Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum My Piano in EBVT III

Bernard, thanks for the link as well. However, when I went to the link you provided for the free real player codec, my browser came up with this link, http://safeweb.norton.com/report/show?url=3dnews.org which warns that it is not a 'safe' url. Do you have another website with this codec info? Or, can you change this file into an mp3 or .wav file? Thanks.

About the Chopin on the LX...that was recorded live by Mr. Wild on the Bosendorfer SE system back in the mid 1980's. The SE system recorded with 100% accuracy everything the pianist put in. The LX system can faithfully reproduce with just about 100% accuracy, any SE material, however, the piano action and adjustments of the LX must be well adjusted. I believe when I recorded that, we had just put in the WN&Gross back action kit. It needs to be adj further, but we/I did not have time to do it.

As Bill mentions, If I can get my classical pianist friend to come visit during Bill's time here, we will have a live performance AND an LX performance of the same pieces. What will be interesting is to post both of them, and not say which is the live person playing. Should be interesting. Stay tuned!

Hello GP,

Other download sources can be found here:
http://codecguide.com/download_real.htm

The files are streamed from a server, so one can not donwload them directly and convert them.

Bernhard Stopper

Thank you, Bernhard. I had no trouble with the installation. I have saved the files in Real Player format but I have no way to convert them.

Here is the opening number from the 2002 Jazz concert. It is a 14 1/2 minute file but there is a full minute of silence before the piano plays, so you can skip ahead 1 minute and then you will hear the music. The piano plays solo first and the alto saxophone follows. Then the piano has a solo. The engineering is unfortunately badly balanced with the Bass being louder than anything else.

It is a familiar tune but I can't think of the name of it at the moment.

http://www.box.net/shared/2sb4244s7b

Thanks for the link to Dr Kellner's writings.

It's just that in the context of music, the main theme of Pathetique's second movement (Ab) is largely thirds and other intervals. Brahms Intermezzo 117 No 2 (Db) uses many two note intervals, not just thirds.

I am not a member of any peanut gallery, Bill. I am a big fan of the ET via Marpurg sequence and the use of contiguous CM3 and applying the EBVT III sequence to a piano when setting a temperament. Like it or not, I've tuned several pianos in EBVT III with good results and managed to post some of my amateur recordings of side-by-side temperament comparisons of the same tune or tunes played in like keys in hopes others might find the direct comparison somewhat interesting.

I'll rephrase the question...when aurally tuning EBVT III, is there a method for quieting or slowing (even slightly) those faster beating intervals while at the same time maintaining much of EBVT III's personality?

Thanks in advance,
Glen

Glen, I'm glad you mentioned this one.

After Bill tuned my piano to EBVT III for the first time in January, the second movement of the Pathetique is the one I played for him. There was one particular chord that was bugging me in there, the E maj chord that starts the maj section of the Second Theme. He asked me if it was fixed and I said yes, because it really was! But the temperament was so new to me then, I wasn't sure what else I was hearing for a day or so of playing. Even though I knew I liked it initially, I was still making judgements about it. It's no secret that I am now totally sold on the EBVT III over ET.

But aspects of this movement bug me in both ET and EBVT III. For some reason, this movement still does not sound right to me whenever I play it. In EBVT III, striking the first chord, the Ab major, sounds "off." In ET, the first chord sounds right, but the second chord, I think it's an Eb maj 7, sounds "off." There are other things that bother me too, in both temperaments, depending on where I am in the piece. (I have a recording I made of this one in ET in December, so I can study it and remind myself). There are places that give me a very anxious feeling when I'm playing it, and I don't think this is an anxious piece.*

So, I tried something this morning, thinking about your question and all of the previous discussion about the influence of the key signature on the music and the way EBVT III brings it out. Remember, I am not a tuner, a technician, or a pianist (really), but I am a curious person. So I transposed the first phrase up a half-step to A maj, just to see what it would do. It's interesting. It's calmer and sweeter, but it loses a bittersweet longing that the Ab has, and that I think it is supposed to have.

Then, since that was so striking (to me, at least) I made a clip to share. It starts with the first phrase in Ab, plays the first phrase up a half-step in A, chords the first phrase in A, chords the first phrase back down a half step in Ab, and plays the first phrase again in Ab. It's a little minute and a half clip.

I realize that it might be the limitations of my piano that are causing me such grief with this piece of music that I love to play so much. But, for what it's worth, I am posting this clip hoping that it adds a dimension to the discussion as you get your question resolved. It is noteworthy that, as Bill has stated, the phrase played as the music is written does speak differently than the chorded phrase that is played in a more "interval testing" way. That's what I hear, anyway. You be the judge. Of course, I'm interesed to hear other's assessment of it as well.

