Hi Jake,

1-bit recording has been marching into obscurity for the last 4-5 years or so. Technically it has many advantages over PCM but also a few disadvantages (and those are hard to overcome).

You can google Super Audio CD (SACD) or Direct Stream Digital (DSD) for more on its short-lived history.

Regards,
Ryan

Hey GP - excellent challenge, and good music!!

Since I am learning to tune both temperaments with respectable consistency - this is a good little test, here is what I perceive while making my way to work on the train.

Glen

Out of Africa
No 1 EBiii
No 2 ET

Jazz Temperament
Test 1 ET
Test 2 EBiii

Il Postino
No 1 EBiii
No 2 ET

After some more listening I think I can hear a difference in the other 2 pieces. I think:

Out of Africa 1 is ET, 2 is EBVT.
Jazz piece 1 EBVT, 2 ET.
(Still think Il Postino 1 ET 2 EBVT.)

I don't really hear any tuning, the pieces I think are EBVT sound a little warmer to me.

Hi everybody, I've been busy doing other vaguely related stuff (arranging and playing )



Nick and Bill, this is very much in line with my own findings - glad to find it confirmed here!

Glen, - I'm glad you bring this up. Here are the results of my own empirical research on the subject :

F#-A# easily gets a bit too wide if you favor the fifth instead of placing F#3 truly equal-beating (F#3-B3/F#3-C#4). Sometimes the 6:4 fools me into easing the tempering of the fifth, and that gives me this result.

C#4-F4 gets a bit too wide if the F3-F4 is larger than 4:2. Combine this with stretching generously in placing C#2, and you'll get a very fast 10th. I have chosen to error towards the narrow side if anything - that is, my F3-F4 is **absolutely not** wider than 4:2.

D#4-G4 gets a bit too wide if you stretch G4 a little too much in favoring the fifth C4-G4. This will also have you make a bigger compromise in the D4-D5 octave once you get up there. This balance (C4-G4-D5 vs D4-D5) is one of the hardest choices to make, just as Bill stated in his instructions to me some close to six months ago.
Again, combine this with a largely stretched D#3 and you'll have a very fast 10th.

Wild piano player... suddenly I miss the US Who is it?
The tune is "On Green Dolphin Street"

The pianist is James Williams but he died a few years after the recording was made.

Ah, I remember him from my NY days. His work with bass player Christian McBride is great!

Jake and GP,
what FogAudio says.

The idea is good, and it has many advantages over especially the cd standard 16-bit/44.1 kHz). The 64x oversampling splits the opinion, though, as do the reluctance to introduce yet another standard on the market.

When I mix pre-masters for CD I always send them in 24-bit or 32-bit float, because I know the receiver at the mastering plant can deal with them comfortably.

That said, it might be a very nice solution for a recording system that fits your needs, GP!

I noticed when I tried these chords that the G#2-C4 M10 seemed to beat exactly the same as the F3-A3 M3, 6 beats per second. Looking at Jason Kanter's graph, the G#3-C4 beats at 10.1 beats per second. That is not all that fast. The M10 would be half that amount and perhaps because of octave stretching, it very closely approximates that "magic" 6 beats per second.

Again, considering that Beethoven would probably have used a stronger temperament, he chose the key of A-flat for the "warble" it has. Herr Stopper once commented about that, like the voice of a warbly mezzo soprano in a church choir. That is the sound Beethoven wanted. ET takes it away, plain and simple.

Hey GPM,

My guess for EBVT III:

1. "Il Postino" Temperament test No.1

2. "Out of Africa" Temperament test No.2

Regards,
Ryan

Bill,

This is fascinating to hear you say this--because I learned when practicing this tune yesterday (Beethoven, Pathetique, movement 2) that if I slowed down my playing, and cooperated with the "beats"--the warbles as you call them--actually timed the tempo to play with them, everything inside of me calmed down. Plus, I heard a whistful whisssh in the beating of the chords that was behind the notes being played, which painted a picture of a dim memory. When that happend, I figured I understood what Beethoven was after. Problem solved, as far as I'm concerned!

--Andy

My guess is EBVT III on this one?

1. Jazz Temperament Test-No.1

I found this one harder than the other examples (or at least that is to say, I found the quick chord progressions of this particular piece harder to make a distinction than the other 2).

Also, GPM I'm curious if you are using a preamp with these recordings or using the Korg's mic inputs?

