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A few thoughts on the messages above:

Another fine Audio Technica mic is the AT4022 which is very well suited to recording piano. Had I not decided on the Earthworks TC20s, the AT4022s would have been my next choice.

One of the nice features of the Korg MR-1000 is its ultra-high quality preamp. It also has phantom power and does mixing on board. The controls are super-easy to operate during recording sessions too. Unfortunately I don't use the new DSD recording format. The reason is that I post my recordings on the Internet, which are required to all be in MP3 format (to save hosting server space). There is no known format conversion program that can convert DSD directly to MP3. (Most conversion software has never heard of DSD.) Korg's own AudioGate software can indeed convert DSD to WAV, which in turn is convertible to MP3. But that's two steps. So to be more efficient I use the WAV format option on the Korg, then simply do a one-step conversion to MP3. If one were simply going to record for one's own pleasure without having to worry about format conversions, then DSD format would be the way to go. It's a wonderful sound.

A further observation on recording: Jazz and pops music can be recorded "close in", with mics inside the piano or right at the rim, as those pianists value the percussive sound of hammers on the strings, or music in the making. For that reason X/Y mic configuration is very commonly used as a close-in approach.

Classical music cannot be music in the making. Rather, it has to have a blended, polished, finished sound captured after the music has escaped from the piano and into the room. That's why for classical, A-B mic configuration is generally preferred with mics being placed four to eight feet out in front of the piano rim. (Desire for more more bass or treble is met by moving the parallel mics together (preseving separation) right toward the grand's tail, or left toward the line of the hammers. X/Y will not work as well, because beyond a distance of three feet from the piano, sight with your eye where the crossed mics are aimed. One will be overshooting the keyboard with its companion overshooting the tail of the grand, as most home music room grands are less than seven feet long. This is never an issue with parallel mics in A-B setup. In tandem, for classical, omni-directional mics produce a richer sound than cardioid mics, which are drier in sound.

Finally, small-diaphragm condenser mics have a distinct practical advantage over large diaphragm mics. That is, unlike any other musical instrument, the piano has the widest scale and myriads of overtones along with the fundamental tones. Small-diaphragms can move extremely rapidly to meet the demands for such complex capture, whereas the large diaphragms (wonderful for voice, violin, flute, guitar, etc.) cannot move as rapidly to cope with the pianos output.

I am seeing a lot of Condenser suggestions, I might actually suggest a ribbon mic. I'm currently using a pair of BLUE Woodpeckers, which have a bit more of a hyped upper end for a ribbon mic, but generally ribbons are less peaky than condensers and I could see many different ribbon mics sounding very nice on piano.

Ribbon mics as well as the Earthworks PianoMic System by design are placed inside the piano. So these are great for pops and jazz, but unsuitable for classical piano which requires distance between the piano and mics to achieve a fully finished and blended sound. The Earthworks TC small diaphragm condenser mic series is designed to record loud instruments, affords very tall headroom, and can easily take in stride with no clipping any peak thrown at them by a large, powerful grand piano.

Yeah, the 4051's aren't too shabby. I have a stereo pair of the older 4051a and not the newer better 4051b's. Both have excellent SNR characteristics. Also, I think you meant SDC instead of LDC; the 4051's are small diaphragm.

Incidentally, I just put up a recording made with Studio Projects mics on the EBVT III thread on the technician's forum. Nick Mauel (from Nick's Piano) did the special EBVT III tuning on my Hailun HG-218 piano a few weeks ago which sounded really really good.

Recordings were done with Studio Projects B1 and B3 mics in an AB configuration. The B1 was on the bass strings and B3 (in omni mode) on the treble strings (omni to tone down the brightness and not get too much of a proximity affect, and also to get a little room sound). My signal chain was the following:

Presonus MP20 preamp
FMR RNC (very very slight compression in "Super Nice" mode)
Edirol R-09HR (in 24bit-88kHz)

RecordingWithStudioProjects

Regards,
Ryan

......

Ryan,

I've finally had the chance to listen to all the recordings in this thread (great resource by the way!), and really prefer the sound of your Watermark recording - that's exactly what I would want to go for. Of course, it's hard to isolate the mics, as it could be a combination of the Hailun, the tuning, the signal chain, the room etc.

Some questions, if you don't mind too much: How much work is the mastering process with the B1/B3 combination? And how do you mix these 2 different mics in different modes anyway, just stereo with some crossover? If you were to record a piece mostly in the pp-p range, and then another with some big ff chords, would you change a lot in the setup? Any problems with using the A/B setup in a rather small ~220sq ft living room?

Thanks in advance!
Bunneh

Here is another example with the Avenson STO-2's in a slightly different position.

