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Thank you, Del, for your explanations regarding the thinned hammer shanks, this assures me that I'm not holding a piano which needs expensive works to restore it to its should-be state.

The voice-down that I had was only a very minor touch-up voicing work, lasted only between 20 to 30 minutes, done after the tuning by a technician recommended by Grotrian-Steinweg (I emailed Grotrian in Germany, and they gave me the name of their trusted technician who serves LA area). This tech only worked on maybe 10 to a dozen harsh notes, here and there, to voice them down, he used needle to scratch only the surface of the hammers -maybe less than 0.5 milimeter depth, I did not see he needled into the inner layer at all.

When I asked him about the sound of my piano - bright? dark? ..., he said that different people have different tastes, he can help me to achieve what I want, but he can not tell me if my piano sound is good or bad... My subjective opinion is my Grotrian grand is overall much, much better than my 42 inch upright Yamaha, but in the upper range it does not give me as much pleasing sound as our small Yamaha or the Steinway B we tried recently!

Room acoustic: The room is 18 x 20 x 8.9 feet, covered with cheap standard carpet - not thick, the room has only one sofa and some small furnitures, so I guess that the room is OK, not bright, not dark.

"Did the upper range sound this way from the beginning?" I bought this piano in 1991 but then became very busy with my professional life, my other activities and only played it in the first 9 months then left it alone. My wife played it only in the recent 2 years and we have 2 pianos, she goes between 2 pianos because the Grotrian is too loud at night time, so in fact the hammers are very new, and they would be nearly the same as there were from beginning.

I will learn from this forum to have better understanding of the issue before talking to the tech for the coming package tuning+regulation+voicing. I also wonder if this package is neccessary or not, the piano condition is new because it is not used much, but in 19 years it was moved 5 times between 5 houses, including the shipping by boat from France to Los Angeles.

Amicably.

Since we're specifically talking about grands, just thought I'd add that this is also common among upright pianos to help improve the tone in the upper register.



The 'smugness' of some folks in the piano business (eg Hanlet tech) never ceases to amaze me.
The injustice that is done to the consumer (eg, hoola) is unfortunate.
How many of these sorts of posts on PW have gone by without a qualified tech (eg. Del in this case) getting involved and correcting people's understanding of different aspects of pianos and how they function?

very interesting Del.

i don't have a hand rubbed satin finish.

Thanks for the comments, elecmuse3.

I have about $4500 in my grand piano. It was the biggest and best piano I could find within my price point that I was willing to pay at the time. Plus, I was tired of looking for a pre-owned grand piano at my price point so I bought the Tokai. Even though some here say the brand is a piece of junk, I disagree with that opinion and think is a decent enough instrument and it has met my needs so far. I have actually gotten a lot of enjoyment and use out the piano since I have had it.

But, as with any hobby, there is always a desire to have something better than what we have. I have come to the conclusion that if I hire a tech to replace the hammers and bass strings, I’m looking at around $2000. If I do it myself, maybe $1000; my cost estimates may be off a little. I know I would probably never get my total investment back out of my piano if I sold it. So, the dilemma goes on. If I trade up, I figure I’ll spend $8000 or so (or more) plus my trade; contrary to what some here say, I have had a few dealers to tell me they are familiar with the Tokai brand and have respect for it and would accept it as a trade-in. I could buy a $20,000 piano and pay cash for it, but I just can’t justify paying that much money for a piano, even though I enjoy learning to play the piano. But, you never know, I may change my mind and take the plunge.

Why am I telling you all this? I have no idea… maybe I need some sort of psychological counseling or something! Monica, where are you!!!

Take care,

Rick

Rick,

You love playing the piano, you are a better player then me and I can justify owning my new grand, so can you!

You are on PW every day and you play the piano everyday.
It seems that pianos are your (healthy) addiction in life, why not indulge yourself and buy the best piano possible (within your financial means!)

You tokai is probably a great piano but partly rebuilding it?



Go shopping (Even if you don't buy, it is great to look around)

Dear Del, Newgeneration

Is the operation of thinning the hammer shanks a frequent or rare practice? How rare is it? It seems that not a lot of technicians know, or use this technique, I read “Piano servicing, tuning, and rebuilding” of Arthur A. Reblitz and find no related information from the book. Any piano literature talk about this technique?

I have no intention to do any works on the piano by myself, just want to get information, advices to know what I can ask technician to improve the sound quality of my piano which is still unsatisfying. The problem is every technicians are not created equally, so we should be knowledgeable enough to set the upper limit of service to ask to have better quality instead of worsen one.

Hi, Konzert Patrick!

Thanks for the psychological counseling, my friend!! By-the-way, thanks for the complements on my playing, but I’m not so sure I can play better than you! My back-woods, hillbilly piano playing may sound good to me, but not to other, more sophisticated players. You are right about me being on Piano World every day, though… an addiction maybe!! But, a healthy addiction, as you say!!

