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#1417905 - 04/15/10 12:42 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Jeff Kallberg]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19296
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Jeff Kallberg
As far as I can tell (research is still on-going), the term "Minute Waltz" originated in a German-speaking country sometime in the late 1870s.....

OK, I'm 0 for 1 already..... smile

Quote:
.....The title appears in German as "Der Minuten-Walzer" (sometimes without the hyphen) in programs in Germany and in England (German title in English programs), and with some uncertainty expressed about which Waltz the title applied to (which tells me that the title was new then). "Minuten" in German only refers to time, not to size (the term for the latter being "minuzioes").....

OK, now it's 0 for 2. smile
Although.....maybe you can understand -- "minuzioes" is so odd (for German or otherwise) that I had to check to see if it's still April 1. ha

Quote:
....The "my-NOOT" interpretation is a popular one (it recently reared its head on NPR), but - as far as I can tell - not one rooted in fact.....

Cool -- you knew this story -- and more.

Quote:
.....And I suppose the key point is that neither interpretation goes back to Chopin....

I did not know that either! I figured it was contemporaneous although inauthentic.

Quote:
.....Believe me, I rue those extra 5 seconds in my talk!....I thought I had it timed perfectly in my run-throughs. We were in the midst of a mini-heatwave, so I blame it all on my brain being addled by the heat. Either that, or rubato....

Undoubtedly the latter. Look, it's about Chopin! smile
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#1417920 - 04/15/10 12:59 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Mark_C]
LisztAddict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 2895
Loc: Florida
Could it be "menuet" or "minuet" and someone mis-spelled it?

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#1417929 - 04/15/10 01:10 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: LisztAddict]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19296
Loc: New York
(Oh no, look what I started......) ha
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1418083 - 04/15/10 05:29 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Jeff Kallberg]
JimF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/09
Posts: 1610
Loc: south florida
Quote:
Either that, or rubato


ha good line, Jeff. And thanks for the mini-lecture. I remember them being MUCH longer. cry

Jim (W75)
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#1418185 - 04/15/10 09:24 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Mark_C]
Jeff Kallberg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/11/09
Posts: 208
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Jeff Kallberg
As far as I can tell (research is still on-going), the term "Minute Waltz" originated in a German-speaking country sometime in the late 1870s.....

OK, I'm 0 for 1 already..... smile

Quote:
.....The title appears in German as "Der Minuten-Walzer" (sometimes without the hyphen) in programs in Germany and in England (German title in English programs), and with some uncertainty expressed about which Waltz the title applied to (which tells me that the title was new then). "Minuten" in German only refers to time, not to size (the term for the latter being "minuzioes").....

OK, now it's 0 for 2. smile
Although.....maybe you can understand -- "minuzioes" is so odd (for German or otherwise) that I had to check to see if it's still April 1. ha


It might look better if I stopped being lazy and spelled it properly with the umlaut:

minuziös

Jeff Kallberg

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#1418186 - 04/15/10 09:25 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: JimF]
Jeff Kallberg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/11/09
Posts: 208
Originally Posted By: JimF
Quote:
Either that, or rubato


ha good line, Jeff. And thanks for the mini-lecture. I remember them being MUCH longer. cry

Jim (W75)


Jim: In Wharton they can afford 2-minute lectures.

Jeff Kallberg

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#1418204 - 04/15/10 10:15 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Jeff Kallberg]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19296
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Jeff Kallberg
Originally Posted By: MarkC
....maybe you can understand -- "minuzioes" is so odd (for German or otherwise) that I had to check to see if it's still April 1. ha

It might look better if I stopped being lazy and spelled it properly with the umlaut:

minuziös

I figured it was that.....and no, it doesn't make it look any less impossible!

The only plausible thing it could seem to be is a lyric from Carmina Burana. ha

Or maybe some tiny kind of pasta (first cousin to spaghettios).....
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1418818 - 04/17/10 02:46 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Mark_C]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1402
Loc: near keyboard, mouth open
Kind of sounds like tiny pasta to me too.

Somewhere I saw a sign one could put on a door which said "Bach in a Minuet." But I don't think we're dealing with a "Minuet Waltz" here, LA. (Though the minuet in Chopin's 1st sonata is a kind of Minuet Mazurka.)

My music history teacher had a mat in front of his office that said "Dr. Spiro Will Be Bach in a Fugue Minutes." My automatic thought was always, "He'll never be Bach!" Not that anyone will be.

Dr. Jeff, it was great to see and hear you as something other than little marks as a screen. I really appreciate it when I have the opportunity to see folks from around here on video or hear their voices.

If the budget problems plaguing universities continue, perhaps one-minute lectures will become the norm....