"Il Postino" http://www.box.net/shared/s4jke70s5l

Thanks Bunneh for your kind remarks.

Actually, I have to give some credit to grandpianoman since the right and left channels required flipping for the sound that I wanted (which was to make it sound like what a pianist would hear). He did that as well as normalized the track to bring the volume up a little (something I had failed to do). So kudos to him!

Mastering the work was pretty minimal. I brought the track into Sonar 6. I added ~1 dB of shelving EQ on the high-end at about 13kHz (to compensate for the SPs which are a little dark on the high end). And I added just a touch of Lexicon reverb (about 4%), I don't remember the exact settings though - started with a hall program, where I played around with the RT 60 (or reverb time) settings until it sounded right. I then exported it to CD quality 44.1kHz/16bit (with Pow-R dithering to compensate for loss of dynamic range). Finally I converted to MP3 with winLAME (free software) before publishing.


There are definitely some caveats though to the AB recording. For reference I played back the recording in mono and it sounds horrible because of phase issues of the mics. This is always a cause for concern for AB recording but if you never plan on putting it on AM radio or another mono medium it shouldn't be too much concern. This is where an XY or MS technique works much better (at the expense of less stereo feel).

As for recording in a small space? 220 sq-ft isn't tiny but you really also want to consider the shortest length(that is almost always the ceiling) and the total cubic volume. Small spaces are always a challenge because you will have a large number of peaks and dips in the frequency response due to standing waves, which are especially apparent in the low-end (technically speaking each parallel wall may act as what's called a comb-filter and contribute to peaking and dipping across the frequency spectrum). Basically, it may end up sounding like you are recording in a box. I just started treating my project studio because it is similarly small in size. Recording engineers are quick to point out that the room is the most important part of the signal path to optimize. If you think this may be a problem I can forward you some info on room correction strategies. The HG-218 OTOH, is in our living room that is about 400 sq-ft with a 16 ft vaulted ceiling (which is wonderful for recording).

But regarding the mics. Your best bet is probably a stereo matched pair of cardioid mics and to close-mic the source (while avoiding too much proximity affect). The idea being to eliminate as much of the room as possible by close-micing. Additionally you will want mics that can respond to high SPLs - so a pair of LDC would be absolutely appropriate. Studio Projects B1s or pair of Rode NT1a/NT1000 would be on my short list.

As far as recording pp-p then on to another at ff. In 2 separate pieces this is not a big a problem, you will just want to ensure that your gain staging is appropriate for each song. "Gain staging" is the art of setting every component so that the peak of the song comes just under the limits of dynamic range for each device. But, if a single song has this amount of dynamic range then I definitely recommend a quality compressor (FMR RNC is inexpensive but very good). I have to warn though, proper compression is probably the most difficult thing to get right so simpler to use devices such as a Presonus Comp 16 on the low-end or a Universal Audio LA-2 on the high-end is recommended for non-engineer types.

Sorry for the long response, a lot of interesting subjects. If you are really serious about getting a quality recording, you might want to check any local studios to see if they offer a recording class. I did that myself at a fantastic studio called Celebration Sound in Rhode Island about 8 years ago (apparently they just won a 2nd grammy! www.celebrationsound.com).

Regards,
Ryan

I've used inexpensive stereo Audio Technica at825 mics for years with pretty good results... I have 2 of them and still use them occasionally for dual-piano recordings. The current version is the model at4025 which is somewhat quieter. The baby grand pieces in this old thread were recorded with the at825... Baby Grands

Optimal distance to avoid proximity effects with this mic is about 12 to 14 inches.

My current prime setup for stage piano recording is a dpa 3521 stereo kit. It uses a pair of 4021 compacts which are essentially 4011 capsules squeezed into an inch-high case. The small form factor makes the mics almost invisible on stage and permits more height to position directly over the strings without hitting the lid. Here's a thread with some recordings made in a piano store with that setup: Steingraeber 130 upright

For recordings at home where I have more control I tend to go a different route. I like mid-side (M/S) recording. My fav is a U87 in figure-8 together with an Earthworks QTC40 for the mid. This was recorded that way: Peter Gink

Howard

I found these interesting sites on the AKG website. One of the microphones that AKG recommends (C 516 ML) would cost about $380/pair. The C 535 EB would cost about $600/pair. I think I have the three references in the order they have been generated on the AKG website (i.e., oldest to newest).

Recording grand/upright piano

Recording Classical Piano Music

Miking the Grand Piano

Best regards,

p.s., I don't know anything about this subject. I just did a bit of exploring to learn something, taking off from Del's post on the first page.

