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#1433436 - 05/10/10 08:16 AM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: Elissa Milne]
landorrano Offline
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Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2472
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
It depends which age of student we are talking about, landorrano. Young students (6 years and under) would be fine with that approach, but kids aged say 10 and over - forget it!! Of course, there are always exceptions to every rule, but seriously, in cultures where public singing just isn't done it's pretty hard to get a child to take singing seriously.....unless they already feel confident as singers...


Saying "cultures ..." and then " ... where public singing just isn't done " is a contradiction, isn't it?

Anyways, all these kids of pioneers, born on wagon trains and raised by coyotes, fighting off the injuns, they may be kind of stiff at their piano lesson but then they sure do like doing air guitar and screetching electronic effects.

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#1433451 - 05/10/10 08:53 AM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: landorrano]
Elissa Milne Offline
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Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
It depends which age of student we are talking about, landorrano. Young students (6 years and under) would be fine with that approach, but kids aged say 10 and over - forget it!! Of course, there are always exceptions to every rule, but seriously, in cultures where public singing just isn't done it's pretty hard to get a child to take singing seriously.....unless they already feel confident as singers...


Saying "cultures ..." and then " ... where public singing just isn't done " is a contradiction, isn't it?

Anyways, all these kids of pioneers, born on wagon trains and raised by coyotes, fighting off the injuns, they may be kind of stiff at their piano lesson but then they sure do like doing air guitar and screetching electronic effects.
Which country do you think I live in?
_________________________
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Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1433495 - 05/10/10 10:21 AM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: Elissa Milne]
keystring Offline
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Aren't all foreign countries the same? Australian coyote minus air guitar. Similar to the Canadian variety (ours yodels in bilingual solfege). Is especially responsive to rote training. (just too cute to resist)

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#1433827 - 05/10/10 06:29 PM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: Elissa Milne]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
Hmm, interesting question... I am not an *expert* in solfege, so I hesitate to make a comprehensive answer, but I suspect solfege might struggle with a scale such as C Dflat E Fsharp G A Bflat C??? Landorrano? Am I mistaking the possibilities of solfege?

I think that's a good example of where solfege does not work very well. Just yesterday I was looking through the Debussy preludes.

La terrasse des audiences du clair de lune, no. 7 from the second book, the first run there uses this set of notes, mostly descending:

D C# C B, Ab G Gb F, etc. I don't have score, and that spelling may be wrong. The key signature is 6 sharps, but because the pattern winds around, I remember that spelling being unusual. Regardless, such a pattern seems really easy to hear if we are not listening for something diatonic, but again I have no idea how solfege would get us there.
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#1434076 - 05/11/10 12:50 AM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: Gary D.]
Pogorelich. Offline
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But why would you use solfege for something like Debussy? Of course it wouldn't work. But it can work very well for simple beginner pieces in C, F or G, etc. Not for anything complicated.

The only reason I know solfege (and only fixed) is because I never learned the abc method as a kid. I only knew C as Do, and Bb as Si bemol, unil I was about 14.

You're right that you don't really "need" solfege, but it's not evil.. and it can be useful if you know how to use it. It doesn't REALLY matter that much how the kids are singing, as long as they do it at some point.
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#1434085 - 05/11/10 01:06 AM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: Pogorelich.]
currawong Offline
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Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich

The only reason I know solfege (and only fixed) is because I never learned the abc method as a kid. I only knew C as Do, and Bb as Si bemol, unil I was about 14.

You're right that you don't really "need" solfege, but it's not evil.. and it can be useful if you know how to use it. It doesn't REALLY matter that much how the kids are singing, as long as they do it at some point.
I basically agree with you, Angelina. Neither fixed nor movable solfa is a complete thing in itself. We all do some relative pitch training and some absolute pitch training, and as long as we don't try to simultaneously use the same syllables for two different purposes there should be no problem. In places where there is a tradition of movable do (like England and Australia), it just doesn't make sense to try to superimpose fixed do onto it. Similarly, it doesn't make sense to superimpose movable onto the French/etc system of fixed. We have to use different names for the different purposes.
In my opinion, anyway. smile
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#1434128 - 05/11/10 03:11 AM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: Elissa Milne]
landorrano Offline
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Posts: 2472
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
I suspect solfege might struggle with a scale such as C Dflat E Fsharp G A Bflat C???


Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Regardless, such a pattern seems really easy to hear if we are not listening for something diatonic, but again I have no idea how solfege would get us there.


Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich
But why would you use solfege for something like Debussy? Of course it wouldn't work. But it can work very well for simple beginner pieces in C, F or G, etc. Not for anything complicated.


I don't follow. What does that mean, that solfège "works" or "doesn't work".

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#1434132 - 05/11/10 03:21 AM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: Pogorelich.]
landorrano Offline
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Loc: France
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich

You're right that you don't really "need" solfege, but it's not evil.. and it can be useful if you know how to use it. It doesn't REALLY matter that much how the kids are singing, as long as they do it at some point.


What do you mean to say. That it doesn't matter if one sings "Sol si re sol" (fixed do) or "G B D G" or "Do mi sol do" (movable do) ?

I agree, if that is your point.

Is that your point?

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#1434138 - 05/11/10 03:38 AM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: landorrano]
Elissa Milne Offline
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Landorrano, how would you 'say' in solfege C Dflat E Fsharp G A Bflat C as a scale?
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#1434191 - 05/11/10 05:54 AM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: Elissa Milne]
landorrano Offline
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I still fail to see what problem you are trying to adresse. There may be something obvious to you that I simply am missing, like the pretty lady hidden in the optical illusion.

"Say in solfège"? You mean in the do-ré-mi nomenclature? If that is the question then the answer is evident, so I think that there is something else you are trying to answer.

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#1434202 - 05/11/10 06:12 AM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: landorrano]
Elissa Milne Offline
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The evident answer obviously eludes some of us, and I am the chief amongst those eluded by that answer.

I don't have a problem that I am trying to address at all - it's just that I (maybe entirely mistakenly) have believed that solfege is *MORE* than simply an alternative nomenclature. Even if it is *ONLY* an alternative nomenclature I have no idea (not being even remotely expert in this field) how you would 'say' C Dflat E Fsharp G A Bflat C in solfege.

Maybe the problem I am trying to address is a chronic lack of exposure to fixed-do solfege.
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#1434208 - 05/11/10 06:58 AM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: Elissa Milne]
ToriAnais Offline
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Posts: 244
Loc: Australia

Elissa, it would be do, ra, mi, fi, so, la, te, do.

The local music school that I get lots of transfers from ONLY teaches the note names as do re mi etc. So when they come to me and I refer to the note names as abcdefg they have no idea what I'm talking about. That really, really irks me. I think solfege should only be used in an aural/singing context. Also none of them can go "fa" and point to f, they have to count up from do, which is mighty annoying if I say a piece starts on ti. I try and get them to change asap over to abcdefg but it tends to take quite a while, and impacts not only playing but sightreading. Grrr....solfege...grumble grumble grumble...
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#1434210 - 05/11/10 07:17 AM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: ToriAnais]
Elissa Milne Offline
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So..... (no pun intended).... re is D, ra is D flat... ri would be D sharp, I take it?

What's the logic then? B = ti but Bflat = te - does this mean B double flat would be ta? And that Eflat would be me?

I *so* should have caught up on this, like, 20 years ago.....

And - back to my original question - this means that fixed do is simply an alternate nomenclature, rather than expressing any relational/functional values, yes?
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www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1434212 - 05/11/10 07:18 AM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: Elissa Milne]
Elissa Milne Offline
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And how annoying it must be for those raised with fixed do to listen to Do Re Mi in The Sound of Music, which is actually in B flat major......
_________________________
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www.elissamilne.wordpress.com

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#1434221 - 05/11/10 07:49 AM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: Elissa Milne]
keystring Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
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Quote:
this means that fixed do is simply an alternate nomenclature, rather than expressing any relational/functional values, yes?

In some parts of the world, fixed do is used, and when so, it is an alternative nomenclature. This is what Landorrano has learned, since the Latin-language countries use it. In bilingual Canada you hear both on the radio, and the RCM material is all bilingual, "Mozart A la Turca - A minor - La mineur".

