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#1429261 - 05/03/10 10:06 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Beeboss, as you are finding, it does imply a dual analysis. If the chord tones are obvious, no analysis is necessary. If it doesn't make sense then you start looking at the downbeat notes and see what is being implied. So the downbeats are used to establish what chord is being played in the solo. Not the other way around.

The neat thing about this is that it's quite a vocabulary builder in a generic way. And in some ways it is easier to visualize than thinking of the scale (especially altered types of scales). It goes back to Scep's discussion of triads.

In Matrix one sees what Chick does on Dominants (lots of minor triads overlayed in the harmony). Again, I'm making this a presumption based on what he puts on a downbeat (assuming it is not displaced rhythmically, or dragged).

Mike A - Just to be clear again -- it's not a matter of favoring it. I was taught this specifically and its application defined for me. I attempt to put into practice and obviously it doesn't come easy.

Wiz - in answer to your question, while practicing, I'm extremely conscious of the chord tones, scales and beats. In practice, my ear defines it for me. I haven't heard you play regular tunes with a fixed beat at medium tempo so you can get away with a lot of stuff in a ballad that you can't with an established rhythm. Try Very Early and you'll see what I mean. You really have to know where you are at all times.
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#1429271 - 05/03/10 10:18 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Originally Posted By: beeboss
Originally Posted By: jazzwee


It is in fact a B Maj Pentatonic (more likely an F# pentatonic though). And of course when he's using C Diminished WT, the chord tones apply to that chord.



The pentatonic in bars 14-15 is definitely B maj pentatonic, and F# pentatonic wouldn't have the B in it. B maj pentatonic makes sense if you regard those bars as F7#5#9 with a dim WT scale choice. But then again F# pentatonic also has its justifications. If he were playing an Db maj arpeggio we could doubtless come up with some kind of rational for that. Whatever possible combinations of notes he chooses to play you can regard them all as chord tones because we don't know what chord extensions and substitutions he is imagining.
So, just taking an F7 chord, at some point in the solo Chick plays every note on either beat 1 or 3 against the F7 chord with the exception of an E. Any note goes (except for E)


Now your analysis here is pretty good Beeboss. The same kind of stuff I went through. But regardless of which harmony is correct (since there can be more than one answer sometimes, especially if there are fewer notes), you would still be able to duplicate it right? Not as a lick but as a conceptual line.

THIS is how I was told to develop a vocabulary. Analyze the line according to the rhythmic importance and harmonic placement.

In the case of Chick, it could be as simple now as saying that you would play a B Pentatonic over F7, and I might also note he'd play it with some quartal pattern.

Now if I follow Mike A's advice and just choose beat 1 and 3, I wouldn't be able to make any sort of analysis. I hope you're seeing that I reversed the process here. Instead of saying, play your chord tones on the downbeats, I'm now saying LISTEN to the chord tones they play on downbeats. Subtle difference.

BTW - on Matrix if you listen to the recording, you will confirm Chick's harmonic choice with his comping on the LH (which I did).
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#1429273 - 05/03/10 10:19 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Nice transcription of Matrix. I have this somewhere but this copy looks cleaner.
Some good lines for transposition. Thanks for posting that.

That's a classic cut from a great trio--Miroslav & Roy Haynes.
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#1429279 - 05/03/10 10:23 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Dave Ferris]
jazzwee Offline
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Change of topic for a moment, if someone can help me.

Often mentioned here is playing with the metronome on 2 and 4.

But when I'm playing at 220bpm for example, this sounds too crazy and tense to me. I'd think in half time with the metronome at 1 and 3 which is relaxing. What do you guys do uptempo with a metronome?

I think this 2 and 4 thing is useful only at medium swing and to develop one's swing.
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#1429330 - 05/04/10 12:20 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Mike A Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mike A
The advice that jw seems to favor to is place a chord tone on every beat of a 4/4 measure, 1, 2, 3 and 4, which he refers to as the downbeats. For eighth-note lines, this would imply that at least every other note would be a chord tone.

The far more common advice is to place chord tones on strong beats, meaning, in 4/4, the harmonic strong beats of 1 and 3. This advice can be found in countless books, websites, instructional videos, etc. Of course, it is also offered with countless exceptions, including anticipations, displacements, ninths as honorary chord tones, etc., etc.


Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Mike A - Just to be clear again -- it's not a matter of favoring it. I was taught this specifically and its application defined for me. I attempt to put into practice and obviously it doesn't come easy.


