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Emmery, OTOH, there is clear evidence that during the last 3000 years that the Pythogorean scale has been tweaked and adjusted to approximate the most pleasing sound. The evidence of this are the large number of alternatives there are (with new ones such as EBVT III coming out all the time). Other instruments with centuries old issues have also attempted at improving harmony (and intonation).

Other instruments have also been experimenting in these regards. On guitar a novel technique has been created and has been very popular with professionals: http://www.buzzfeiten.com/.

Most notably, some very good electronic instruments have employed a technique of dynamic tuning called Hermode tuning: http://www.hermode.com/index_en.html

I think those of us who understand the problems of the chromatic/diatonic scale are very welcome to these experiments (whether or not they represent a "fad").

Regards,
Ryan

Emmery, I think it's a sad thing that more pianos aren't tuned with the "life" that EBVT III can bring them.

--Andy

I think very few tuners actually tune to equal temperament. That might be their goal, but in reality when they set the temperament, many are not right on equal temperament but rather some variation that sounds good to them.

Unless a tuner uses an electronic tuner and sets each note to equal temperament then I'll stick my neck out and say that ALL aural tuners do NOT tune in equal temperament.

Well, it's a pity that Bill already knows the answers, but perhaps a few more of the EBVT-III proponents (or enthusiasts) can chime in? For my part, I'm off this weekend to a brass band festival of our church. I'll pop back into this thread next week.

Peace to all.

I love experimental and alternative things and welcome them with open hands, but I do understand the reasons why some things persevere and respect that also as do most people. A piano begins to slip out of tune the moment the tuner pulls his hammer off the last pin. Sometimes its quite a while before they get tuned again. One reason that tuners pick ET to tune in is that it is a theoretical perfection, a bullseye to aim for but one we always miss by a bit because of the nature of how piano strings do not produce perfect partials.

Everybody knows that to get near a bullseye in shooting...you have to aim at it. How can a temperament that deviates from true ET in the initial process of "aiming" be expected to sound as decent as one that doesn't, especially once things begin to slip out of their original settings? I doubt it does. If there are certain intervals that require more precise alignment because they border on unacceptability, these same intervals will sound much worse as the tuning fades than ones that have an adequate buffer zone which ET by nature provides equally. As for beauty, its in the eye of the beholder; its not uncommon for brazen artists to think their own creations are the most beautiful and to try and convince others to think likewise.

Jeez, Bill, I'm glad you're alright... and very good to hear that the damages are of material nature!



Mark, as I said earlier I'd be happy to participate, but I feel I have an unfair advantage, too, as I believe I get too much help from my sound engineer background.

Anyways, I PM:ed my 'guesses' to GP, so we'll see how my analytic skills hold up

Here's an excerpt from my PM to GP:


To me, there are harmonic give-aways in each of the sound clips. The one that stands out most (to my ears) is the cadenza right in the beginning of Il Postino.

There are similar ones in 'Everything happens to me' and 'Out of Africa', too. I encourage everybody to listen for harmonic movement, it might be a rewarding experience! When I play written music, this difference in the temperaments is the main reason that my interpretations come out differently.

Actually Emmery. ET is not theoretical perfection at all! It is a "temperament" just like any other temperament. In fact, it is expected to have a certain amount of dissonance. While ET is pretty close at its best for fifths and fourths, not even in theory are the intervals perfect. For instance, comparing the ratio of fifths (to just intonation JI):

Perfect ET ET-cents JI JI-cents JI-ET
Perfect fifth: 1.5 1.498307 700c 1.5 701.96c ~2c

And compared to JI for a minor seventh ET is 31 cents off of perfection (that's 1/3 of a note interval, yikes!!). I guess this is just my opinion, but ET is nowhere near perfection. Of course, ET has many desirable qualities such as having the same color/moods of tone transposed to any key. EBVT III probably introduces some very subtle distinctions from key to key (which I am ok with).

Also, excellent vocalists, string players, etc never play in ET. I remember listening to Bonnie Raitt on Richard Thompson's song Dimming of the Day (excellent rendition BTW). There is one note that she hits in the song which bridges from one chord to another. The first time I heard it I remember thinking what an awesome vocalist she is. You can distinctly hear her pitch rise from chord to chord (maybe 5-10 cents) as she brings her voice into consonance with the second chord. Stellar. I wish I could remember exactly the line in that tune.