Landorrano - how do you guys handle double flats?

MittsOff - what you are observing makes no sense. It sounds more as though these transfers were all taught in the same flawed manner. There are also people who count up from C to find F for the same reason. I know there are some "schools" (Yamaha?) that teach teachers to use solfege in some way. Could there be some common source for that confusion?

For "Fa" when the piece "starts on Ti", what are you asking? Are you asking for the note (fixed do) Fa? In that case, it shouldn't matter what it starts on. Fixed Do Fa is Fa is Fa. However, there is no Fa in Ti major: It's Fi since Ti major (B major) has an F#. Otoh, if it "starts on Ti" you haven't told me what kind of scale it is: major or minor.

If it "starts on Ti" (fixed) but you want movable do Fa, then you want the 4th degree note = Mi. Takes a second.

Movable Do assumes the traditional scales and their functions. Fixed Do doesn't.

Otoh, for alphabet names, what do you call a microtone that is a quarter tone between C and C# (Db)? There's a symbol for it, but what do you call it? wink


Edited by keystring (05/11/10 08:18 AM)
Edit Reason: who => what

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#1434227 - 05/11/10 08:00 AM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: Elissa Milne]
keystring Offline
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Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne
And how annoying it must be for those raised with fixed do to listen to Do Re Mi in The Sound of Music, which is actually in B flat major......

I LOVE the way that is presented in the Sound of Music! smile It came out when I was a teen. Granted, it's traditional scales. But it even teaches some harmony theory. At some refrain, the kids start singing "do mi mi - mi so so (V) - re fa fa - la ti ti (a seventh starting on vii? or Ti as a passing note?) while Mary sings more slowly so that you get:

do mi mi So - mi so so Do
re fa fa La - la ti ti Fa
do mi mi So - mi so so Do
re fa fa La - la ti ti Ti
ends in Do Re Do With kids extending the Ti..., and a quick Ti Do! illustrating the leading note.

The words go "When you know the notes to sing / You can sing most anything!"
I absorbed that at about 10 years old. It's fantastic (in tradtional terms). I could go to the piano and play the harmony and melody from memory. Moreover, I could do it in any key without having learned a single note name.

Here it is, around 4:22 - though I dare say these days it does seem to drag on some.

see around 4:22


Edited by keystring (05/11/10 08:09 AM)

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#1434240 - 05/11/10 08:22 AM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: ToriAnais]
landorrano Offline
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Originally Posted By: mitts_off

Elissa, it would be do, ra, mi, fi, so, la, te, do.


Hey wait a minute! That's your Queen's ursatz solfège, grafted on to her A-B-C nomenclature.

The notes of Elissa's scale are do, re bémol, mi, fa dièse, sol, la, si bémol, do. The scale would be sung "do ré mi fa sol la si do".

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#1434259 - 05/11/10 08:53 AM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: Elissa Milne]
landorrano Offline
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Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2472
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Elissa Milne


And - back to my original question - this means that fixed do is simply an alternate nomenclature, rather than expressing any relational/functional values, yes?


It seems to me that you are confounding two things. One thing is called solfège,the other is not.

One is the system of nomenclature. This is not solfège.

The other is the pedagogical exercise of reading out loud from a score the notes, using the voice to simultaneously pronounce the name of each note and produce the tone. This is solfège.

The first, one could say is simply an alternative nomenclature. Although that formulation ... an alternative nomenclature ... I find rather weak. There is certainly a sense in which they are simply two different nomenclatures for the same thing. But the nomenclature also shapes the way one conceives that which one is naming.

For me first of the seven notes is DO. In your system, which is the first note: is it C or is it A? The scale of C for you is C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C. For me it is DO-RÈ-MI-FA-SOL-LA-SI-DO. The circle of fifths begins with DO. The armature with its bémols and dièses (sharps and flats) is established from this starting point, and finishes there as well.


Edited by landorrano (05/11/10 08:54 AM)

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#1434269 - 05/11/10 09:18 AM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: landorrano]
keystring Offline
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I think by now I have learned about 3 ways of doing this, including singingA,B,C while being aware of the degrees/functions. That would go in the direction of what you have learned, Landorrano. I'm also beginning to see weaknesses in the movable do system, even though I have derived a lot of benefits from it.

