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Both the Bach and Scriabin sound great. The EBVT sounds really good on that piano.

Thanks for the "pipe organ effect" Andy! The enhanced one is unbelievable! You are the first to post it! I've suggested it to many but none have come through with it yet. If a lowly Lester spinet can produce that kind of sound, just imagine what a Steinway D or Fazioli could do!

When I finished my tuning at the concert hall yesterday, I said to the sound engineer, "Hey, listen to this! When I finish playing all the keys, tell me this does not sound like a pipe organ. I did it and he said, "Wow! That is amazing! It really does sound like a pipe organ!"

I also enjoyed very much the two recordings you made of music. I found the Bach to be especially appropriate for the kind of piano you have but the Scriabin was also a pleasant surprise.

Yes, GP, I recall on your piano and the M&H BB that I tuned at the PTG convention, I was a bit disappointed. It was there but not what I had heard on other pianos. Somehow, a Baldwin Acrosonic does a great job. The Steinway D is quite impressive but never had I been in a cathedral like I was for a moment when I played it on a Fazioli!

That's very interesting Bill. Is there a reason why the M&H BB does not have the full effect?

I just posted this in another thread, but thought it would be good to revisit here. It does not sound like an organ per se, but there is so much resonance when the dampers are up, and the harmonies are so beautiful, the effect in EBVT III is quite something.

"Going back through my recent recordings of EBVT III with Ari's hammers and strings, I find that this piece really demonstrates the synergy of the hammers, strings, and the Wapin, all beautifully enhanced by the EBVT III tuning. One can lose one's self in the magical sounds of this piece from Debussy. You can almost picture the reflections in the water.

The ultimate is to download it, then play it back with a pair of headphones."

"Reflets dans L'eau" by Debussy, played with the Ampico by Leo Orenstein http://www.box.net/shared/4i7phr8ezs

Hello GP, the pipe organ effect is just an interesting albeit amazing side effect, not the purpose behind tuning in the EBVT. It just doesn't come through as well on a low inharmonicity piano because I can't stretch the upper octaves as much as I can on other pianos. Everything you have played on your piano has always sounded wonderful, however, so don't worry about that.

If you are able to, just press the damper pedal and strike a long, C Major arpeggio: first the lowest C octave, then 5th (G) then C-E-G all the rest of the way to the top and let it ring. Record that and if it sounds anything like a pipe organ to you, then post it.

The "Réflets dans l'eau" has always been one of my favorites!

BDB,
Would you please elaborate? I don't know what you mean, and I really want to know, because when people give me advice, I want to consider it carefully.

Thanks!

Dear Grandpianoman, Jake, and Bill,

Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed them!

Here's one more I did today that I just have to share. It is a picture postcard from northern Illinois. Watercolor, I think. In front of my house is a bush. Birds sing. In front of the bush is a street. Cars go by. Across the street is a playground. Children play. This is Sunday morning, eleven o'clock, early springtime, windows open. Daffodils and crabapple blossoms. The key is G major.

Vladimir Rebikoff-Mouvement Plastique

And now for a report: I got to hear one of Bill's pianos in EBVT III on Friday night. It was the one mentioned in the above quote, a Steinway D. The setting was a moderate-sized performance hall. The piano was accompanied by a stand-up acoustic bass (which had a pickup) and a drum set.

The pianist was Michael Kaeshammer, who plays a boogie style. He's a very animated performer who interacts with the piano in a variety of ways. He's the kind of musician that challenges the piano to BE musical--playing the whole range of keys, thundering in the bass and tickling the soprano, drumming on the cabinet to elicit various pitches from the wood, muting the strings with his hand or forearm while playing chords, harping the strings at musically appropriate times. He's a vibrant performer with a keen sense of humor and a drive to make the piano speak.

