feedback. It's a shame that you'll never notice this in a shop, but only once you got the piano and turn it on in the evening.

Can you tell us where it's coming from? Thanks. It sounds like you've accepted it as a, errr,,, 'design' limitation? I can't hear any hum from my cheaper DP in a quiet room.

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#1427176 - 04/30/10 01:47 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: spanishbuddha]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
I know about a hum in Yamahas CVP509. Some customers hear it, others do not.
If a customer complains, then Yamaha sends a technician. He/she will cut a trace on the PCB and this will fix the problem.

That said, doesnt mean that it is a similar problem. It could be as simple as a loose screw at the transformer that has to be tightened.

If it disturbs you, ask the dealer, maybe he has technicians that know about it or ask at Rolands service.
If you are unsure about it, test if other people hear it.
/
Peter
_________________________
1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6


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#1427192 - 04/30/10 02:04 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: hpeterh]
goatfreed Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 24
Yes, other people hear it as well. The hum comes from the slits on the left and right side above the keyboard. I assume they are speakers? I will go to the dealer again once I have time to do so and see if the piano they have on display also hums. I didn't pay attention at all since in the shop it obviously is not dead silent like at home in the night.

@Mr Romance: I got a 305 and paid €2000 here in Vienna.

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#1427229 - 04/30/10 03:02 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: goatfreed]
jmmec Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/02/10
Posts: 86
Loc: New Mexico (yes, USA!)
Yes, those two slits (at the top of the piano) are where two 5cm speakers are located (one on each side).
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#1428456 - 05/02/10 05:15 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: jmmec]
goatfreed Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 24
the power connector has no ground. so can the hum still be a ground loop? I am a total newbie when it comes to audio equipment, but I read that ground loops are the main source for hum in audio equipment.

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#1428466 - 05/02/10 05:29 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: goatfreed]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2386
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: goatfreed
the power connector has no ground. so can the hum still be a ground loop? I am a total newbie when it comes to audio equipment, but I read that ground loops are the main source for hum in audio equipment.

Do you have anything else connected? PC, amp, headphone, etc.

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#1428477 - 05/02/10 05:57 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: spanishbuddha]
goatfreed Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 24
No the piano is the only thing in the wall socket. I've also tried a different wall socket with no change.

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#1429097 - 05/03/10 04:49 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: goatfreed]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2386
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: goatfreed
No the piano is the only thing in the wall socket. I've also tried a different wall socket with no change.

From the manual:
Using the unit near power amplifiers (or other equipment containing large power transformers) may induce hum. To alleviate the problem, change the orientation of this unit; or move it farther away from the source of interference.

After this I'm out of ideas, other than it's a defect.

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#1429543 - 05/04/10 01:08 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: spanishbuddha]
goatfreed Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 24
conclusion: I went to the dealer and looked at the unit on display. it hums as well. then I asked Roland tech support and they said that this is due to 50hz transformator hum and not a defect.

I also listened to all other digital pianos at the dealer (who had only another roland 201 and the rest were yamahas). none of them hums smile. anyway I guess I will just live with it. it's just a shame that roland made a really good digital piano and then put in such a bad sound system. I compared with e.g. the Yamaha 330 and the Hp 305 feels definitely more natural to me as a piano (this is the first digital I really play on, before I played on an upgright and a grand that my mom owns).

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#1429652 - 05/04/10 05:29 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: goatfreed]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2386
Loc: UK
Still puzzled. Isn't the power supply connector into the HP305 DC?

For example with my DP there is an AC power adapter that plugs into the wall socket, but the output from that adapter is 12V DC which drives the DP. Unless it's poorly smoothed there shouldn't be that much 50/60Hz ripple getting into the audio system. Try a new adapter if that's the case.

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#1429675 - 05/04/10 06:03 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: spanishbuddha]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3837
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: spanishbuddha
Still puzzled. Isn't the power supply connector into the HP305 DC?

For example with my DP there is an AC power adapter that plugs into the wall socket, but the output from that adapter is 12V DC which drives the DP. Unless it's poorly smoothed there shouldn't be that much 50/60Hz ripple getting into the audio system. Try a new adapter if that's the case.
Smaller DPs and keyboards have outboard power supplies, like yours.

Larger consoles have inboard supplies, like most other appliances. The HP305 has no adapter ... just an AC power cord.

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#1429921 - 05/05/10 09:25 AM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: MacMacMac]
goatfreed Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 24
That's right. The Power supply is internal.

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#1430189 - 05/05/10 05:28 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: goatfreed]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2386
Loc: UK
Hmmm...bummer. Thanks for the info though. The HP305 was under my consideration, although slightly out of budget.

I went to my local dealer today, turned the volume full up on the HP305 there and could hear a hum. I did the same thing on an HP307 and no hum.