Beethoven Op.13-2 Theme, Ab to A to Ab clip

--Andy

_____
*I do not have this same sense when listening to the clip. To me, the recording is easy enough to listen to (you know, for what it is...). I catch shades of disturbance, but nothing like when playing it. When I play this, especially that Ab maj chord, I just want to get off of it. I really do get an anxious feeling right in my solar plexus! No joke!

I have recently had the fortune of Nick at Nick's Pianos to tune my Hailun HG-218 in EVBT III tuning. It *really* sounds sweet! I can't thank Nick enough for the high quality tuning he did last weekend on my piano. I made a bunch of high-resolution recordings but I am still editing and converting a few of them. (Had to go see the Tampa Bay Rays finally win against KC today, so unfortunately might not get the other recordings up on the net until next weekend).

Anyway, the recordings came out pretty well I think. I kept the recording chain very minimal so that the noise floor was as low as possible.

Studio Project B1/B3 (in an AB configuration)
Presonus MP20 preamp
FMR Audio RNC 1773
Edirol R-09HR (recorded in 24bit/88.2KHz)
Edited in Sonar 6

So, here is Enya's piano piece called Watermark (off of album of same name). I uploaded to Google Docs at 3 different qualities so folks could download the best quality that was also convenient to their internet connection:

Enya-Watermark-HighQuality

Enya-Watermark-MidQuality

Enya-Watermark-LowQuality

I hope to upload a few other pieces very soon. The others are pieces that I have written or are just me doodling on the piano. Also the other pieces that I play have a lot more chords in them so are probably even better to gauge the sweetness of EVBT III.

Thanks again Nick! (and Bill too for teaching this method).
Ryan

Edit: Forgot to mention I unfortunately reversed the microphone inputs (I was going for a sound that the pianist would hear, bass to the left, high notes to the right). If listening to this on headphones I recommend listening with headphones on backwards (hopefully I'll find a software editing fix for this soon). Also, please forgive my sloppy playing, the best that an amateur like me can do!

Ryan--
Nicely done! Lovely piece, played lovely! I downloaded the HQ version and listened to it 4 times, now.

Isn't it exciting? Tell me if getting this new temperament on your piano is not like getting a new piano? It sounds so right.

Way to go to you, too, Nick!

Looking forward to your other recordings!

--Andy

P.S. Some sound editing software has a feature that lets you "rotate stereo" as an audio processing option. Another possibility is to open a new (or blank) wavefile project and copy and paste the left channel from the original into the right channel spot in the new form and do the same with the right channel from the original into the left channel in the new form.

The short answer is, no there isn't. You can't get something for nothing. For every thing you gain, there is something you lose. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Any number of other clichés may apply but that is simply the truth.

The difference between the original EBVT and the EBVT III is a good example of that. I still prefer the properties of the original EBVT. There are 4 pure intervals (5 if you count both F3-C4 and C4-F4). There are 4 equal beating intervals of the "magic" 6 beats per second. The beat synchronicity that Jason Kanter identified (the ratio of beating between the Major and minor thirds) is damaged somewhat by the EBVT III compromise. Having said that, the original EBVT had some intervals that were just too wide to be tolerable to some sensitive perceptions.

I appreciate all of your interest, Glen and your curiosity. Andy's contributions to this discussion always amaze me with the depth of perception he has.

ET is the ultimate compromise. The 12 tone scale must be tempered one way or another. The Comma presents us with a challenge of a certain amount of dissonance that cannot be eliminated. Tempering the scale will always be some kind of division of consonance and dissonance. Anytime any interval is made to be more consonant, another will become more dissonant.

So, ET as purely a theoretical idea creates the ultimate balance between consonance and dissonance. You might think of ET as going as far as it is possible to mitigate dissonance but the consequence of doing that is that all possible consonance is also eliminated.

For our entire lifetime, pianos have always been tuned in ET or at least, ET was the goal. Most of us have never even heard a keyboard instrument and certainly not a modern piano tuned in 1/4 Comma Meantone even though the latter had a much longer period of use as a "standard" way of tuning than ET has been considered standard.

We are used to hearing tempered intervals, so a truly consonant triad that would have a pure 5th and a pure M3 would actually sound strange to most of us. It would be truly and purely consonant but it may well be perceived as "dead". There would be no beating at all.

