Hi everyone,

I am pianist seeking for the DP as a second piano for the home.
Reading this forum , I was 100% sure that Roland HP-307 is "amazing, beautiful" etc.

Dear members, I've had an excellent opportunity to test this "masterpiece" for more than 3h.

First impression - awful keyboard- hollow, limp, noninformative. I said - stop, it is impossible, this is Roland HP-307!!! After second hour of testing and adjusting almost all parameters, nothing has changed!
If that is "top model" I am afraid asking you - what is the low-end model of Roland?

After all, I totally agree, that all "new technology, Supernatural etc, etc" just the number of "whistles and bells".

As of Kawai (they have CA-18 only), it definetly have much more realistic keyboard, than "supernatural piano".

Dear members, please, could you explain, how is it possible to compare real piano touch with recorded HI-FI stereo in Roland? It is understandable for kids, but not for pianists.

Apart from that, the Roland has the noisiest keyboard among others!

Finally, ordered Kawai СA 63.

Thank you and apologize for bad English.

For every person who does not like Roland and buys a Kawai there is also one who hates the Kawai and buys a Roland, Or a Yamaha. It's good I guess that there are so many brands

Of course, however I have no special emotion like hating towards Roland or Kawai or Yamaha. I have interested only one point- how is it possible for pianist to ignore the touch and quality of keyboard or put it on the same scale with New technology or good stereo system?
It is a pitty, we are often follow the advertising.

Chris is right...not everyone finds Roland appealing and there are many who do not like Kawai...then, there are the enthusiastic Yamaha fans.

Personally, having played the HP-307, I was quite impressed with the instrument, especially the action to sound response...the action itself was very pleasant, and considering I have a Steinway B, a very accurate representation of an acoustic piano's action.

I still found the mid-range a teensy bit synthetic, but far better than the V-Piano, and the top and bottom ranges were exceptional.

Certainly it would be a piano I would heartily recommend.

Snazzy

Did you listen through good headphones, or through the built-in speakers? Did you try the various piano presets?

You also might want to do a factory reset before testing a DP - you never know what kind of state it's been left in by previous users.

It's likely your expectations were too high, these are DPs after all.

Rus73, great choice! I have the CA63 now for 4 months, and love it. But as Chris and Snazzy already said, it's great that there are different keyboard actions and sounds in different DPs because we all have individual requirements and preferences.

My theory is that every DP has specific aspects of a grand piano action that it can emulate exceptionally well. Depending of what aspect is important for you, you choose the action that has its strength in this area... Does this make any sense?

Same for sound production...

I hope you've tested the CA63 before you ordered it because the key action is slightly different than CA18 (stronger which is better in my opinion, also the sound is improved). This is an investment that should be taken with care.

I'm not sure I understood you correctly. "Supernatural piano" is not a keyboard.
Are you disappointed about keyboard, sound, or both in HP307?

Well everyones ear is different. I bought the 307 because I found it to have the richest sound through its speakers in my price range. I does have a very noisy and cheap sounding key action when you turn the volume down, it sounds like a cheap toy really.

Make no mistake, whether you look at the roland, yamaha or kawai or whatever it is VERY OBVIOUS they are digital and not acoustic, I can hear it instantly. I am keeping my Roland though because its so convenient to turn the volume down at night when practicing and I will definately buy an acoustic because there is no comparison. My teacher has an acoustic and its day and night to an attentive person.

About keyboard of course. I agree that the keyboard is the most important part of any DP - the sound we will be able to improove with Pianoteq or any other software.I have Hi-End stereo system, and I understand that it is brillaint quality of sound, much better than Roland's sound. But, again, who we are? Pianists or listeners of stereo system? I realize, that any DP consists of keyboard plus 2-3-4 microchips. Thats all. So, when we are very impressed with sound it means that we impressed with microchips. Finally, I agree that keyboard actions is not 50% of quality of DP, it is 90-95% and the only valuable part of the piano.
Thank you.