Okay, well, what's your opinion?

To me it seems needlessly restrictive. Every other eighth note, at least, should be a chord tone? Among other things, that would rule out many of the common enclosures and chromatic targeting techniques that are used all the time to approach chord tones.

I wonder how many recorded solos out there are constructed around chord tones on every single beat, 1, 2, 3 & 4. I don't know; maybe I'd be surprised.

To me the conventional advice of chord tones on harmonic strong beats, 1 & 3, seems much more sensible. But as Dave says, I wonder how many recorded solos follow even that rule of thumb.

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#1429354 - 05/04/10 01:51 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Mike A]
jazzwee Offline
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Mike A, my opinion is of little importance as I am no Jazz master. However, if one buys this analysis, it is eminently useful since I can listen to a Jarrett solo and have some foundation of what he's using to construct his melodies, particularly when players like him start to overlay a different harmony.

Whether you apply it for two beats or 4 (or 8 -- like Evans), is your choice. But if it is enough to outline the harmony, it will sound good and our ears will hear it.

You have to understand what I'm saying here though. If your intended chord shape is clear in your head (whatever it is), I don't find any limitation whatsoever. No one, not Galper or my teacher, ever said you couldn't substitute ANY chord that makes sense to you. The idea here is intent. If you just mean it, then you will always have at least 4 beats handled. No one sets a limit to diatonic chord shapes. If a Min7(#5) is the harmony you imply on the downbeats. That will be heard. Right or wrong. It basically amounts to anticipating what you're going to play and doing it intentionally.

So the way I understand it right now, I can't find anything wrong with the logic. Obviously, the masters have a better chance of executing what they intend better than the rest of us.

But don't be stuck on 1/3/5/7 of the original chord. That's not what it means, though that is how it is learned.
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#1429402 - 05/04/10 06:27 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee


Now your analysis here is pretty good Beeboss. The same kind of stuff I went through. But regardless of which harmony is correct (since there can be more than one answer sometimes, especially if there are fewer notes), you would still be able to duplicate it right? Not as a lick but as a conceptual line.



It is a different kind of analysis though. It is a fact that Chick is playing a B major pentatonic at that point and it is a fact that all those notes can be found in an F dim wt scale. It does not specify anything about on which beats those notes should be played. It is purely descriptive and not imply any method as to what should be done. And more importantly it does not require any kind of assumption about the thought processes that are going on in Chick's mind, about what imaginary substitutions he is considering. He is playing B maj pentatonic - he may or may not be imagining F7alt or F#min7, or more likely something completely different.

Unfortunately we don't know what Chick was thinking as we only have to go on what notes he actually played. As you can justify any note with an imaginary substitution the whole process doesn't help much with note choice. What you are left with is the fact that Chick plays any note (except the E) against the F7.
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#1429445 - 05/04/10 09:08 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
beeboss Offline
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Just for me to put this matter to rest in my own head I tried a bit of more in depth analysis, of Jarretts solo on If I should lose you, just the first chorus.
I figured that the first chorus would be closer to the sequence than the later ones and would use more chord tones.

my transcription is here...
http://www.divshare.com/download/11266117-080


First I looked at chord tones on beats 1 and 3. For the sake of completeness I included the 9th and 13th,so for the purposes of this test I defined chord tones as the 1 3 5 7 9 and 13th of the chord.
And I discovered that 80% of the notes on beats 1 and 3 are chord tones.
This seems like a lot, especially as if the notes were entirely random there should be around 50% chord tones.
Then I looked at beats 2 and 4 and found the result to be virtually the same - 85% chord tones.

So I am quite convinced that Jarrett uses mainly chord tones on the downbeats.

EXCEPT ... then I looked at the upbeats. And what I found is that 83% of upbeat notes are also chord tones.

So, there is NO difference in the percentage of chord tones played on downbeats and upbeats in the first chorus of this solo, no distinction whatsoever between the downbeat and upbeat.

And then I considered what the result would be if one randomly played the first scale choice over a given chord. And this is where it got interesting....
Imagine improvising over a C maj 7 chord by just playing random notes from the C major scale. 6 notes of the 7 are chord tones (from my definition above) so that would result in 85% of played notes being chord tones, which by a coincidence is almost exactly the same proportion that Jarrett is actaully using.