Regards,
Ryan

That's a great post Fog. The reason we have temperaments at all is because our scale does not satisfy the math.

Just found the song online.

~1:25
"You know just where I keep my better siiiiide"

and again,
~2:30
"... you could be my confidaaaaant"

So good,
Ryan

Another brief respite from the obvious rigors of this temperament test.

"September Song" p/b Roger Williams, in EBVT III http://www.box.net/shared/iqbytlal5g

Curious....how many tuners in the states...dont come on PW...so really have not expressed any opinions on temperment tuning....
so far....about 20 different people have been involved, in this thread. I gather many are players...I am guessing there is hardly a conclusion to be drawn about how any tuning style compares to another. I would not call it a fad...but certainly not a trend

Hi Richard,

No one knows how many tuners are really here. The number of views for this thread is very high, and perhaps there are a lot of tuners here who are listening but not commenting on EBVT III, and not participating in the temperament test.

Probably correct....I just meant its probably too early to put a label on a new thing. I like it....and with most of Bills articles from his web page, great stuff. Always good to learn new tricks...especially an old dog like me....

Except that most of what is believed to be ET is really reverse well. Yep, tens of thousands of piano tuners keep cranking it out every day.

I noticed that you didn't try to identify which was which and I know the reason. You aren't really sure. You are sure of of a few things, I know that: You only believe in ET. It is the "modern" way to tune. You wouldn't recognize reverse well if you heard it, so therefore, it doesn't happen, I just made it up. You are sure about not joining PTG and taking the exams too, very sure. You already took exams that proved you knew more than the PTG exams cover. You are sure you would never send any of your money to the USA.

But you aren't sure which of these recordings are ET and which are the EBVT III and that undermines everything you have ever thought you knew for sure about piano tuning. You said in one post that you would not discuss anything with me anymore, yet you still try to provoke arguments. If you don't want to comment, don't comment. If you don't like the EBVT III, then why did you even read what was posted here?

Mark R., count me as a proponent and enthusiast!

I'm embarassed to say that I'm 1 for 3! I got the first one right, and missed the next two. Once I learned the answers, I went back to see what fooled me, and to understand my mistakes. I see now where I missed it.

Nevertheless, I know what's on my piano, EBVT III, and I love it! I know what I heard in a live jazz performance, it was EBVT III, and the pianist loved it, and so did I! I know what I've been listening to in GP's, Patrick's, Nick's, Glen's, Ryan's, and Bill's recordings, EBVT III, and I love it!

I'm not a tuner, but I am an avid listener. There is a difference in the temperaments. To me, it is a pleasing difference. I don't believe I got one right by chance. I do believe I got two wrong because I mis-interpreted what I was hearing.

--Andy

Let the music flow.....

I posted this in another thread dealing with bass strings, and thought it appropriate to post here as well, since it as after all, in EBVT III.


"Rhapsody" Op.11, No2, composed and played by Ernst Von Dohnanyi on the Ampico Reproducing Roll System. http://www.box.net/shared/xnojy1dxnj

Bill,

isn´t EBVT III more recent than ET? So why do you say ET is the modern way?
Et was introduced to overcome limitations of unequal temperaments, that happened already 300 years ago. EBVT III is not older than how many years? And you want to tell us that the composers who died 200 years ago just wanted to express their music with only and just the sound EBVT III does produce? For me there are too much contradictions in this argumentations.

Even in Bach´s well tempered clavier there are pieces with different mood in all keys, including outer keys, not only sad mood for outer keys and happy mood for diatonic keys. A clear evidence for me that Bach composed for ET and nothing else (he had knowledge about ET from Werckmeister).

Yet another contradiction is to claim clarity for EBVTIII while at the same time "warbling" of the tone is very prominent in many keys.

Not to forget that ET is not ET, as recently there has been development of different ETs to further improve limits of standard ET:
www.piano-stopper.de/dl/PTG2008_StopperTemperament.pdf

We often hear the argument here that EBVT III may be more "musical" while other approaches are more theoretical. I can´t disagree more with this statement, as it implies a discriminational character. When speaking about musicality we should bear in mind, that this term has not the same meaning for everyone and should therefore not be claimed as to be true by the proponents of one or another approach.