Really nice recordings and pieces! Also, I see that those Avenson mics are sold by Mercenary Audio. I trust most things sold by those guys (they seem fanatical about high-end). IIRC, that is how I heard about FMR's RNC!

Regards,
Ryan

Thanks, Patrick and Bill~~

This is a great starting point and most likely where the source of it is! I've gotten in the habit of stretching early on - from what you describe is that I need to do less of that.

My own piano is tuned EBiii for over a month with daily playing and it's settled in quite nicely with only having to shore up a few unisons. Follow-ups with the two folks that now play their pianos in EBiii indicate they are happy with their tunings. I follow-up after a couple of weeks.

It's interesting to note how pianos fall out of tune over time and/or react to the atmosphere (temp/humidity) and its affect on the piano's voice.

Wood, felt, and steel - what a combo!

Glen

Bill,

I know this is off-topic, but I'm very sorry to hear about your car accident. I hope you're ok, even if the car isn't. (And that the accident won't prevent further explorations in EBVT III...)

Thanks for all your posts regarding the temperament test. Will let this go a bit longer before compiling the results.

Ryan, I used the built-in mic preamps of the Korg. I should also add that there was no processing done to these recordings...no reverb, no manipulation of the original recording, other than a normalization of the sound levels and the addition of dither, using the Korg Audiogate software for those.

GP,

I'd be more than willing to take up the blindfold challenge, but I guess I have an unfair advantage (since you listed the mics and preamps earlier... )

I can PM you my answers, if you'd like to confirm or (possibly) put a final nail in my sound engineer's coffin

Hi Patrick,

LOL....you do indeed have that advantage I don't think I will be putting any nails in your coffin any time soon! PM me and I will send the key to you.

Tap, tap, tap...enquiring minds want to know

I have a few nails left, but maybe no more after this little test.

Glen

Thanks for your concern Jake, the whole experience as not been pleasant. I am still suffering some pain but I look at things on the positive side: no broken bones or bleeding and I can still get some work done. I will also get a brand new car tomorrow. It will look like this:

http://www.box.net/shared/gans7zqucv

Wow, Bill. I had no idea - it is not off topic at all. I wish you a full recovery.

Glen

(And what was it that happened, exactly--who hit you? Or did I miss another post somewhere else that had details you may not want to go into again?)

It looks to me like GP's challenge, "which one is which" seemed to scare away all of those who had only something negative to say about the EBVT III. If the EBVT III is as bad as several of you have claimed (and all of you know who you are), then it should be perfectly evident to you which recording is which and a vivid description as to why. I actually don't expect any of those people to respond. If the EBVT III is as unacceptable as it has been described, then a difference in microphones or any other minor difference should not matter at all.

If the EBVT III doesn't work, it doesn't work. If the piano had been tuned in 1/4 comma meantone, it wouldn't work for all of today's music. So, go ahead, all of you who said the EBVT III wouldn't, shouldn't and couldn't work because it is uneven, unbalanced, inappropriate, like a piano that had not been tuned in many years, one that someone would be calling you to do something about, made you cringe, made the piano professor wince and frown, made your skin crawl, gave you a headache, made you vomit, made you tear your hair out, caused you to write a letter to the PTG Home Office to demand that I be kicked out of PTG for "going around doing this and imposing some kind of unethical experiment on an unwitting public", all of you who came up with any such condemnations, go ahead and prove that you actually knew what you were talking about. I double dare you to do it and come out being 100% correct. It won't happen because I never believed a word of what any of you said and I know that you cannot back up what you have said. You can't really tell, can you?

We'll wait a few days for all of you to actually prove that you can reliably tell the difference and describe what it is about the EBVT III that offends you as compared to ET. I don't expect any of you to actually respond because I know already that the challenge is beyond your perception, even as a dedicated and life long piano technician. You are not sure. You couldn't risk being made the fool because you guessed incorrectly, so you abstain.

That shall therefore be your reason to further abstain from and negative comments in this thread. We who are enjoying the pursuit of what we believe to be state of the art innovation in tuning concepts do not need to read comments from people who have already dismissed any such ideas purely on pre-conceived notions or beliefs.

To those who have been seeking perfection in modern piano tuning merely by manipulating the amount of stretch in the octaves but still insisting on ET only, may I suggest that you have been "looking for love in all the wrong places".

