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#1432677 - 05/08/10 11:39 PM Re: Microphone for Recording Piano [Re: rodmichael]
FogAudio Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 187
Loc: FL
I've been assembling some more pieces on the EBVT III thread. Here's another example recorded with my Studio Projects B1/B3. Same exact configuration as before.

Discovery-StudioProjectsB1&B3

Regards,
Ryan

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#1433217 - 05/09/10 09:27 PM Re: Microphone for Recording Piano [Re: FogAudio]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2250
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Really nice sound Ryan, and I like your composition...in EBVT III, it's very beautiful.

I posted this over in the EBVT III thread, and thought it would be good to post it here as another example of the Avenson STO-2 mics. smile

From the movie "Sabrina" music by John Williams, p/b B. Pezzone on the LX, in EBVT III http://www.box.net/shared/z4asx6zm1j

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#1433359 - 05/10/10 04:24 AM Re: Microphone for Recording Piano [Re: Grandpianoman]
Bunneh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 398
Loc: Berlin
Ryan,
thanks again for your help!

So your recommendation would be not to go with a B3 in Omni because capturing much of the room sound is in my case not desirable?

Then I suppose the first thing to try for me would be dual B1s in A/B configuration. I'll probably also go with the suggestion in another blog to open the lid to 1/4 and then have the mics just outside the piano. Guess I'll have to wait and see if that works out, of course.

Also, your 2nd recording sounds as lovely as the first! However, it has slightly too much stereo separation with headphones for my tastes. It makes me a bit dizzy and irritated... Would that be hard to fix, since you mentioned true mono would be an issue in an A/B setting?

Thanks and regards
Bunneh
_________________________
aim for the moon - if you miss, at least you'll be among the stars.

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#1433466 - 05/10/10 09:20 AM Re: Microphone for Recording Piano [Re: Bunneh]
FogAudio Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 187
Loc: FL
Yup, I would go for a matched set of cardiods. Although if you bought a switchable cardiod/figure 8/omni, you could try to do mid-side recording as well. MS also has the advantage that you can mix in how much stereo affect your after. However that takes either a special preamp (True Precision made one that had built in MS mixing) or software to mix the MS signals.

Glad you liked my second song. Yeah I am not as happy with this recording regarding the stereo sound either, I burned it to CD and played it on my stereo and I didn't think it translated there as well at all. I may play with the phase of the signals and repost if I can make it sound more natural.

Regards,
Ryan

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#1433520 - 05/10/10 10:59 AM Re: Microphone for Recording Piano [Re: rodmichael]
The Doghouse NYC Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 3
I second the recommendation for ribbon mics. The Beyer m-160s are, in my opinion, some of the unsung heroes in this category. While they still may be too quiet for the distance you may need with a classical recording, I wouldn't rule them out either because of the unusual fact that they are cardioid and not bi-directional like almost all other ribbons. This can help to focus them from a distance.

Because of their low sensitivity, they also seem to help with bleed. A single one near the tail might do well for your needs (I think I read that this was a classical recording?)

In any case, there are also a pair of articles on my website which you may find helpful:
Recording the Grand Piano
Recording the Upright Piano

Best of luck, Nathan
_________________________

Music Recording & Production
(866) 315-0321

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#1434410 - 05/11/10 12:52 PM Re: Microphone for Recording Piano [Re: The Doghouse NYC]
hv Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/18/04
Posts: 1226
Loc: Cape Cod
Back when I was trying to decide how to record my piano at home I did a bunch of test recordings with different mics. I snipped down these recordings of a Joseph Lamb piece from that session so hopefully the detail could be preserved in a high-res mp3 yet be small enough for PianoWorld's picture uploader size limits:

Alaskan Rag, AT825 Stereo Mic
Alaskan Rag, dual Neumann u87 xy Cardioid
Alaskan Rag, dual Neumann U87 mid-side

A bit later, I did some more test recordings to refine my mid-side technique. Below is a snippet of a piano passage from Laura Nyro's piece, Map To The Treasure:

Map, Neumann u87-mid + AEA R92 Ribbon-side
Map, Neumann u87-side + EarthWorks qtc40-mid

I liked the ribbon for the slower passages but I thought it seemed to lose detail and smoothness as the tempo picked up. More recently, I took the u87/qtc40 ms recording above and tried applying different delay and ambiance processing to the mid and side signals before decoding them in an effort to achieve a little more depth:

Map, 3D

... although I'm not sure how possible it really is to pull off a 3D effect in a stereo mp3.