I know you enjoy you new, high quality grand piano there in the Netherlands!!! Who knows, maybe I’ll forget about that new pick-up truck and buy a better piano instead!

Hoola, I apologize for intruding into your thread. I think Del and a few other tech pro’s here are the best in the world! Their advice is prime!

Take care,

Rick

I wouldn't say it is a rare practise. It is not a secret held among the piano tech illuminati. It really is part of the voicing and re-calibrating of weight after an action job (changing hammers, shanks, etc). And like all aspects of voicing, should be well diagnosed/tested before going gangbusters on it.

Many a tech started out with the Reblitz book and that is a great thing.
But lets say I pull out the manual to rebuild a Chevrolet..... it's still not going to be the same result as having an experienced mechanic whose done many Chev restorations. Can't blame the manual. It's trade experience picked up over the years of apprenticing and practise.

It was a lot more common “back in the old days” when some manufacturers did this on their own.

There was a time when piano makers went to great pains to reduce the mass of the treble hammers and hammershanks. It is not uncommon to see very thin hammershanks, very thin and lightweight hammer moldings and hammers using a minimum felt through roughly the upper third of the scale. It was part of what gave—as John points out—both the grands and verticals of the early 20th century their beautifully bright and clear voice up in the treble area in spite of relatively poor scaling and soundboard design.

With the advent and popularity of the rock hard piano voice that reigned supreme from the late 1960s and 1970s until fairly recently few could be bothered with the practice. Subtlety of tone was not always a high priority of the modern piano makers; subtlety takes time and effort and it was found that if you make the hammers big enough and hard enough you could create a lot of noise far more easily. And lots of noise sold lots of pianos.

If the piano owner ended up not liking all that strident noise he/she could always ask the piano technician to “voice it down.” About the only technique available to the average piano technician in the average home was needling the hammers down to get rid of the worst of that harsh, strident sound. Unfortunately, this still left the excessive mass which then accentuated the hammer knock sound as all that mass impacted the strings just a very short distance from the capo tastro bar. (Most of the percussive hammer knock sound comes from high frequency, chaotic vibrations in the capo tastro bar and the hammer and hammershank.)

An increasingly competitive marketplace is gradually forcing at least a few makers to take another look at what might be done to actually improve piano tone. Occasionally that look includes the upper tenor and treble where it is gradually being understood that harsh and strident power is not really all that pleasant to listen to. So we're gradually reinventing some of the techniques that our forebears had worked out all on their own.

The aftermarket hammershanks now furnished by Renner to the US market are nicely thinned in the upper treble sections. As are those made by Tokiwa. And, of course, there are the carbon fiber tubes used by WN&G in their hammershanks which are about as light as it gets. As well, hammermakers such as Ronsen will happily make hammers of reduced mass for us and even the mass of these can be further reduced by trimming the sides appropriately.

ddf

Rick,

I don't think the Tokai is as denigrated as you seem to think. Older versions of the Piano Buyer's Guide (if I remember correctly) considered it to be a competent instrument. I haven't personally played one, but from what I could see on a you-tube, it seemed Ok to me. If you really enjoy playing it and it doesn't limit you, then by all means keep it. If you think it limits your enjoyment, ability, or learning, then who cares about a truck?

Since Monica didn't respond to your request for counseling, consider the following. Perhaps the decision for you would be easier if you went piano shopping (always fun) and truck shopping. Then when you find that perfect piano and that perfect truck, you might find it easier to make a decision between the two specific items. I'm guessing you'll make the right choice.

Cheers,

Hop

Of course, he'll buy a cheap old truck in which he can haul his expensive new piano. What other choice could one make?

ddf

It's so obvious I didn't see it! Hope it comes with a shotgun rack (on the truck? on the piano?)

Hop

You might be a red-neck if… your piano has a gun rack mounted on the desk top! (Which I don’t…)

By-the-way, I already have a nice pick-up-truck, (minus the gun rack) and my piano… well, let’s just say it’s a love/hate relationship (mostly love)!

I still think I need the psychological counseling!

Take care,

Rick

Del,

It's a feast of information to read. You're right about the delicacy need in the upper tenor and treble.

In fact we are not rich enough to have different pianos to fit different music, ambiance. A powerful Steinway or Grotrian is not as good in a small room as a Bechstein or French Gaveau vintage whose delicate treble is sublime, heavenly; vice-versa a delicate, noble sound would sound pathetic, weak, thin in a big auditorium.

The piano also sounds different in big showroom than in our smaller house, a good treble there would sound thick at home...

Now maybe I found the more appropriate vocabulary to ask my technician to voice my trebles, I will ask him to make them "more delicate", a little sweeter; instead of using words such as "thinner"... which would give a negative feeling.