The Friedman recording of the D flat waltz-- dang, that sure is fast. A minute and 34 seconds is obviously not nearly long enough to play this piece musically.

Elene
_________________________
Semi-Pro Musica

Blog: http://elenedom.wordpress.com
Website: http://elenelistens.com






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#1418821 - 04/17/10 03:12 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Elene]
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
Maybe it's about fish. Maybe it's the minnow waltz - - - Chopin was a Pisces after all.

(-Frycek slinks back into cave)
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

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#1418822 - 04/17/10 03:43 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: -Frycek]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1402
Loc: near keyboard, mouth open
One known to appreciate puns.

Elene

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#1419233 - 04/18/10 12:13 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Elene]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19296
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Elene
.....Dr. Jeff, it was great to see and hear you as something other than little marks as a screen.....

Well said....it's great when any of our beloved members 'come to life.'
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1419919 - 04/19/10 10:04 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Mark_C]
FrChopinFan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 67
Loc: southeastern USA
I saw an all-Chopin student recital at a local college this weekend, which was excellent. There was a short lecture right before the piano playing. The speaker was pointing out the feminine aspect of Chopin's music, citing his small stature, weakness brought on by illness requiring him to play softly, the women who flocked to hear him, and the fact that he wrote short pieces, which are associated with dance pieces, which are associated with women. And then the gender confusion further emphasized because he was in a relationship with a woman who dressed like a man. I thought it was a little odd, but my companions thought it was okay, and the college student among us said that gender identity is a common topic in academia.
_________________________
"That nice good-natured Chopin played for us a while. What a charming genius!" Delacroix

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#1419974 - 04/19/10 11:48 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: FrChopinFan]
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
Glad I wasn't there.
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Slow down and do it right.

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#1419986 - 04/19/10 11:59 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: -Frycek]
FrChopinFan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 67
Loc: southeastern USA
It seemed like a tired old [and outdated] idea backed up by general surface facts you could find on Wikipedia - I had actually expected something a little more in-depth, even if I hadn't agreed with the conclusions.
_________________________
"That nice good-natured Chopin played for us a while. What a charming genius!" Delacroix

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#1420047 - 04/19/10 02:08 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: FrChopinFan]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1402
Loc: near keyboard, mouth open
Sigh. Too bad you weren't there, Frycek.

FCF, have you checked out Jeff Kallberg's book, Chopin at the Boundaries? It goes into a great deal of detail about how gender identity was seen in Chopin's time and how that affected people's views of him.

While this flavor of gender confusion is one of the things I find charming about Chopin, I honestly doubt that he felt such confusion within himself.

By the way, as far as we know, Chopin rather disapproved of Mme Sand's masculine dress, and she went back to dressing like a girl fairly early in their relationship. (I don't know exactly when, and I don't remember where I learned that, or thought I did.)

Dance music associated with women? I suppose the men who did all those social dances with them were only dancing under extreme duress.

I am on the trail of a lesser-known historical figure, one I can't find out much about so far, and I'm wondering if J.A.S., or anyone, can enlighten me. The personage is Stanisław Starzyński, a poet who wrote under the name of Stach Doliwa (NOT the later lawyer/politician). We're told he was the future Countess Potocka's first "adorator," when she was only 13. Her family apparently didn't take him very seriously. However, I'm thinking there's a story in this.

I did find a poem of his just now:

Dumka Podolska

Na wschód patrząc swym zwyczajem,
Czego płacze to pachole?
Tęskni pono za swym krajem,
A tym krajem jest Podole.
A w tym kraju jest włość skromna,
A w tej włości miły domek
I kochanka tam niepomna,
Że ją kocha tęskny ziomek.

Otarł oczy, westchnął z cicha,
Przeklinając swą niedolę,
Ciągle za swym krajem wzdycha,
A tym krajem jest Podole.
A w tym kraju jest włość skromna,
A w tej włości miły domek
I kochanka tam niepomna,
Że ją kocha tęskny ziomek.

The estate of Delfina's family, the Komars, was in Podolia.

(I decided not to add a machine translation because they are so poor.)

Research continues.

Elene
_________________________
Semi-Pro Musica

Blog: http://elenedom.wordpress.com
Website: http://elenelistens.com






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#1420080 - 04/19/10 03:25 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Elene]
FrChopinFan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 67
Loc: southeastern USA
Originally Posted By: Elene

While this flavor of gender confusion is one of the things I find charming about Chopin, I honestly doubt that he felt such confusion within himself.


You certainly don't pick that up anywhere in his letters or quotes.

Originally Posted By: Elene

Dance music associated with women? I suppose the men who did all those social dances with them were only dancing under extreme duress.