Now it is more whats inside of the chips, what counts: Samples,Algorithms and software.
You also wouldnt judge about the value of a book by examining the quality or value of the paper? ;-)

I have now played the PHA-III keyboard from Roland next to the RM3 keyboard from Kawai (which Rus73 has apparently purchased without even having auditioned once ) and I can say that both are excellent digital piano keyboards.

The PHA-III from Roland is in my view superior due to more dense sensor coverage, the ability to perform faster repetition, the fact that it more accurately represents a grand piano keyboard with escapement rather than an upright as the Kawai and due to its subjective feel which is like slicing a knife through soft butter. The PHA-II keyboard really invites you to want to play.

Add to that the improved controllability of the Roland (the Kawai is sometimes like playing at knifes edge with irregular and unrealistic step jumps in dynamics), the much better ability to articulate and the more natural and pleasing to the ears Supernatural piano piano sound with nice, long, organic sounding sustain and sympathetic resonance, and there is not really a fair competition between Roland and Kawai.

Where the Roland really shines is when being played side by side next to the Kawai CA63.

One hour ago I made the same decision of ordering Kawai CA63 without ever trying it. Yes, it's scary and could turn out as a big mistake but I have taken the risk anyway. I have tested HP-305 (unfortunately not HP-307 which has better keyboard) and was utterly disappointed with it. Keyboard felt to me the same as my ex-RD-700SX or maybe very slightly firmer and probably better but still nothing too close to real piano. And the sound is the same thin, metallic and over-processed sound as in RD-700SX. To be honest I don't think the cheap trick with the random filtering which causes it to sound non-looped and non-layered is anything more than geeky stuff to pass the dewster test. I even liked the CLP-340 better - both for sound and keyboard! Finally, I tried Kawai MP5 and CL35 and think these were even better! This makes me feel CA63 shouldn't be worse. And yes, again, to go on-topic - I am also very disappointed in the new Roland digital pianos and those cheap marketing tricks.

I disagree. When you read the book -you are reader, the most valuable for you is information, but for pianist the real touch and quality of keyboard is more important, meaning that you can do everything you want with the sound having small laptop only.

Haha. Looks like your already biased view of the KAWAI now really becomes reality for you...

But you're right, this is not really a fair competition...
Not one word about any aspect the KAWAI might have its strenghts, in every little aspect Roland is better according to you. That's what I call a real objective review.

Anyway, it shows that our key and sound tastes vary significantly. And, although not that extreme as you prefer the Roland, I prefer the CA63, especially for the keyboard action.

.... is that the reason you joined the forum ?

.... to bad-mouth Roland products !

@Cybergene, when is the CA63 expected to be delivered? I am eagerly waiting for your review and first experiences!

Unlike you, Kawaian, prior to making up my mind and committing to any brand I have spent countless hours researching and auditioning the pianos side by side.

Because I didn't come to the same judgement that you did (without having done a similarly careful and complete side-by-side shopping process) then your conclusion is that my evaluation is not objective. Charming.

I find it fascinating that almost all of the Kawai purchasers here either purchased their piano without having even tried the specific model they ordered or having tried the RM3 keyboard, let alone audition it carefully side-by-side against other brands with the same headphones in the same session in comparison to the Roland, Yamaha and/or Casio or other offerings.

Interestingly enough, many of the Roland purchasers have been those that have been rather obsessive compulsive about doing a more than thorough job of comparison shopping and auditioning.

I own a Kawai acoustic grand piano and have been quite up front about the fact that I too am biased towards Kawai products. However, to date, when I play them all side by side (although admittedly I have not been able to convince a dealer to take a risk buying a CA93 to try which they seem to believe is an unsellable model) Kawai does not come out on top.

How do you know? I have a store here in Munich where I can test drive all major brands and their models in my price range (~2.000 Euro). I have tested them all several times, I would say that's sufficient to make a well thought decision. Although I have to admit that I was a rookie regarding DPs when I started my research back in November 2009. Anyway, I don't have time to compare "countless" hours prior to a purchase decision. I would rather like to play at home with my preferred DP (or even better: acoustic).