Bill left at intermission and didn't get to enjoy this accolade, so I'm relating it here as a testament to the EBVT III temperament in this setting--

After a whole bunch of rowdy pieces in which it was obvious that the performers and the audience were enjoying things very much, Mr. Kaeshammer slowed it down in a solo section. He played a quiet, harmonious piece that started with a pop pattern in the left hand ala Bruce Hornsby and morphed into an improvisation ala George Winston (but better than any George Winston I've heard!). I could tell he was really into the sound of the piano, because every so often he would play a line and smile with delight. (I believe I know exactly what he was experiencing!) At the end of the piece, as he took his bow, he acknowleged the piano, TWICE, during the applause, patting it, pointing INTO it, and when the applause died down, said, "That's a really nice piano!" He meant, of course, "That piano sounds beautiful! Thank you Mr. Piano Tuner Whoever You Are!"

Another highlight was the encore, in which they did a version of a sentimental pop song. I don't know the name of it, but it has a memorable melody. It was a quiet piece, and the drummer used yarn mallets. The bass player used the electric bass. The sound was warm and rich. It was very nicely done and the piano and the bass were perfectly in tune. At times, the piano and bass played a duet with the bass playing a chorded melody against the piano's thematic rhythms. This, with the sound of the quiet wash of the cymbals and gentle, toneful thub of the toms on the drums was quite stunning.

For those of you who are not familiar with Michael Kaeshammer, here's a sample. However, the piano in this clip doesn't come close to the tuning Bill gave the Steinway in the Janesville performance hall. The EBVT III sounded "up," "healthy," and alive. The piano in this clip sounds flat and sickly by comparison.

Michael Kaeshammer Hamps Boogie-Woogie / Sweet Georgia Brown

--Andy Strong

Thanks so much Andy! I loved your last piece. Wow! I did not know that the artist had acknowledged my work (which is rare for an artist to do but I have seen them do it far more often for unequal temperaments than they ever do for ET). So, to all those who condemned the EBVT III and said or implied that a performing artist would find it unacceptable, I have never found that to be true. Instead, they offer accolades.

I think you should try the same thing on a variety of pianos, rather than just a worn-out spinet.

BDB, I saw the old upright that Andy rescued. It is quite a well build piano and really not in bad shape at all. I would love to help him recondition it. Whether or not Andy could really afford to go out and buy a new piano, I sense that he would gain more from the experience of saving the old one that had been put out as trash. He could always sell it later and get a new piano.

BDB and Bill--

Ha-ha-ha! (That's me laughing melodiously and with good intentions.) Yes, BDB, I would love to broaden my horizons that way!!! Yes, Bill, you are absolutley right and I'll look forward to your directions! Here is a long, way-off-topic reply about some of my journey, since you brought it up...

Last month, I went piano shopping and spent several hours at the piano store in town to see if I believed it was the right time to hunt for a nicer piano. I played the heck out of two Yamaha uprights, one Kawai upright, a couple of Yamaha grands, a Pearl River upright and a grand, a Mason and Hamlin grand, and two Charles Walter consoles. I was specifically looking for touch and tone. I listened and listened and listened and I touched and touched and touched. Nothing beat my Lester. Honestly!

I have also had a lot of experience on a Yamaha grand (new in 1982) that belonged to my dad. It was a joy to play and we spent many hours together on it playing four-hand arrangements (Dvorak, Haydn). Then, when my dad passed away, I spent many hours playing it, deciding how to take care of it. (He lived in New Hampshire, I live in Illinois). For a variety of reasons, I gave it to his star student who had recently gotten a Masters in Music Composition (I truly believe it was the right thing to do, and now we are growing to be brothers because of it!) I also believed (and still do) that at the right time and in the right way I would get a really nice piano that is right for me. At the moment, I'm not in a position to buy a bigger, better piano. But when I noticed this Schiller sitting on a neighbor's porch, I kept geting that nagging feeling that I should check it out, which is why it is in my basement now. So, instead of a fine piano at the moment, God gave me a project! Who am I to argue?

I've had my Lester for about 16 years. I got it because I liked its touch and tone and thought we could cooperate. I believed in my Lester, and now that Bill got his hands on it, listen to the sound! I believe in my Schiller, too. (I think Beethoven is going to sound great on it. And fox trots, GP!) Time will tell what specific temperament it needs to bring out its beauty!