The idea that tuning theory reached its pinnacle with ET was popular in the late 20th Century. ET was the ultimate. The more perfected it could be, the better the music would be. At the same time people were espousing that view, others were saying, "I don't think so". I was among them.

So, now in 2010, the May issue of the PTG Journal has two important and pages-long articles that say essentially that we have not yet found any ultimate solution at all. We haven't found the ultimate design for a piano and we haven't found the ultimate tuning for the piano.

If you want a real challenge, it will not be how to stretch so much or not stretch so much ET but how you can give each key signature its own definition and character yet still have the piano be able to perform all music the way that only ET is thought of as able to do. I have done that with the EBVT III. Can you do better? If you can, I will be tuning your temperament and octave stretching style on the pianos I service as soon as you can write it out.

To all...please take a brief respite in the rigors of this temperament test, and take a listen to this piece in EBVT III. It's not done that often. In EBVT III, it has a magical quality to it. At the very end are several arpeggios that sound beautiful in this temperament...in fact, the whole piece is quite beautiful in EBVT III! I don't have it in ET.

Ampico roll "Music of the Spheres" from "Winterreigen" Opus 13, composed by Ernst von Dohnanyi in 1905, played by E.V.Dohnanyi on the Ampico roll system. http://www.box.net/shared/b5fvvv7tbn

Let's go with a forensic explanation. I love the X-box file way to share files that GP introduced me to. I will share with you all the file from the official sheriff's office report:

http://www.box.net/shared/0k2d0piszi

I was turning left into a client's driveway in a rural area on a curved road. The driver behind me had been looking at his cellphone for signal strength and was therefore distracted. [The entire reason behind there are new "texting while driving" laws now being considered in many states.] He did not see until too late that my car had slowed to make a left turn. He hit me at full speed. He could have been switching radio stations. He could have been reaching for his sandwich or cup of coffee. He could have simply been admiring the beauty of the beautiful Wisconsin Spring at this time of year.

I am not angry at that driver. I understand why and how it happened. He was kind, helpful and remorseful after the accident. Unexpected incidents do happen. I could have easily been the one who caused the accident although I am an extremely defensive driver. I can't say how many very serious accidents I have avoided due to a practice and policy of defensive driving.

Off topic but relevant.

So glad you're OK Bill. Amazing how quickly things can happen.

Now for the test; and it's a good one. I'm going to stick my neck out by saying which one I like the best and lable that as EBVT III.


Il Postino:

#1 EBVT III
#2 ET

Out of Africa:

#1 EBVT III
#2 ET


The Out of Africa I though was much tougher.

Wow, Bill, you've certainly thrown down the gauntlet at your critics!

Nothing wrong with that, but by the same token, given your - umm - somewhat strong words, I think it would only be fair if you stick out your neck and do the blind test yourself.

Can't expect to draw your critics out but not do the test yourself... Why not make a start? Now that would be a gauntlet for sure.

Thanks Mark but I would have an unfair advantage and besides, I already know the answers. No criticism anyone ever wrote persuaded me to not tune in the EBVT III which is the way I tune almost every piano. I occasionally tune in Marpurg or 1/7 Comma Meantone but NEVER in ET. I make the choices I do because they result in a better sounding, more musically pleasing piano than any version of ET ever could. The number of people who have come to understand this to be true is growing and gaining momentum. I predict the the end result will be that ET will end up having been a fad that lasted about 100 years.

I did not listen very long to the test recordings, and there was a post where there were two and then there was 1, I think the jazz, and that was much harder to tell.

However, on the post that included the two selections, my immediate reaction was that the first example of each was EBVT III. I did not post my reaction right away, but it seems to agree with what others have guessed.

Thanks,

Nick

The rest of the 10's of thousands or piano tuners out there continue doing what they are doing because it is the accepted norm for almost a hundred years now. A "fad" is something that gains popularity for a brief, short time, by definition.

Even if all your clients were happy and could even tell the difference, the sum of you all represents less than a 1000th of a percent of all the pianos out there being regularly tuned differently. Smoke, mirrors, puffery and all the self praise in the world you can muster will hardly challenge or persevere against what is accepted by most everyone else out there (accepted for their own valid reasons). There have been countless others before you who have also made the same claims and faded into obscurity...not one has gained a foothold in the mainstream of music. As the famous saying goes...your a long, long way from Kansas, Dorthy.