I've been assembling some more pieces on the EBVT III thread. Here's another example recorded with my Studio Projects B1/B3. Same exact configuration as before.

Discovery-StudioProjectsB1&B3

Regards,
Ryan

Really nice sound Ryan, and I like your composition...in EBVT III, it's very beautiful.

I posted this over in the EBVT III thread, and thought it would be good to post it here as another example of the Avenson STO-2 mics.

From the movie "Sabrina" music by John Williams, p/b B. Pezzone on the LX, in EBVT III http://www.box.net/shared/z4asx6zm1j

Ryan,
thanks again for your help!

So your recommendation would be not to go with a B3 in Omni because capturing much of the room sound is in my case not desirable?

Then I suppose the first thing to try for me would be dual B1s in A/B configuration. I'll probably also go with the suggestion in another blog to open the lid to 1/4 and then have the mics just outside the piano. Guess I'll have to wait and see if that works out, of course.

Also, your 2nd recording sounds as lovely as the first! However, it has slightly too much stereo separation with headphones for my tastes. It makes me a bit dizzy and irritated... Would that be hard to fix, since you mentioned true mono would be an issue in an A/B setting?

Thanks and regards
Bunneh

Yup, I would go for a matched set of cardiods. Although if you bought a switchable cardiod/figure 8/omni, you could try to do mid-side recording as well. MS also has the advantage that you can mix in how much stereo affect your after. However that takes either a special preamp (True Precision made one that had built in MS mixing) or software to mix the MS signals.

Glad you liked my second song. Yeah I am not as happy with this recording regarding the stereo sound either, I burned it to CD and played it on my stereo and I didn't think it translated there as well at all. I may play with the phase of the signals and repost if I can make it sound more natural.

Regards,
Ryan

I second the recommendation for ribbon mics. The Beyer m-160s are, in my opinion, some of the unsung heroes in this category. While they still may be too quiet for the distance you may need with a classical recording, I wouldn't rule them out either because of the unusual fact that they are cardioid and not bi-directional like almost all other ribbons. This can help to focus them from a distance.

Because of their low sensitivity, they also seem to help with bleed. A single one near the tail might do well for your needs (I think I read that this was a classical recording?)

In any case, there are also a pair of articles on my website which you may find helpful:
Recording the Grand Piano
Recording the Upright Piano

Best of luck, Nathan

Back when I was trying to decide how to record my piano at home I did a bunch of test recordings with different mics. I snipped down these recordings of a Joseph Lamb piece from that session so hopefully the detail could be preserved in a high-res mp3 yet be small enough for PianoWorld's picture uploader size limits:

Alaskan Rag, AT825 Stereo Mic
Alaskan Rag, dual Neumann u87 xy Cardioid
Alaskan Rag, dual Neumann U87 mid-side

A bit later, I did some more test recordings to refine my mid-side technique. Below is a snippet of a piano passage from Laura Nyro's piece, Map To The Treasure:

Map, Neumann u87-mid + AEA R92 Ribbon-side
Map, Neumann u87-side + EarthWorks qtc40-mid

I liked the ribbon for the slower passages but I thought it seemed to lose detail and smoothness as the tempo picked up. More recently, I took the u87/qtc40 ms recording above and tried applying different delay and ambiance processing to the mid and side signals before decoding them in an effort to achieve a little more depth:

Map, 3D

... although I'm not sure how possible it really is to pull off a 3D effect in a stereo mp3.

Howard

Pretty nice, hv--- as far as it goes. So, where's "Upstairs by a Chinese Lamp"?

Ha, ha. The wife hasn't learned that one. Yet. But Sue picked up on Nyro's Map arrangement at the Bottom Line concert that borrowed a little of it. Whole piece, btw, complete with Sue's vocal and cat is on YouTube. Same piano but done with the dpa's.

Howard

I've mentioned above that I found Ryan's recording of Watermark pretty great, but had an issue with the very large stereo separation while using headphones.

So I've gone ahead and applied a cheap trick, adding the right channel at -10db to the left and vice versa. The resulting recording does, to my untrained ear, sound much nicer over headphones. I've heard that some headphone amps do this stereo crossfade in the circuitry, that's where the idea is from...

Here is the modified version:
http://www.box.net/shared/zognqggheq

and Ryan's original:
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B6...00MTU2LTk4M2QtMmZjMTgwMTE3NjE3&hl=en

What does everyone think? Is this a dangerous process that costs audio quality for some reason? Apart from the obvious mixing and re-compressing of 16bit MP3s of course.

And I hope this was okay with you Ryan!

Listened to that modified Watermark recording with some earbuds (didn't have access to my Grados) and it sounded great. Thanks for posting!

Scott