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That is so sad.

Anyway I had a bash at Nefertiti, that is one tricky tune. Its a bit of a first take job so there is quite a lot of room for improvement, especially on the changes!

http://www.divshare.com/download/10810750-7f2

And something quite different, a blues. I was trying to not play the changes on this one which is actually harder somehow,

http://www.divshare.com/download/10810896-33a

That is really, really sad!

But hey, maybe you could phone up Keith, explain the situation, and ask if you could go to his house and hear him noodle around for awhile. I'm sure he'll be accommodating.

A few comments: Very cool arrangement. I love some of your voicings, and really love some of the solo ideas too.

This is great to hear different people's interpretations of how to tackle this piece.

Anyone try the idea of transposing the melody up and keeping the melody the same yet?

And beeboss, what type of recording device and piano are you using? Great, great sound just on my computer speakers!

I haven't listened yet -- but I just wanted to say that I'm glad everyone is back from various vacations. Although I wasn't on vacation, I was way too busy, and that caused me to forget the Concert(:( ).

If any of you know Keith personally, then perhaps you can ask if he can spare me a ticket...(he already got my money). The sad part is that I'll have to fly somewhere to see him in the near future.

I'm really making headway on Nef but just have to make sure I'm not missing the form. I'm really enjoying practicing this. However, it is frustrating because I'm not that good at slow swing. If you don't play this thing slow, each tonality only lasts a bar so it is like playing Giant Steps...

You really challenged us Tom!

Beeboss, that sounded great! I loved that. It's a true solo piano style and gives some great ideas (and the first solo piano style I've ever heard on this tune). You made it sound so full. By the way your recording sounds like a concert hall. New piano right? (What is your piano?)

And those Chick/Hancock strumming of the strings was really neat. Gave me a smile.

I've wanted to play this more like solo piano rather than swing (because I will likely play this alone most of the time), and I couldn't easily figure out how. Now you were quite creative here so I'm not sure I can copy your LH moves. But what I heard was that you just gave a hint of a beat while letting it flow.

You guys are way too advanced so I can't quite do this as fast.

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Thanks guys for all your kind comments.

As there seems to be interest in my setup I will just describe it briefly for you.
I have just got a new grand, a 30 yr old yamaha C5. It is wonderful, especially in comparison with the other crap pianos i have owned.3 pedals as well which i am loving.

For recording i have a motu ultralight interface and i record onto an imac in logic. I have one quality mic (akg 414) and 2 cheap and cheerful C3000. I am surprised by the quality of these, I bought them on ebay for less than $100 each. Actually nefertiti was done with only these cheap mics as my 414 was lent to a friend. I am also quite impressed with the recorded sound and only wish i had more space so i could get a bass and drums in my room.

Dave - I would really be surprised if there was ANY audible difference recording into mac/logic rather than a hard disc recorder. Having previously spent a few years training as a sound man I know that the ear can be easily fooled by comparison tests and it can be pretty easy to convince yourself that something is wrong and needs improving when all that is really required is moving a mic a few inches or repositioning the piano. I don't have particularly fantastic ears for studio work but I would definitely have to listen pretty loud on some very good speakers to even hear any difference between my $600 414 and one of the cheap $100 C3000s. If you have logic already you may as well give it a go though. It really is an amazing program, and very easy to use.

Fine, fine work beboss!

Glen

Dave,
I'm listening right now to Nefertiti. OMG! Very very high concept, and you actually made it a piano piece! You took a piece that is already far out, and you took it even further out. Great choices. The recording sounds professional.

Isn't this a neat thread or what? Great stuff here all around. It's hard to compete with you guys as I cannot do it in such a professional form without mistakes. But maybe I can do a rough version this weekend (be easy on me). Like I said, this is actually very tough for me.

Just from listening to different versions here, I've been torn among different choices of tempo, swing/non-swing, rubato/strict time, faster/slower, 4/4-6/8. Unfortunately until I started hearing from all of you, I really didn't know what it could sound like.