Now it seems pretty obvious that playing random notes from the scale does not constitute outlining the chord changes, but it does result in exactly the same proportion of chord tones on the downbeats as a really amazing solo by Jarrett. This suggests to me that chord tones on the downbeat is not a very good way of looking at things.
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#1429515 - 05/04/10 11:40 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Beeboss, perhaps this cannot be proven or disproven because we look at this with different colored glasses.

To me this is a useful tool in duplicating what a player is doing by looking at the tones not as random choices in the chord/scale but as moving harmony. So rather than looking at proving whether or not it is a downbeat tone, I'm just assuming that if they played it on the downbeat, then it is what it is.

I'll lay out a theoretical example here of how I look at it and then I will return to our regularly scheduled programming (some other topic)...

Let's say that we have two bars as follows:
| Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 |

Now player Keith Evans, plays a line using Dm tones on the first bar and then plays a line using Cmaj7 tones on the second bar. And let's assume here that he emphasized these tones by playing them on the downbeat. You can assume some passing tones in between.

Under casual analysis, you will say, "Hey Keith Evans played 9/11/13 on Cmaj7 on downbeats so he's not following the Downbeat rule. This rule sucks smile I better dump this stupid Hal Galper book".

Under the analysis I was taught to do, I would instead say, "Hmmmm, Keith Evans played a Dm against the CMaj7. Interesting. But looks like he resolved it back to Cmaj7 on the next bar. I think I can copy that."

I don't try to impose my own rule on what Keith Evans is playing. I'm just observing his structure and at some point I might apply the same approach of playing against the original Cmaj7 for a bar and then resolving to it.

Now there has to be faith here that player Keith Evans is some good player and makes good choices. Thus if I believe that, following this same line should sound good for me too. So if I have | EbMaj7 | EbMaj7 |, I might play Fm against the first bar so sound like him in some other tune.

BTW - this whole approach fails completely if you don't have faith in whoever you're listening to. smile I have a lot faith so it works for me.

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#1429571 - 05/04/10 02:18 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Wizard of Oz Offline
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beeboss, have you played So Tender lately? I was playing the transcription you did and the chords do follow a 2-5-1 progression. The melody takes a few turns and goes through about 4 keys.

Plus he uses certain dominant 7 chords as a transition, most notably the #5 for a key. So, in A maj, he'll use that F7, what he talked about in the interview.

It adds that twist in the harmony where it's something you don't expect to hear, but sounds cool.


I want to ask, do you guys know the 2-5-1 for left hand chords so well that it's easy to modulate to many different keys without thinking?

The melody I can do, but remembering the harmony on the fly is what gets me. I need to sit and work out the tune beforehand and really drill it in my mind.

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#1429600 - 05/04/10 03:19 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Wizard of Oz]
beeboss Offline
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Hi Wiz,
I have played it a fair bit. It's not that tricky when you get used to it although the harmony takes a while to sink in. It's a great tune but not one that I would ever want to do on a gig.
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#1429642 - 05/04/10 05:13 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Dave Ferris Offline
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.
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#1429682 - 05/04/10 06:13 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Dave Ferris]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
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I was practicing Giant steps a bit today, well mainly some Shostakovich but I got into giant steps when I couldn't handle any more serious concentration!
It's not one of those tunes that I would like to play live, too tricky by half, but its fun to jam for a laugh. For your amusement here it is ....

http://www.divshare.com/download/11270810-d89
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#1429683 - 05/04/10 06:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
beeboss Offline
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And Dave, good advice for those fast tempos.
I am obsessed by learning Charlie Parker heads at the moment so some speed exercises are a good idea for me.
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#1429684 - 05/04/10 06:16 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Dave Ferris]
jazzwee Offline
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Great Dave. 110 Half time is pretty relaxing to me. No stress, although I'm doing 1 & 3 when I do it. 2 & 4 does add a little tension but is great for building the syncopation feel.

I'd say at 125 I'd be uncomfortable from a groove point of view. I can play it but I feel a little panicky. I typically use ATTYA as my speed practice tune. Should be good enough right?

The speed thing was something I worked on a lot last year and I've attained the raw speed but not necessarily the groove. But it really helps in ballad playing as it just makes those sixteenths feel effortless, so I hear you. It's pretty important.