In the lecture, the dance-tune aspect was tied into the belief of the era that women could only play short pieces because they were believed to have short attention spans and because they needed to conserve their strength for child-bearing, which may have been the case.

The lecturer brought up Mendelssohn, saying that he discouraged his sister from publishing her works and then regretted it after she died and spent the rest of his life working to get her works published. Would this be a different brother than Felix? Because I thought Felix had a stroke when he heard she died and died himself shortly after that.
_________________________
"That nice good-natured Chopin played for us a while. What a charming genius!" Delacroix

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#1420336 - 04/19/10 11:31 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: FrChopinFan]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1402
Loc: near keyboard, mouth open
I don't know much about the Mendelssohns, but Felix died six months after Fanny, so he probably couldn't have done all that much to promote her work after her death-- "the rest of his life" wasn't very long. They both died of strokes, as did several other relatives-- some familial defect? Felix didn't die directly after Fanny, though.

Apparently her husband did support her work and was not averse to having it published the way her brother was?

One question that vexes me is why Chopin was unwilling to meet Fanny despite her repeated entreaties.

Elene

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#1420362 - 04/20/10 12:17 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Elene]
FrChopinFan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 67
Loc: southeastern USA
I assumed it just wasn't high on his priority list, being so busy -- and I don't know if they spoke a common language.
_________________________
"That nice good-natured Chopin played for us a while. What a charming genius!" Delacroix

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#1420419 - 04/20/10 03:28 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Elene]
J.A.S Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 279
Loc: Warsaw, Poland
Originally Posted By: Elene
I am on the trail of a lesser-known historical figure, one I can't find out much about so far, and I'm wondering if J.A.S., or anyone, can enlighten me. The personage is Stanisław Starzyński, a poet who wrote under the name of Stach Doliwa (NOT the later lawyer/politician).

Elene, it seems you are now one of the best specialists on Stach Doliwa in the world. I've never heard of him before, he is not mentioned in any printed or digital lexicon or encyclopedia I have at home and not even in the Polish Wikipedia.

There is little information available online about him in addition to what you've provided above. I've found only one another poem of him.

His nom de plume consists of the diminutive form of his first name and the name of a well-known Polish coat of arms (probably his own).

Originally Posted By: Elene
I decided not to add a machine translation because they are so poor.

I prefer to not even think about a possible machine translation of this poem shocked . This is my non-poetic translation of the first stanza:

Looking east, as always,
Why is this young boy crying?
It seems he misses his country,
And that country is Podolia.
And in that country, there is a modest village,
And in it, there is a nice small house.
And a paramour, not aware
Of being loved by her longing compatriot.
_________________________
J.A.S

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#1420421 - 04/20/10 03:34 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: J.A.S]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1402
Loc: near keyboard, mouth open
Of course in reality the kochanka lived in a big fine house and was quite aware of being loved by a man three times her age, it seems.

Thanks, J.A.S..

Elene

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#1420706 - 04/20/10 04:47 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Elene]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1402
Loc: near keyboard, mouth open
Just noticed this:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1420704/Music%20Master:%20Chopin%20(Chopin%20H.html#Post1420704

Elene

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#1423227 - 04/24/10 10:22 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Elene]
LisztAddict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 2895
Loc: Florida

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#1423229 - 04/24/10 10:29 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: LisztAddict]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1402
Loc: near keyboard, mouth open
Hmm. The man who has everything now has tulips as well as vodka, an airport, a boat, a bunch of hotels, etc.

Too bad, after those 20 years of breeding efforts, they're pink rather than purple, but they are attractive, aren't they.

Elene
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Semi-Pro Musica

Blog: http://elenedom.wordpress.com
Website: http://elenelistens.com






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#1423248 - 04/24/10 11:13 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Elene]
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
He also has a clematis. Clematis Fryderyk Chopin, rather fittingly purple


And among the more exotic, but somehow more fitting, things He has is a typeface.
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

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#1423269 - 04/24/10 11:40 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: -Frycek]
FrChopinFan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 67
Loc: southeastern USA
I wonder when they'll ever have Chopin violets?

That's a lovely typeface; now if I can only remember which folder the download is supposed to be installed into...
_________________________
"That nice good-natured Chopin played for us a while. What a charming genius!" Delacroix

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#1423564 - 04/24/10 08:14 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Elene]
LisztAddict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/05
Posts: 2895
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Elene
Too bad, after those 20 years of breeding efforts, they're pink rather than purple, but they are attractive, aren't they.

Elene


They certainly look very pink in the pictures. But the plant was taken from Netherlands to Warsaw; the soil isn't the same, the weather isn't the same. I wish we could see how they really look in the original breeder garden.