Let's just imagine that somehow an electronic keyboard could be designed so that each time any triad were played, it would always have a pure 5th and pure M3. Some computerized program would be able to change the tuning so that on the fly, as music was being played, each and every interval could be made beatless.

The quest for absolute consonance would be achieved but I am afraid that it would also mean that the music would sound completely lifeless. It could have no direction, no emotion at all, no reason to modulate to another key. It would be quite boring. It would amount to sensory deprivation.

There is a need in music to have consonance and dissonance. We can hear some music that is very consonant and calming such as that which a massage therapist would put on to relax the patient. I have experienced that. I can remember telling the therapist to shut it off because the "music" had no direction to it. It was nothing but sweet sound and that in itself was disturbing to me. The therapist seemed puzzled as to why I did not like the "music" but I simply answered, "It would be a very long explanation. I would just prefer quiet, thank you."

I am very glad that Andy put on his examples before I had the chance to respond. To me, the Beethoven piece sounds "right" in the EBVT III. Looking at Jason Kanter's graph of the EBVT III, the M3 for A-flat Major is 16.8 cents wide. (It is the same in the original EBVT). All ET M3s are 14 cents wide. The A-Major M3 in the EBVT III is 12.4 cents wide (and the same in the original EBVT). So, A-flat Major in either version of the EBVT is more dissonant than in ET and A-Major is slightly more consonant.

Either key in the EBVT produces a different effect from ET. If you consider that Beethoven would not have had his fortepiano tuned in ET, he chose the key of A-flat for a reason. His fortepiano would probably have been tuned in a temperament with an even wider M3 for the key of A-flat than either version of the EBVT offers. Beethoven did not have a modern piano, of course.

It could well be argued that the modern piano has its own characteristics and that music from the 19th Century forward is complex enough in nature that only ET will suffice. This is the conventional wisdom. But if you or anyone wishes to entertain the idea that a well-tempered system of tuning could really restore the character to the music that was actually intended and enjoyed at the time Beethoven wrote it, then it means that what you hear in the key of A-flat is what was meant to be there when the piano is tuned in the EBVT.

I suggest listening to Andy's examples carefully. As a piano technician, you have trained your ears to hear beat rates. You can hear the slightest gradation of them. Piano technicians who hold firmly to the ET only concept perceive any audible departure from ET as "wrong" and disruptive to the music. Those who have learned to appreciate well tempering hear something else: emotional character.

Glen, from what you have written and the questions you pose, I believe that you are still coming from the perspective of hearing beat rates more than music. Fortunately for most musicians, I think GP included, they do not hear beat rates in the same focused manner that a skilled piano technician does. Most listeners are able to enjoy the character of the different key colors that Cycle of 5ths based temperaments provide.

In Andy's examples, there is clearly a difference when he transposes. The key of A-Major sounds calmer and more consonant. But there is something that the chords do not do in that key but which they clearly do in A-flat. There is a certain sentimentality that goes right to the gut in A-flat that is completely lost in A-major.

If all you hear is intervals beating too rapidly, you have to look beyond that. Try to ignore the beat rates, just listen on a higher plane to what the sound of the music does for you. Is there not some kind of nostalgia that is evoked from that key of A-flat?

I thoroughly appreciate that you are not sitting in the "peanut gallery" hurling peanut shells and rude comments. I am taking the time not not give you a dismissive response out of respect for your genuine interest.

If you were to take the EBVT III and try to mitigate the width of the A-flat M3, you would have to make the G#3-C#4 4th which is pure, narrow. That would make the key of E-Major even harsher than it already is with a M3 at 14.8 cents wide. That is only slightly wider than it would be in ET but if you did that, it would create an "imbalance" in the scheme of well temperament. A-flat Major would sound "better" but E Major would sound "worse". You could slightly temper the F3-C4 5th but then that would detract from the desired consonance of C Major.

I have to admit that sometimes, I have actually narrowed the G#3-C#4 just a tiny bit to make the G#3-C4 M3 beat just a little less strongly. We all do something sometimes in aural tuning as a compromise. It is often called "fudging". The eventual description of the EBVT III is actually a "fudged" version of the original EBVT. The F#3 and E4 are both slightly sharpened.

As an aural tuner, you can do whatever you want. Who knows, you may even come up with a way to slightly alter certain notes very strategically that would produce yet another milder version of a well temperament. But if you want people to be able to replicate what you do, it has to be able to be described in a way that cannot be misinterpreted. The rules for well temperament do not allow a 4th to be narrow but the rules for a modified meantone do.