I've kind of set my speed practice aside and I just wanted to start it up again. Thanks for the tip.
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#1429698 - 05/04/10 06:27 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6988
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: beeboss
I was practicing Giant steps a bit today, well mainly some Shostakovich but I got into giant steps when I couldn't handle any more serious concentration!
It's not one of those tunes that I would like to play live, too tricky by half, but its fun to jam for a laugh. For your amusement here it is ....

http://www.divshare.com/download/11270810-d89


Hey David, I really liked that! thumb You made it sound really interesting and melodic. It's pretty hard to make Giant Steps sound interesting and you did it. Jeez that was some fast playing in there. Whew!

Was that about 250bpm?
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#1429710 - 05/04/10 07:16 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Posts: 6988
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OK Dave, I just now played 120 Half Time at 2 & 4, and then at 1 & 3.

I observed that for some reason I lost my swing at 2 & 4. Just as a matter of course, I've always targeted my syncopation to the in between beats of when I'm doing 1 & 3. So it's almost like I was already doing 2 & 4 in my head but needed the beat alignment of 1 & 3 to drive it.

I didn't feel any problem doing 120 using 1 & 3 and I'm not at a ceiling here as I'm playing lots of eights. So am I working on something that isn't broken?

I'm sure it's ok with a drum loop though is this just some problem with my perception of the metronome click and perceiving it as a hi-hat?

Am I weird?
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#1429720 - 05/04/10 07:40 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
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Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Originally Posted By: beeboss


Hey David, I really liked that! thumb You made it sound really interesting and melodic. It's pretty hard to make Giant Steps sound interesting and you did it. Jeez that was some fast playing in there. Whew!

Was that about 250bpm?


Thanks JW,
probably more like 220 bpm though.

Playing with the metronome on 2 and 4 is just harder than having it on 1 and 3. When the tempo is very fast it is very hard to hear the 1 in between the clicks. Sometimes I practice just hearing sequences in my head with the metronome set at 160+. It hurts my brain so it must be good!
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#1429726 - 05/04/10 07:53 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Originally Posted By: beeboss
Sometimes I practice just hearing sequences in my head with the metronome set at 160+. It hurts my brain so it must be good!


This actually is a great idea! Often the problem isn't just technical anymore as I can play the notes (well not to metronome 160. LOL...that'll really hurt my brain). It's hearing what I have to play.

I wonder if listening to fast tunes over and over accomplishes the same thing.

If you have the metronome at 2 & 4, do you tap your foot at 1 & 3?

Metronomes are awful though. No wonder you always practice to a backing track.
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#1429820 - 05/05/10 01:22 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Why has no one mentioned putting the metronome ONLY on 4? I have found this to be another way to listen to the metronome without too much information. The same can be done on slower tempos but having the metronome on the + of 4. Since I've started using the metronome again after many, many years use neglect I've found these two ways to be the most useful.
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#1429872 - 05/05/10 05:41 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
beeboss Offline
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Yes, only on 4 is very good as well. Or doing 3/4 over 2 clicks a bar, or just on the 2nd beat of 3/4 or many other possibilities. All good stuff.

I just wish metronomes did uneven beats for practice in different time sigs. It's such a hassle to program my own and it is so good to practIce.
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#1430022 - 05/05/10 01:11 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Originally Posted By: beeboss
Yes, only on 4 is very good as well. Or doing 3/4 over 2 clicks a bar, or just on the 2nd beat of 3/4 or many other possibilities. All good stuff.

I just wish metronomes did uneven beats for practice in different time sigs. It's such a hassle to program my own and it is so good to practIce.


I thought there was a metronome that does compound time sigs? I remember a number of years back there was a really expensive one that did any combination you could think of ie 17/8. These must still be available.

In any case what I've also found useful is listening to the metronome beat as 'shots' wherein I might be playing in 5/4 time, with the metronome happily ticking away in 4/4, but only one beat per bar. This will result in a shot on 4, then 3, then 2, etc in 5/4 time. It makes you really listen to my lines more than just the click, and also expands my understanding of hemiolas.
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#1430027 - 05/05/10 01:17 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Offline
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Hey Scep, interesting metronome ideas. At a fast tempo that makes sense. Less information is better. I'll give it a try.

BUT... 4+ on a ballad -- that's awfully slow isn't it? At 60bpm Quarters you're supposed to time exactly to the 4+? I'd think it'll be pretty hard to get your bearings. It's hard enough with 2 beats. But 1 non-aligned beat?

On Compound Time Sigs -- Use your Iphone/Itouch/IPad! Realistically the only thing I can use on complex time sigs and you can change the sound on the beat 1 click.