Howard

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#1434483 - 05/11/10 02:39 PM Re: Microphone for Recording Piano [Re: hv]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4395
Loc: San Jose, CA
Pretty nice, hv--- as far as it goes. So, where's "Upstairs by a Chinese Lamp"?
_________________________
Clef


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#1434518 - 05/11/10 03:24 PM Re: Microphone for Recording Piano [Re: Jeff Clef]
hv Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/18/04
Posts: 1226
Loc: Cape Cod
Ha, ha. The wife hasn't learned that one. Yet. But Sue picked up on Nyro's Map arrangement at the Bottom Line concert that borrowed a little of it. Whole piece, btw, complete with Sue's vocal and cat is on YouTube. Same piano but done with the dpa's.

Howard

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#1453891 - 06/10/10 08:59 AM Re: Microphone for Recording Piano [Re: hv]
Bunneh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 398
Loc: Berlin
I've mentioned above that I found Ryan's recording of Watermark pretty great, but had an issue with the very large stereo separation while using headphones.

So I've gone ahead and applied a cheap trick, adding the right channel at -10db to the left and vice versa. The resulting recording does, to my untrained ear, sound much nicer over headphones. I've heard that some headphone amps do this stereo crossfade in the circuitry, that's where the idea is from...

Here is the modified version:
http://www.box.net/shared/zognqggheq

and Ryan's original:
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B6kQ2S7...3NjE3&hl=en

What does everyone think? Is this a dangerous process that costs audio quality for some reason? Apart from the obvious mixing and re-compressing of 16bit MP3s of course.

And I hope this was okay with you Ryan!
_________________________
aim for the moon - if you miss, at least you'll be among the stars.

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#1454421 - 06/11/10 02:31 AM Re: Microphone for Recording Piano [Re: Bunneh]
Scott_S Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/10
Posts: 42
Loc: Memphis, TN
Listened to that modified Watermark recording with some earbuds (didn't have access to my Grados) and it sounded great. Thanks for posting!

Scott
_________________________
Kawai K5 (Polished mahogany)

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#2103768 - 06/17/13 10:29 AM Re: Microphone for Recording Piano [Re: Grandpianoman]
Omer Eilam Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/16/13
Posts: 21
Originally Posted By: Grandpianoman
Here is another example with the Avenson STO-2's in a slightly different position.

"Il Postino" http://www.box.net/shared/s4jke70s5l



Resurrecting this thread from 3 years ago smile
I recently purchased the Avenson STO2's and I really like the aforementioned recording. Any chance you can elaborate on your positioning?

Thanks!
omer

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#2104451 - 06/18/13 03:14 PM Re: Microphone for Recording Piano [Re: FrankieFrank]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3247
Quote:
Any suggestion of microphone for use with piano? 88-key piano generate sound frequency from 27.5Hz to 4186Hz, but most microphone on the market has frequency range from 100Hz to 10000Hz.


Yes and therefore most microphones are not good for piano.

I suggest FLAT frequency response from 20 to 20KHz (say 1dB deviation or so max). This eliminates most microphones. IMHO large diaphragms are not good either because their diaphragm is larger than the wavelength of a 20kHz wave. And determine how you want to record: if you want to put the mics right in the piano, you have really huge peak volumes of 130+dB. Many mics and amps can not cope with that. Finally check the dynamic range and noise levels.
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#2104455 - 06/18/13 03:21 PM Re: Microphone for Recording Piano [Re: FrankieFrank]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3247
Here are a few of my recordings, DPA4060 with Jecklin disk

http://recitals.pianoworld.com/recital_f...isterieuses.mp3

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/sinding.mp3

http://recitals.pianoworld.com/recital_files/Recital_30/03.%20wouter79%20-%20Prelude,%20Op.32%20No.12.mp3

http://recitals.pianoworld.com/recital_files/Recital_29/08.%20wouter79%20-%20Allegro%20non%20troppo%20in%20c%20minor,%20op.38%20no.2.mp3

And here is a previous discussion on this

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1838148/best%20piano%20microphone.html
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#2104468 - 06/18/13 03:50 PM Re: Microphone for Recording Piano [Re: Larry B]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3247
Originally Posted By: Larry B
Originally Posted By: FrankieFrank
Any suggestion of microphone for use with piano? 88-key piano generate sound frequency from 27.5Hz to 4186Hz, but most microphone on the market has frequency range from 100Hz to 10000Hz.


Frequency range numbers will be meaningless here. Ten different kinds of mics with equivalent "frequency range" specs will all sound different from each other...


Yes. That's because many manufacturers say for example "20H-40kHz" while the actual deviation is already -3dB at 50Hz and dropping fast there (Schoeps CMC6xt http://www.microphone-data.com/microphones/cmc6xt/) . You really need to check the frequency curve and ignore the quoted "frequency response".
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