So, if in your aural tuning experience, you feel compelled to "fudge" any interval one way or another, you have the right to do that. After all, the reason an interval may sound too harsh could be the result of some previous error. Try to make sure that you haven't tuned another interval a little too wide or narrow that would make that the result. In the end, if well tempering is not satisfactory to you, then only ET or perhaps a quasi ET would be. Try to evaluate the effect that the temperament has on the music beyond beat rates taken out of context.

Ryan,

Thank you so much for your contribution! It came in while I was writing my detailed response to Glen. It surely is a pleasure to hear some sweet music as a reward. The key of F Major does sound so sweet on your piano. The key contrasts are easily heard when the piece does modulate but nothing sounds extreme nor even close to sounding out of tune.

I must congratulate Nick on doing a most excellent interpretation of the EBVT III! Nick tunes the most beautiful unisons possible. What Nick was able to do with such clear and solid unisons very aptly demonstrates how "color" in a tuning is best achieved through manipulation of temperament, not unisons.

I am very much looking forward to more contributions that demonstrate how the EBVT III brings life to piano music in a way that ET cannot.

Bill,
After I tell you this story, we might need to ask Ralph to comment about synchronicity. This is a little side-bar, but it underscores your point, and once again we find ourselves in agreement!

Anyone who works a trade and does not get massage therapy is missing the boat. So, every week, I go for this special "physical therapy" called "massage." After several months of care, I noticed that I kept hearing the same two or three CDs playing on the sound system, and that I could hum along to the ambient music. I knew where all the bird chirps were, and where all the gongs and chimes came in, etc. There was something seriously wrong with that picture.

I knew what to do. It was an emergency. I would make my new friends at the massage place some "mix" CDs of relaxing music (pleading fair use of the copyright law if ever busted). So, I went to the pullick liberry and checked out the limit of New Age CDs (10 at a time), and pulled from them selections that were quiet, relaxing, and more or less on the happy, pleasant side. I skipped everything eerie, avant garde, sad, or, as you indicated, "lifeless." I specifically chose music that "went somewhere," and music that was good enough to want to hear over and over again. After several trips to the library over a couple of days, I had two CDs to give them, which I rushed over days before my next appointment.

When I went for my appointment, everyone who worked there was smiling! The person who usually works on me is a very closed, taciturn individual. As soon as she came into the room, she said, referring to the music playing on the sound system, "This is one of the CDs you gave us." (I laughed inside--as if I didn't know...) I said, "Yes, I recognize it." Then she said, "I really like this one."

The whole mood of the place changed. I've made them probably 10 mix CDs, after listening to about 120 CDs of New Age music from the liberry from the As to the Zs. Music is very powerful. It can make you sick and it can make you well, and infinite shades and depth besides. I suppose that's why we find it so important to work so hard to get it right, and why we argue about is so passionately!

Thanks for your post above, Bill. Once again, I learned a whole big bunch!

--Andy

Andy, thanks for posting the Beethoven...I like what I hear!

Ryan, thank you for your contribution! I enjoy this kind of new-age piano music. I took your HQ file, ran it through my Audiogate software, which "normalized" it and added TPDF dither, which is what I am doing with all my recordings now, and then ran it through "Audacity", which was only used to reverse it. You can dload Audacity for free, and it's easy to use. Not sure about Audiogate, which came with my Korg MR-1000 digital recorder. I sent you a msg with the link to the mp3 I made of your Watermark HQ. Please feel free to use the link here, or dload it to your site and use it.

Btw, no apologies are necessary about your playing, it's great.

It sounds beautiful in EBVT III. Please keep them coming!

Andy, thanks a lot for your comments. I should correct the term I used, "synchronicity" to "synchrony" which is what Mr. Kanter called it. I am not sure if the two words mean the same or not. I only came to know of this particular property that a temperament would have when I asked Mr. Kanter if he had any idea why the 1/7 Comma Meantone had its own "magic". His response was very quick. He pointed to the fact that in the 1/7 Comma Meantone, all but the "wolf" triad have a perfect 2:1 ratio of beating between the Major and minor third in any Major triad.

By contrast, ET has each at the odd number ratio of 1.7:1. Every Major triad "fights" itself just a bit by the same amount. The original EBVT has no 1.7:1 ratios but the EBVT III has two in the E Major and B Major triads. I don't really know how significant this is but it is interesting, as Mr. Kanter pointed out to me, that the compromise I made to create the EBVT III ruined some of the beat synchrony that he considered to be the "magic" of the original EBVT and gave the EBVT III the same beat synchrony as ET has to two of the intervals.