Quote:
For me first of the seven notes is DO. ... For me it is DO-RÈ-MI-FA-SOL-LA-SI-DO. The circle of fifths begins with DO.


This is to elucidate an earlier question:

There is a problem if the system is too different, which was alluded to earlier. Elissa's scale still has seven notes. What if there is a different number of notes? For example, the Pentatonic scale has 5 notes. My mind simply wants to call them So La Do Re Mi and I sense it as a traditional scale with some notes left out. This still works.

But the octatonic scale has 8 notes and sometimes it is used in a way that avoids having any kind of Tonic. There is no Do, no "starting note". What shall we call the 8th note. Meanwhile the whole tone scale has only 6 notes, and it can also be used in atonal music (no Tonic). This is is Debussy's music, alluded to the other day. What do we call those 6 notes? If there is no Tonic, which is Do? Is there a circle of fifths in that music? For one thing, there is no perfect fifth.



Edited by keystring (05/11/10 09:19 AM)

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#1434312 - 05/11/10 10:11 AM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: landorrano]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich

You're right that you don't really "need" solfege, but it's not evil.. and it can be useful if you know how to use it. It doesn't REALLY matter that much how the kids are singing, as long as they do it at some point.


What do you mean to say. That it doesn't matter if one sings "Sol si re sol" (fixed do) or "G B D G" or "Do mi sol do" (movable do) ?

I agree, if that is your point.

Is that your point?


Yes.
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#1434315 - 05/11/10 10:13 AM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: landorrano]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Originally Posted By: landorrano

I don't follow. What does that mean, that solfège "works" or "doesn't work".


It's a way of saying wether something is a good method or isn't. For instance, it will be way too complicated to sing solfege with something like Debussy. Possible, but hard.
_________________________

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#1434436 - 05/11/10 01:33 PM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: Pogorelich.]
landorrano Offline
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I'm sorry, I still don't get the point, but it doesn't really matter.

There are obviously many things which cannot be "solfed", and you don't have to wait until Debussy to encounter them. Just take "Tartine au beurre" which has no new scales or tonal structure and try solfing those glissandos and those jumps.

In any case, solfège is a pedagogique methodology, the objective of which is not singing but reading. Reading as we read literature, with a cognition of the score that is not necessarily linked to playing a particular instrument.

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#1434521 - 05/11/10 03:31 PM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: landorrano]
keystring Offline
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Quote:
Reading as we read literature, with a cognition of the score that is not necessarily linked to playing a particular instrument.

There is more than one way of approaching this, and probably more than one way is needed. Imagine a piece that consists of harmonies & disharmonies with no melodic line, for example. I do generally read music like one reads words, hearing it. But for some kinds of piano music that doesn't work.

Quote:
Just take "Tartine au beurre" which has no new scales or tonal structure and try solfing those glissandos and those jumps.

A glissando has a beginning and an end, which is the interval. Tartine de beurre [Mozart]

Listening to it:
The first glissandos each go up a full octave from Do to Do, Re to Re, Mi to Mi, with the phrase ending on Fa. This can, in fact, be solfed. Additionally, this has a melody (is singable) which is built along a standard major scale.

The Debussy uses a whole tone scale, consisting of 6 notes within the octave, instead of 7. That is the first problem. You also end up with no Dominant, and no circle of fifths. There is no perfect fifth anywhere from any note to any other note. That is part of the impossibility.


Edited by keystring (05/11/10 03:33 PM)
Edit Reason: shortened

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#1434540 - 05/11/10 03:56 PM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: keystring]
keystring Offline
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Elissa - having stumbled on this - isn't there a pure physicality to this such as you mentioned? "rote" or not, in pure motion?
A different Tartine (Butterbrot)

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#1434590 - 05/11/10 05:00 PM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: Pogorelich.]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich
But why would you use solfege for something like Debussy? Of course it wouldn't work. But it can work very well for simple beginner pieces in C, F or G, etc. Not for anything complicated.