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#1425171 - 04/27/10 12:58 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: LisztAddict]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1402
Loc: near keyboard, mouth open
Here's a commercial that has apparently aroused some controversy. Note the music in the background. It has never made me think of lingerie. I suppose now it will.

http://www.stylelist.com/2010/04/26/ashley-graham-model/?ncid=webmaildl3

I meant to post this a while back:

In reply to the fake Chopin quote posted in Byron Janis' WSJ article, which went like this,
"Bach is like an astronomer who, with the help of ciphers, finds the most wonderful stars. Beethoven infuses the universe with the power of his spirit. I do not climb so high. A long time ago, I decided my universe would be the soul and heart of man."

someone named Tim Harrell commented:

"Chopin wrote many works of indescribable beauty and, like the writer of the article said, he cannot be shoehorned into the categories of Classical or Romantic as he bridged both with his unique style. It's said that, like JS Bach, he never wrote a bad piece.

 When I listen to Beethoven I feel as if he was writing for the Cosmos - a grand whole of which I am but a part, a spectator; whereas with Chopin I can sit in an auditorium of 1000 people and still feel as if the music was written especially for me and forget that there are others around me who are thinking exactly the same thing.

It's that particular intimacy Chopin provides, which is a unique part of his genius."

I think Mr. Harrell makes an excellent point.

Sometimes I've wondered about what's going on with, say, the Elvis fans, with their tremendous zeal, in comparison with us Chopaholics. It turns out that one of my older patients is a rabid Elvis fan, and even met the man once. She expressed the same feeling, that no matter how many people were in the auditorium, it was like he was singing just for her, that it felt like a personal connection. That explains a lot.

Though I would prefer Chopin's fashion sense.

(I have no idea of his taste in lingerie, though.)

Elene

_________________________
Semi-Pro Musica

Blog: http://elenedom.wordpress.com
Website: http://elenelistens.com






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#1425328 - 04/27/10 04:00 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Elene]
Jeff Kallberg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/11/09
Posts: 208
Dear Elene,

I saw the commercial too. I wonder if we have Barry Manilow to blame (or, depending upon your point of view, to praise) for the background music?

There are some who think Chopin is briefly (pun intended, I suppose) channeling a funeral march in this Prelude. If word of this got out to the wider world, I wonder how lingerie sales would fare?

Jeff Kallberg

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#1425451 - 04/27/10 06:29 PM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Jeff Kallberg]
Elene Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1402
Loc: near keyboard, mouth open
Well, sex and death do often seem to be connected in people's minds... but I thought 28/20 was a strange choice. Maybe it implies that the intended customer is a strong and formidable woman, or something like that. Or that she is sophisticated enough to appreciate Romantic-period piano music?

(I'm not going to speculate on how Chopin might react to a lingerie model, of any size.)

Elene

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#1426396 - 04/29/10 09:06 AM Re: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin [Re: Elene]
Scrounger Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/23/10
Posts: 19
Loc: France
This is a fascinating thread. As an unabashed Chopin freak, I've learned a lot even after only going through 22 pages!

I know this might sound as a very archaeologist kind of thing to say, but I'm impressed with learning about the second (or perhaps I should say original) death mask, since objects always hold such fascination for me. I hadn't ever heard about this or seen it in any book. When I come back from the UK in a week, I shall have to search it out in Paris.

Has anyone thought a bit about the interesting theories of Chopin having CF rather than TB? I hadn't hear about Chopin having asthma but it makes sense as a fellow asthma-sufferer.

As my own small contribution to the thread, perhaps someone has spoken about it already but I haven't been able to get through all of this amazing thread, but I had the luck to go see the Polish film about Chopin's youth that was filmed in the early 50s. My review of it is that it is mainly a political commentary and only very loosely about Chopin's youth. It was about the proletariat, not just of Poland but of Europe in general. I thought the best part of the film was listening to the Mazurkas, caroles, and other Polish folk music. It is one thing to listen to Chopin's exceedingly refined Mazurka's played in a concert context or on a cd/mp3/whatever, it's quite another to see traditional Mazurkas being danced to. It was an incredible experience. The young man playing Chopin did an amazing job (I didn't catch his name unfortunately) though there was definitely some artistic license. The aspect of the film I disliked were the extensive communistic influences throughout, though I realise it was a reflection of the times the film was made. It seemed like a stretch to me that Chopin would have been out on the streets of Vienna when things started to go bad there after the fall of Poland and uprisings in Paris, Italy, etc. I know he loved his homeland dearly and could be seen as a rebel to especially the Russians at the time. However, from what I've read about Chopin, he was not one to revel in social unrest and would have most likely kept a low profile so that he could continue on to Paris.
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