Other tunes, like a complex-Dolphin Dance, at least has a "reference". I can see though that from the range available with 7notemode's version and Beeboss, one could jam on this all day using different styles.

...as tears well up in his eyes he bravely points out that he too recorded a version of Nef...and in fact was the first to suggest doing it, and then recorded it, warts and all...but all to be forgotten with the likes of 7 and Beeboss stealing his thunder...sniff...oh well, his mom still loves him (well, probably).

So, just to bring this back to the original intention I had:

I'm more curious about some of the processes that went on during the learning/playing of this piece from bee and 7 now. For my ears it seems the Beeboss didn't really take it further out, but rather back in using certain angular modal sounds in many places. I'm also curious about the opening strummed chords. Again, I didn't have a real chance to analyze it, but was wondering if you actually went through all the changes in the tune, and if so, I'd be interested in how you played them with one hand. It seemed they were mostly triads? Upper structures? I'll have to listen again.

And for 7: Are you finished with the tune now? You mentioned back on Feb 20th or so that you like to play lots of tunes, not worrying about perfection, etc. So does that mean that Nef is shelved for another tune or tunes now? I ask because I've found myself now a bit obsessed with really, really learning this tune, and have found it helpful listening to your and bees version and some of the various insights about swing etc.

So, people, what is up with the tune? Anyone care to repost an update? I promised to awhile back, and will, but my recording opportunities are a bit sparce when the family is around.

I'd also like to hear etcetra and Wiz and Knotty and Inlanding's and any lurker's versions too. Jazzwee, you said this weekend, right?

Hi Sceptical,
You are quite right that i didn't take it further out. Those chords are quite out there already and it was the most i could do just to make the changes. I can't remember exactly what i played but any one handed voicings were probably just the standard ones, mainly 4 note voicings I expect. I used the real book changes without listening to the original version.
I do know the original quite well anyway but i didn't go through it working out Herbies voiciings or anything. It is truly a groundbreaking recording i think, where the rhythm section does the improvisation and the soloists just play through the tune. I have read that the recording was in fact just a rehearsal with the band trying out the tune which is why they played it like that and that the conception wasn't really a deliberate thing, but i don't know how true that is. The idea that the classic recording is just a first play through is a bit frightening.
The strumming bit at the beginning is just something i am having fun with now i have a grand piano with 3 pedals. That opens up a load of great possibilities for me. The chords I just extracted from the tune, the Ab maj, B maj maybe Db maj more or less. I just love intros and outros, its great to have a bit of freedom from the tyranny of the proper changes.

Scep, I never forgot you, you were first to get your day in the sun You get the first medal and you were the original inspiration.

BTW - as a solo piano concept, I couldn't grasp the idea of the Rhythm section improvising by comping while the soloists played the melody. I couldn't apply it to the piano. Beeboss, created a new and similar concept there by playing the melody as a bass line while comping on top.

Contrasting approaches though, 7Notemode created a more melodic approach while Beeboss was playing more scalar and vertical.

Beeboss, question for you: how much pedal where you using with that? It's difficult to play this with a pedal throughout but you managed to really keep the full resonance going the whole time. Can you explain what you were doing? BTW - I don't have a Sostenuto on my digital or my Steinway.

Well, I thought I was through :-)
I think BB's version is a superior concept because it takes it much further away from the original and to a new sound. When I recorded it, I was thinking be subtractive and make it more 2-5-1 oriented for a more traditional sound and do it in time, more like an exercise. I also did GBPPH at the same time. I'm out of town and haven't had a chance to post it, so I guess I have moved on :-)

Ok, BB, I'm going to call you and 7 on something: Both of you used changes from the book (or a book) that 'dummied down' the actual chords, and made it easier to navigate in a way. The Ab chord you mentioned doesn't actually exist, and neither does the B maj.