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#1430088 - 05/05/10 03:19 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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I was going the other way today, slowing the click way down. My metronome only goes to 30 bpm which is nowhere near slow enough, but with the computer I was going down to 6 bmp, although I think around 20 was the most useful. It felt like it was doing me good. And you can practice this away from the piano as its just a mental exercise.

I will program some other rhythms into a sequencer soon if anyone wants to try some different metronome ideas. I'll probably start with some clave patterns.
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#1430149 - 05/05/10 04:46 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee

BUT... 4+ on a ballad -- that's awfully slow isn't it? At 60bpm Quarters you're supposed to time exactly to the 4+? I'd think it'll be pretty hard to get your bearings. It's hard enough with 2 beats. But 1 non-aligned beat?

Well I think the whole point is to get to where you understand the underlying pulse rather than the in your face 1234, so if you play only one beat per bar, or one every two bars your lines may reflect that back in that the ideas become more fluid and not tied to 2 and 4 or 1 and 3, etc.

Of course none of this will work until you can play with it in the basic way of metronome on every beat of every second beat. But once you can do that reducing the clicks seems to be the next step.

Didn't Galpner mention something like this too?
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#1430167 - 05/05/10 05:06 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Offline
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Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

BUT... 4+ on a ballad -- that's awfully slow isn't it? At 60bpm Quarters you're supposed to time exactly to the 4+? I'd think it'll be pretty hard to get your bearings. It's hard enough with 2 beats. But 1 non-aligned beat?

Well I think the whole point is to get to where you understand the underlying pulse rather than the in your face 1234, so if you play only one beat per bar, or one every two bars your lines may reflect that back in that the ideas become more fluid and not tied to 2 and 4 or 1 and 3, etc.

Of course none of this will work until you can play with it in the basic way of metronome on every beat of every second beat. But once you can do that reducing the clicks seems to be the next step.

Didn't Galpner mention something like this too?


I'm just saying that 4+ is a bit too slow at ballad tempo. It sounds pretty good at 100 and above though. I was just thinking a true ballad at 60. I can see how this changes the lines though since I typically will do a bass pickup at 4+ (I do it a lot on Very Early actually). So it works nicely here and gives a nice swing.

But 1 beat at too slow a tempo and it becomes a time exercise mostly I think. I'd be thinking of the time, not the tune. smile

I asked about the 1 and 3 on fast tunes because that's what Galper said in his video. I tap on 1 & 3 on a fast tune. So I'm a little surprised how everyone said do 2 & 4 on fast tunes. The reason I say that was that I thought that the intent on a fast tune is to relax, play in half time. 2 & 4 is not relaxing at 250. Although I suppose it's a useful stress exercise.

But in medium swing, 2 & 4 adds a nice pulse that can drive your swing.
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#1430223 - 05/05/10 06:12 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
KlinkKlonk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 351
Originally Posted By: beeboss
I will program some other rhythms into a sequencer soon if anyone wants to try some different metronome ideas. I'll probably start with some clave patterns.


What sequencer are you using? I've tried for the longest time to find something that lets me program crossrythms like 5,7,9 against 4. This http://www.bouncemetronome.com/Polyrhythm_Metronomes/index.htm would be ideal but it only works for PC and I run mac.

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#1430260 - 05/05/10 07:17 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: KlinkKlonk]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: KlinkKlonk

What sequencer are you using? I've tried for the longest time to find something that lets me program crossrythms like 5,7,9 against 4. This http://www.bouncemetronome.com/Polyrhythm_Metronomes/index.htm would be ideal but it only works for PC and I run mac.


Logic. I can't believe that anything is impossible in logic, although you may have to get out a calculator to work out 7's against 5's and that kind of stuff.
Anything against 4 should be easy enough to do.
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#1430320 - 05/05/10 08:38 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
KlinkKlonk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 351
Hmm I have Logic but haven't been able to work out how to have more then one pulse going at the same time, should look into it I guess.

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#1430421 - 05/06/10 12:47 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee


But 1 beat at too slow a tempo and it becomes a time exercise mostly I think. I'd be thinking of the time, not the tune. smile

So what do you use the metronome for then? I use it to steady my time when needed. If I can get to the point where I have one click for every 4 or 8 bars, or even a whole head then I think I may say I've improved my time. Let's not get confused about why we use them. They aren't there to help us with our voicings now are they? wink
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