My point is that a system that ONLY is practical for music that is mainly major and minor scales, or modes was useless to me because it had built-in limitations that I can't live with.
Quote:

The only reason I know solfege (and only fixed) is because I never learned the abc method as a kid. I only knew C as Do, and Bb as Si bemol, unil I was about 14.

That's not what I think of as solfege. To me, that is just another way of naming of notes. For instance, B=Si and flat=bemol.

My questions are about the usefulness of *moveable do*, which is quite a different matter.
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#1434617 - 05/11/10 05:28 PM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: Gary D.]
landorrano Offline
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By the way, solfège exercise is best done standing, and beating out the measure with the right hand.

In any case, getting back to the question at hand, the famous "rote-teaching", what NWL describes here ...

Originally Posted By: NWL


By rote, I mean by ear--we talk about steps and skips, up and down. We memorize. I do NOT mean that the student plays without understanding--to the contrary, we identify patterns and sequences when learning by ear that might escape notice when playing from the page.


is effectively a solfège exercise.

Are you still there, NWL, or have you flown the coop? Are you saying the note names and singing the tones ? Or just doing scat?

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#1434646 - 05/11/10 05:53 PM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: landorrano]
Elissa Milne Offline
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 1337
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Landorrano, could you say that solfege is effectively an exercise in rote learning then?
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
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#1434937 - 05/12/10 03:21 AM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: Elissa Milne]
landorrano Offline
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Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2472
Loc: France
Well, I'm still baffled by this term "rote learning".

The axis of solfège is reading.

Solfège is the study of the elements permitting to read, write, play or sing a musical score. It is to be distinguished from the learning of an instrument or of singing.

While it is evident that the study of an instrument in the context of written music involves many elements of solfège, all the more so in countries where teaching is done privately and individually, solfège is not the same as the study of an instrument.

The archtypical solfège exercise is singing the names of notes from a score, while standing and beating out the measure with the right hand. This is part of solfège, but solfège is not limited to these exercises.

There are many types of exercises: reading out loud the names of the notes without singing them; beating rhythms from a score; visual recognition of intervals; aural recognition of intervals; rhythmic dictations; tonal dictations; rhythmic and tonal dictations; written transposition; aural transposition. In group solfège classes: singing (solfing) polyphonic voices; singing in canon, beating out polyrhythms or rhythms in canon. And so on, and so on.

The point is to form musically literacy; the ultimate objective of solfège is to be able to hear a written musical work without other support than, shall I say, one's mind's ear.

This "rote learning" then, is, insofar as it is a ruse aimed at learning reading, certainly in the spirit of solfège. But to say that solfège is "rote learning" is false because solfège is not limited to the sort of exercises that you are speaking as "rote learning".

That said, I can't swallow this term "rote learning".


Edited by landorrano (05/12/10 06:31 AM)

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#1434948 - 05/12/10 03:51 AM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: landorrano]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2472
Loc: France
In the book of solfège exercises "Solfège des Solfèges" by Danhauser, Lavignac and Lemoine, level 1B, the table of contents of exercises:

Do major
4/4 = C: Whole notes and rests
Half notes and rests
Whole notes and half notes
Quarter notes and rests
Whole notes and quarter notes
Half notes and quarter notes
Whole notes, half notes and quarter notes
EIghth notes and rests
Whole notes and eighth notes
Quarter notes and eighth notes
Whole notes, half notes, quarter notes and eighth notes
3/4
2/2 = C\
2/4
Dotted half notes and dotted quarter notes
Sixteenth notes
3/8
6/8
The triplet
The syncope
Sharp
Flat
A minor
G major
E minor
F major
D minor
D major
B minor
B-flat major
G minor
F-clef

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#1435838 - 05/13/10 02:42 PM Re: How much rote-teaching do you do? [Re: landorrano]
Smallpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/14/10
Posts: 270
Loc: California
Quote:
[/quote]A minor
G major
E minor
F major
D minor
D major
B minor
B-flat major
G minor
F-clef[quote]


shouldn't this be translate as
la minor
sol major
etc....

in Solfege book?


Edited by small piano (05/13/10 02:44 PM)
_________________________
English is my 4th languages, please excuse my grammar. Thanks

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