Now, don't get me wrong, I thought your take on it was great, and so was 7's BUT I don't think it was 'authentic' or perhaps accurate. To be specific, the Ab chord should not have an Eb as a chord tone, and the B maj should not have an F# in it. I think this is what is going to make the changes either harder or easier to do based upon the understanding of the odd nature of the I chords (Ab and B). Because from what I heard on the original recording, and then confirmed from the link Wiz provided, the I chords are somewhat like other tunes from the period (Blue in Green comes to mind, as does Little B's poem from a little later I think). All three of these tunes treat the opening chord with either the melody being the #11, or the harmony having the #11.


But none of this may matter to anyone. In the very recent past (within two years) I had the idea that what matters most is what I have to say in a tune, rather than what the tune itself has to say--meaning that if I sound good, no matter what it SHOULD sound like, then fine, I'm done with learning the tune. BUT, if I sound good because I neglected to play the changes that are there, or altered the melody (a la 7) to suit my changes, then I'm wondering what that now means. Am I cheating when I do that?

Back in context--I've only just recently been 'hung up' on authenticity, and am still unsure about how important it is. I'm interested in others' thoughts about this.

Scep, I hear you on those changes. Maybe that's why it's so difficult to hear the harmony sometimes because I myself am trying to be strict with the applicable chord tones.

Although - unlike you I use 'A' on the G-7b5 and not Ab. I use Ab on the C7Alt. Well I do use Ab as a passing tone on occasion.

I just played a little bit this morning and there's a part of the progression that I keep messing up (Amaj7#11 Eb7(b9)#11 EMaj7). It goes through 3 tonalities so quickly here.

Well strictly speaking, if I may, you're probably screwing up there because that chord Amaj7#11 doesn't exist in the original. It's over a Bb which changes it's tonality and direction. And as for the A Ab thing, I'm going to let that lie because I'm not sure I can convince you (or anyone else for that matter) that the Gm7b5 is not what you think it is.


And, this might please you: I'm really looking at the ii7b5 in other contexts and seeing where I can put the 9 in, and am liking the sound. I can see how subs from that chord can now lead to other extensions allowing me to play even more modern sounds.

Levine and others are wrong though in that the m7b5 chord cannot and should not always have a b9 in there. There are so many examples of where the b9 definitely is needed, and other times where the 9 is more appropriate.

Sceptical, my view is that you are analysing this stuff way too much. Maybe I played an Eb in the Abmajb5 chord and maybe not, or maybe sometimes, I don't know. I am just listening to the original now and I have no idea if herbie is using the Eb in his chord voicings of that chord. I have a feeling that he probably is at times. But the I have changes are from the real book so they are probably wrong, maybe in Waynes original part he had written sharp 11 chords, who knows? Even if it did say b5 in the original that wouldn't mean you can't put an Eb in the chord. You can add any extensions you fancy.

In fact now I look into it a little it turns out that there is no copy of waynes original part around and wayne often wrote tunes without chord symbols. Herbie's version of the chords and some chat about them is here...

http://thebadplus.typepad.com/dothemath/2006/02/nefertiti_chord.html


Really it is up to the player what changes and sounds they use, and this is basically a jazz approach. How boring would it be if we were stuck trying to be faithful to the original version? So basically I don't feel I have to stick to the changes at all, or the melody or the rhythm, or the original conception. In fact it is essential to change some stuff to make it your own. But it is usually nice to keep something of the original in there. Of course that is just my view.

I agree BB. Skep, I have been called out many times for changing the chords too much and for changing the melody, which is a big no no for some people. And.. yet...I...keep....doing....it...:-) I tend to react against the written chords and sometimes against the melody, sometimes just going back to the melody enough to give an impression of the the original tune. I caught some flack for this stella for that reason: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFu286OQLkY Oh well.

I think there is a difference between transcribing something exactly for learning purposes and then playing it in your own way. I didn't want to do a transcription of this piece.

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