So that's some background about past horizons. Who knows what the future holds? For now, I'm content with a piano that lets me play well enough to make some home-made CDs for friends and old ladies, and a piano where I can earn some sweat equity! So, Bill, you're right, I've always been interested in piano guts and I think I have the patience to work with them, now.

BDB, Bill, thank you so much for your thoughts! Sorry if this bunny trail went to "the land of too much information!" But that's my story and I'm sticking with it!



Andy Strong

...By "old ladies," I meant "little old ladies," as in, "little old ladies who give me cookies for helping them get their houses fixed up without getting cheated." (That is my superpower). I missed the edit window and hope I didn't offend anyone!

--CB

Andy is the kind of customer that confirms for me the reason never to refuse service based upon the kind of piano they have. Any piano can provide a pleasurable musical experience through the application of basic piano technology.

Glen,
I just studied your Bach C maj prelude comparisons, and here's what I hear. (I know this piece VERY well)...

The EBVT III is quieter, wetter, and sweeter. The prior ET is "pokey," meaning it pokes at your ears. It is cutting and harsh and sour by comparison. Your playing is very thoughtful, sensitive, and even (which is VERY difficult to pull off in any rendering of this piece). Kudos.

I wonder if Bach knew what he was giving future generations when he wrote this "test piece"?

I also wonder if Jeff Beck knew what he was doing when he recorded "Goodbye Porkpie Hat"? Jeff Beck made some poke-notes in his rendition as well!...

Ive listened again to the Bach 2 versions, and I feel the same probably as you when playing, meaning a little surprized with some changes in chords harmony a little unsecure (may be because you are not yet used to that temperament, you are way more at ease with the ET version, even if yes the tuning could have be a little more "singing" - it is yet avery good tuning I'd say.) .

In the EBVT version Some intervals looks like if their span is too large.
The final C maj harmony is nice but with something not quiet, to me.

The more it goes the less I find beauty in unevenness, but indeed I am really having a very accurate hear, used to ET etc...

It seem as that purity is higher (in some tones indeed) , but at the expense of resonance, globally.

SO the musical output may be can be more in front , I dont know, but the harmonic foundation give me feeling of insecurity.
It may in any case be a nice experience from the pianist point of view, the ear/brain like to be surprised.

If it was possible to get that feeling without the sensation of discomfort, that would be perfect.

I would try however to have that kind of purity in standard tuning whenever possible. Unisons quality (and tuning pin firmness) play a large role in that (even more than I have believed before)

Yes agreed it is also rewarding, and you feel you have done right to some musician.

But somewhere it is a pity that good pianos are so rare.

On those kind of piano, a service call range between 4 and 8 hours (the first one). Often, despite the explanations, the customer stay on the impression that I am doing "too much" ("this is not for concerts"...). And remind of the cost before calling me back for a regular tuning, so most of the benefit is often lost soon.

I am well aware of that now when dealing with those situations, most often I do a PR and a little cleaning, screw tightening, capstan turning for a moderate fee, and I take an other date with a quote to make the final job.

With the method "preparatory tuning + extra strong pin setting) shown lately by Alfredo to me, it is possible to make in one pass a little PR ( up to 20 cts possibly) and final tuning (whith a good judgement about the stretching)

A good EDT may help for those situations, as I noticed sometime (when I was using EDTs daily) that a large PR can be more settled (tuning pin wise) than an usual tuning for some reasons (probably the fact that when using an EDT we move not enough the tuning pin and string because if we do so the display get crazy).

Yes, Isaac, we have heard it all before. You like ET, only ET and anything else disturbs you. There are a few other people that say the same thing but many more people who don't. The artists often make positive comments about their musical experience but have nothing at all to say about what ET does for them. They can only comment about the piano itself.

The fact is that Bach did not write this music for ET and did not play it in ET. I know, there are people who say that he could have and will go to any length, any speculation possible to find some way to say that he did or that if he lived today, he would want ET.

So, I will counter your remarks and say that I have listened to both versions and I prefer the one in EBVT III. I dislike listening to almost any piano tuned in ET and don't even finish listening to the recording. I rarely go to a concert where there is a piano tuned in ET but when I do, I find myself not listening to the music but thinking how I could have made the piano sound better and more interesting.