My concerns about the comparative recordings where not about the technical recording setups, but that the recordings where all not on a professional level by tuning quality. There is a clear indication for me here that for the proponents of EBVT III the tuning quality doesn´t really matter, as there is general raving about the recordings, at the same time often accompanied by comments that regions of the tuning were unstable.

For me (and probably most professional tuners), tuning quality does matter and is essential to improve dynamic and color palette (i avoid the statement to achieve more musicality...).

Again i see no sense in competing about this or that method. It is all a matter of taste and there will be always people who prefer one or the other ways. It even doesn´t have evidence if proponents for one or another way are in majority or minority. As said already, some people like the "warbling" tone of belcanto singing, but many doesn´t, one reason for me why opera or classical string orchestra music is not so popular as it could be perhaps today. I adore for example Roger Norrington´s romantic orchestra repertoire, where he forbids the warbling of the tone.

Bernhard Stopper

Isn't it interesting that this EBVT III thread has garnered so many views since I started it on March 3, 2010. 37,180 views as of today. Are they coming here to read about and listen to "out of tune" pianos tuned by "hacks" and "amateurs" and hear pianos that have "unstable" areas, and listen to and read about a temperament that is not musical? I don't think so.

Yes, I may not be a professional tuner, and my tunings are not perfect, unisons etc, but I can certainly say that they are pretty good for an amateur, and certainly good enough to show the differences between temperaments. You were even complimentary Bernard...I quote from an email you sent me regarding my ETD comparison posting ",,,,Congratulations, the piano sounds very nice, great work."

Yes, opinions vary, thank heavens, as the world would be very boring if they did not. That old saying, "Variety is the spice of Life" How appropriate for this thread on EBVT III.

I am sure we will soon be hearing some examples from several "professional" tuners, stay tuned.

For your enjoyment:

"Il Postino" http://www.box.net/shared/s4jke70s5l

Bernhard, you have to read the context. The word modern is even in quotation marks, to make sure the message gets through.


I've never heard Bill say anything along those lines. What he says is that 'composers who died 200 years ago' probably might have been composing using an unequal temperament. Besides, there are numerous references that state that ET was not looked keenly on when it was introduced. I think that might be a natural reaction. Bleaching the color spectra into grayscale, must have felt strange.


What a simplification! - did anybody say that close keys are happy and remote keys are sad? I don't think so.

Bill speaks about the different characteristics of the keys, and clearly states that the choice was up to the composer. As an example, Beethoven might have wanted to create tension in the root cadenzas by scoring in Ab major, whereas someone like Mendelssohn might have modulated to Ab major as a a temporary effect,'spicing' up the harmony.

Oh, and by the way, all 12 major keys and their relative minors are equally diatonic.


Haven't heard this one either. EBVT III brings color to the keys. Harmonic motion, not clarity.


Yes, but a stretched ruler is only stretching the reading scale - there would be no shuffling of the subdivisions. ET XL will still be ET in my book.


Haven't heard this one, either. (Still, something might have been said in the heat of the moment, but if that's the case, please give me some reference to those postings here.)
What I've heard (and said myself) is that EBVT III sounds very musical. I've even stated several times that I experience ET as grayscale and EBVT as colors, but that is not about the musical validation of either one.


Well, this is not how I instinctively interpreted your earlier post about the recording quality. So the sound files are suddenly ok, now it's the tunings themselves? Bear with me, just trying to follow you here.

If you hear possible tuning deviations in GP:s great recordings (jeez, his tunings are getter better blazingly fast ), your ears are without doubt developed to an extent where it should be easy for you to know from which temperament the tunings are deviating.

Same thing with your earlier post about the non-professional quality of GP:s recordings (yeah, I know you withdrew/rephrased that statement, but I think your earlier post leaves no doubt as to what you imply).

GP:s recordings are what close mics sound like in any average professional recording studio I've worked in through the years.

They are, however, 'readable' to a sound engineer, which should give you and edge in the blindfold. The test should be no problem whatsoever to you. I would like to challenge you to go ahead and take the quiz! You are without any doubt a skilled piano tuner, so your answers would be most valuable to this thread.

I would just like to say that I love BOTH temperaments.

And I love the versatility of using both - it's like being bilingual.

Yesterday I tuned in ET and it is awesome! (when done right and unisons perfect)

But, I really like the EBVT III - thanks, Bill!

- Nick