It's a pity and I think that for my use I have to strike it from my list. Maybe I'm just being too picky and the hum would go unnoticed amongst the other hummers in my home: fridge, sub-woofer, audio, surround sound, etc. Mainly just the fridge it's really loud.

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#1430195 - 05/05/10 05:37 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: spanishbuddha]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9369
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
spanishbuddha,

Would you ever play a digital piano at full volume, though?

In my opinion, at this volume level the instrument would be uncomfortably loud.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1430515 - 05/06/10 09:31 AM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: Kawai James]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2386
Loc: UK
Hi KawaiJames

No not even my old ears would want to have the piano at full volume.

It's just that, as the OP said, at normal volume in the store you can't hear the hum, and I was looking for more proof that there really was one.

I have to say I am surprised at this on one of Roland's new DP's, and for the price being asked I would be disappointed to get it home and hear an annoying hum in the silence of a room. Sometimes I think we're picky about things that are perhaps quite unimportant, but I worked hard for my money :-)

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#1430553 - 05/06/10 10:52 AM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: spanishbuddha]
tonkempen125 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/04/10
Posts: 4
I actually have exact the same hum in my piano, so perhaps it's a Roland thing... It's a 2005 Roland HP-7e. Just as being described here, the hum is discrete yet distinctive and since I noticed quite annoying too.

The hum originates from the inside somewhere on the top left, right where the power cord is plugged into the piano. I am very sure, reading here, that the topic-starter's hum is the same as what I am experiencing. Also the sound is NOT coming from any of the speakers, nor is it audible on the headphones, nor has the volume switch any influence on the presence or intensity of the hum.

I am btw living in Holland (The Netherlands, Europe) , we have 230V @ 50hz here, can that perhaps be of any influence?

Topic-starter, have you found a solution yet or a definitive answer to this?


Edited by tonkempen125 (05/06/10 10:59 AM)

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#1430574 - 05/06/10 11:39 AM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: tonkempen125]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted By: tonkempen125
..
I am btw living in Holland (The Netherlands, Europe) , we have 230V @ 50hz here, can that perhaps be of any influence?

Topic-starter, have you found a solution yet or a definitive answer to this?


I think your 230V 50Hz power could make a large difference. You have have a different transformers then used in North America or there would be a switch that causes only 1/2 of the primary winding to be used. Either way conditions are different.

If the piano is not under warranty there are some easy and some harder fixes to try. The simplest is mont the transformers with little soft rubber washers made for vibration isolation. The harder fix is to replace the power supply or move it to an external box

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#1432252 - 05/08/10 01:38 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: ChrisA]
goatfreed Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 24
@spanishbudda: the hum is not dependant on the volume of the piano. what I meant was the volume of the surroundings smile. so the piano hums even when the volume is at zero.

@tonkempen125: could be a European issue because I live in Vienna/Austria. But I don't see how having 50hz bd 60hz could result in a transformator hum.

One thing that I guess would help is opening the piano and disconnecting the transformator ground, but I don't think I'll go down that route. At least I won't as long as I've got warranty smile Anyway I don't mind that much, I still enjoy having a piano that feels excellent, sounds ok and most important I can play either with headphones or volume turned down when the kids are asleep. I briefly considered switching to a Yamaha, but I tried the Yamaha CLP 3xx line in the store and somehow they didn't feel right (that's very subjective of course). One of the main usages is also for my kids to learn piano and I want an instrument for them that's closest to a real piano in touch.

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#1432319 - 05/08/10 03:08 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: goatfreed]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3837
Loc: North Carolina
Power transformers operated from mains power will vibrate.
A good transformer, properly mounted, will not produce a noticeable hum.
But if there are problems with the design or construction, you may notice the hum.

With 60 Hz power, the hum will be at 60 Hz.
With 50 Hz power, the hum will be at 50 Hz.

When a device is designed to work from either 50 or 60 Hz power, it is sometimes the case that the hum is louder when operating from 50 Hz power than from 60.

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#1432438 - 05/08/10 05:23 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: MacMacMac]
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Germany
At 50 Hz the core of the transformer becomes 20% more saturated and produces more hum.

If this piano has a voltage selector and if this can be set to 240V then this could help to reduce the hum.

Peter


Edited by hpeterh (05/08/10 05:24 PM)
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#1432480 - 05/08/10 06:16 PM Re: Roland HP 305 hum [Re: hpeterh]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3837
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: hpeterh
At 50 Hz the core of the transformer becomes 20% more saturated and produces more hum. If this piano has a voltage selector and if this can be set to 240V then this could help to reduce the hum.
Well, that's a moot point, isn't it? There really isn't a choice. If the piano has a selector, it MUST be set to match the local supplied power. The other setting won't work.

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