It turns out that the key of E Major in the EBVT III is nearly identical to the way E Major would sound in ET but still, no tonality whatsoever, Major or minor in either the EBVT or EBVT III is exactly the same as it would be in ET. Each Major and minor triad is distinct from the other in the width of the Major or minor third and whether the 5th is pure or tempered. No 5th is tempered the same as it is in ET.

Bill,
What you just posted is very cool, and I swear I'm cutting tuner's teeth because I read it and I think I understand it--

but what I meant by Ralph commenting on "synchronicity" was in the sense of the word that is the title of a song by the Police! The lyric goes: "A connecting principle/Linked to the invisible." I was thinking of Ralph's "Fourier transform" post, about frequecies, which morphed in my mind to ripple effects, and the rhythm that would have us notice the same thing as we were getting a massage in different places at different times, that the music went nowhere and was particularly annoying. And that we would both express it here in some way.

In addition, while we're on the subject, I would think anyone who worked as a massage therapist would appreciate the concept of "tension and release" and would want to support that particular therapeutic effect with music that did the same.

Anyway, the word "sychronicity" does not appear in the old Webster's. But "synchrony" does. They are both nouns, in any case. And, in correcting the term, you brought us back to the topic and hand, EBVT III, so it looks like it's all good!

--Andy

Hi all,

When Grandpianoman posted "The Age of Innocence" in two different tunings a few weeks ago, I actually did a blind test to see whether I could recognise one from the other.

Well, he's now given links to all three tunings (a few posts back).

Has anyone here actually done a blind test to see whether he/she can recognise the tuning? I'd like to challenge everyone here to do this, and post their success rates here.

It's one thing to listen to a clip if you know what it is... hence my challenge. Have someone else open one of the soundfiles without your knowing which it is, then you guess the tuning, and have the helper write down your answer.

In my case (comparing the RCT and Stopper), I thought I could distinguish them, but the actual blind test had pretty shocking results.

Thanks grandpianoman! What a grand gesture (sorry poor pun ). I copied the corrected file over to Google docs so I can repost gpm's file. No flipping headphones around required on this one!

Enya-Watermark-StereoCorrect-HQ

Best Regards,
Ryan

This is a very good suggestion, Ralph. I wonder how many among the people that have condemned the EBVT III could actually identify ET 100% of the time?

Or, differently put, Bill, I wonder how many of the EBVT III enthusiasts could actually spot it reliably amongst the two ETs?

Cheers,
Mark (not Ralph)

The three recordings in question here are all not on a professional level.

Not astonishing that they are not very easy to distinguish for everybody in a blind test though, as temperamental differences and tonal effects caused by those differences (which would be present in an optimal representation) are erased to a certain degree by a random uncertainity.


Bernhard Stopper

Bernard, my recordings are not "professional" by any means, but they are well beyond good enough to hear the differences in tuning and temperament. One does not need a top professional or their equipment to hear these differences.

I think a possible explanation as to why one cannot distinguish easily between ET and Stopper is that that they are not all the much different from one another. They both sound very pleasing.

The Korg MR-1000 1-bit recording technology was originally only available, due to cost, to top recording studios and movie sound-stage studios. Now, we mortals can use it. The Korg is definitely a step up from the Zoom H4 that I was using. The Rode NT5 microphones, are professional mics used by pro-recording studios everywhere. The Avenson STO-2 mics are also used by the pros.


So with those explanations in mind, here is another example of ET and EBVT III. This is a "blind" test. Feel free to post what you think is the correct temperament. In the end, I think it would be a better idea to msg everyone who would like to know the correct answers, as opposed to posting the correct answers.....what do you all think? Unfortunately, I don't have a Stopper Only Pure recording of this Jazz piece.

Also, if there is any interest, we can have a 'blind' test comparison between ET and the Stopper Only Pure temperaments with Liszt's Ballade No.2, although I don't have that piece in EBVT III...yet.

This comparison test is a Jazz piece. One is in ET, using the Reyburn Cyber Tuner, OCT5 stretch, the other is in EBVT III, using the Iphone Tunelab. Both were normalized in Audiogate, and converted from a .wav file to an mp3 file in Audacity, using the highest quality settings for mp3's in both Audiogate and Audacity.


1. Jazz Temperament Test-No.1 http://www.box.net/shared/q33lmi9hfs

2. Jazz Temperament Test-No.2 http://www.box.net/shared/78og9iz3zd


I just noticed the "CHAS Theory" pre-set temperament on my Iphone Tunelab. Perhaps in the future, we can continue this, and include these other temperaments. It takes a lot of my time to tune and then re-tune my piano, so I can't promise this will be happening quickly.