I fully understand that if you were to attend a concert where I had tuned the piano, you would do the same. You would not enjoy the music, you would be saying how this interval or that is too large, the others are too small. Every phrase of the music would disturb your sense of balance and harmony. You would go on to say that no artist for whom you work would ever want that.

You claim to have "perfect pitch" but I know that there is no such thing as perfect pitch. It does not exist. No one can have what does not exist. What does exist among a few technicians and even a very few pianists is an overly developed sensitivity to ET. That is what you have.

So, I fully understand what your opinion is and that you are entitled to have your own opinion. However, this means that the only thing you can or ever will say about any of these examples of music in another temperament is that it sounds wrong to you. You are welcome to keep saying that but don't expect that it will prevent others from having a continuous journey in the pleasure of discovering all of the nuances of music that are impossible to discover in ET.

None of what can be heard from a piano tuned in a non-ET can be heard from a piano tuned in ET by playing louder or softer, slower or faster or by using the pedals in various ways. Yet, all of those techniques can be used to enhance further any music played in a non-ET.

What I continually see from the ET only people is an effort to suppress the use of non-ETs to the point of trying to forbid it. The ET only people wish to impose and enforce their own opinion on the entire world. If they manage to impose their rule, no one would ever hear any music any other way.

This, unfortunately, has mostly already come true. The recording industry and music education profession have already accepted it and believe in it without question. The greatest fear among the ET only crowd is that someone may experience a non-ET and actually like it. That can only open the possibility that the people who pay for piano tuning will discover that there are in fact, alternatives and will ask for them.

The deliberate suppression of knowledge of anything but ET created its own nemesis: Reverse Well. Pianists learned to stop really listening to the music they play because of it. When they hear what beauty really can come from the piano, they embrace it.

It's been a long hard road for me to persist in what I believe but I find daily confirmation that it is the right path to follow and I am not turning back. My clients all like what I do. The few negative comments expressed here by a small minority of technicians never do construct a solid argument against it while the positive comments far outweigh the negative.

What would be interesting, is for anyone who wants to take the time and trouble, would be to post some A/B examples on the piano forum. Without identifying which is which, ask the readers to comment on the same music played in ET and the EBVT III or any other non-ET. Which example do you prefer and why? Any descriptive terms are encouraged. Most people will not be able to say which recording is ET but they will have a preference. I already know that the preference for the non-ET will far outweigh the preference for ET.

There are already enough such postings in various threads to do this. I hope that more can be made and it can be an on-going study.

Dear all,

I've quickly popped into this thread, after taking a break for a few weeks. Bill's closing comment struck me:



With all due respect, Bill, it's really not surprising that there will be more (apparent) support for non-ET, because as soon as someone in these threads starts criticising non-ET (specifically EBVT-III), he/she gets accused of "wanting to forbid" non-ET, or "wanting you to change the way you do things" - sometimes to the point of being flamed by you. (As I myself have experienced)

Are you surprised, then, that there are (apparently) more supporters of non-ET than critics? Who would want to criticise if the outcome is bound to be a flaming by Mr Bremmer?

Just for the record: I don't think for one moment that Jeff (UnrightTooner), Isaac (Kamin) or anybody else is trying to "forbid" anything, or trying to "make you change your (oh-so-bad) ways". That's what you read into their criticism. (Criticism that was asked for, but not welcomed when it was given!)

If negative feedback is only going to make you defensive, why ask for feedback in the first place?

Anyhow, for my part, I've listened to a number of EBVT-III recordings, and find the deviations from ET so small that I don't find it objectionable.

Wishing all technicians happy tuning!

It has all been stated previous Mark. Interesting to note while everyone here is willing to let Bremmer have his point of view (however skewed it may be) and further, everyone is willing to let him tune the way he would like to, Bill simply cannot abide the fact that some might have a differing point of view. And have people tune differently??? It is almost piano tuning blasphemy according to Bill...
The whole scenario gets tiresome and quite silly after a while....