That's not what I said. It's just, well, astonishing, that there are only positive aspects of the Roland versus absolutely no positive aspects of the Kawai. From my posts you should know that there are several aspects of the CA63 that I don't like, and I am very open about that. I expect this more differentiated review from others too, especially from someone who has tested countless hours.



Thanks. That's also a very charming way to disqualify the majority of Kawai owners as idiots who buy without any reasonable comparison (your assumption might be: otherwise they wouldn't have bought a Kawai) in contrary to the wise Roland owners who were very careful in their purchase decision. Thanks again!

This reminds me of an Atari vs. Amiga war in the 80s, and the Windows vs. MAC or vs Linux war in several forums (in ancient times...). We should all avoid this in this forum under all circumstances, it does not help anyone who is in need of a purchase recommendation.

Rus73, you are wrong.
If you have big practices, you must understand differences between DP keyboard not such various as between acoustic piano keyboard. And feeling of acoustic keyboard will different from DP in any cases.
[Я тоже никогда не встречал адекватной клавиатуры - ни от каваи, ни от роланда, хотя играл на самых разных роялях/пианино]

I wanted a black satin version but they told me I should wait about a month for it that's why I decided on the dark rosewood which should be here in a week or two. Both are looking great on web.

Well, I tried the 2, hp307 and CA63. I am not totally convinced by the CA63. The touch is a bit too firm in my opinion, and I agree that the sound response to touch is not convincing, at least with default setting and that hp307 does better in this aspect.

But regarding all other aspects, the ca63 is superior. It sounds much like a real piano, especially if you set bass boost. There are vibrations in the keys and pedals that are very realistic. The touch is less "on/off" than with the roland. The key noise is far less perceptible than with the roland.

In my opinion the touch could be better if they had put weights in the front of the keys, like in a real piano, to counterbalance the increased hammer weight (it seems they have used such a system but only for bass keys where the hammers are the heavier).

I wouldn't mind betting that what you describe as "cheap marketing tricks" other manufacturers would give their right arms for right now. I fully accept there are many people that don't relate to the Roland product for any number of reasons. But I think any intelligent observer would agree it is technically the most advanced hardware DP currently available by quite some margin.

Steve

I thought the HP-307 was equivalent to the Yamaha CP-1 stage piano in terms of playability/sound/action, the advantage (or disadvantage) of having ungraded keys being up to the individual, and the piano's intended use.

In regards to "home" instruments, I agree the HP-307 has the edge in terms of cabinet pianos, with the exception of the Yamaha Avant Grand, and that's putting it in great company.

Kawai seems to have it's dedicated and sometimes, rather aggressive enthusiastic followers, and that's fine, but there is no denying the technical superiority of the HP-307 when compared to Kawai, Yamaha, and Korg cabinet style digitals.

To ignore such a fact, would be rather short-sighted, in my opinion...enthusiuasim/devotion or not.

That's not to say the pecking order won't change with the introduction of Yamaha's new CLP-series, but we'll have to wait and see.

Snazzy

BTW...I'm kind of a Yamaha fan, but I don't mind giving credit, where credit is due.

Kawai seems to have it's dedicated and sometimes, rather aggressive enthusiastic followers, and that's fine, but there is no denying the technical superiority of the HP-307 when compared to Kawai, Yamaha, and Korg cabinet style digitals.

[/quote]


Please, lets try to be more objective. As for me: I am not agressive or enthusiastic follower of Kawai. Moreover, I have NEVER played DP before and was 100% agree, that Roland is the best (after reading advertising and some of the posts here). However, after testing both (today I spent 2h. with Kawai CA 63) I am as a professional pianist MUST tell you, dear Rolandian, that Kawai is much more suitable in term of real piano. The keyboard, touch and sound is much more piano-like.

At the same time, Roland have done very good job. HP-307 is a very good synthesizer, but, please, do not put very good synthesizer close to the real piano.

Thank you.

In this video they compare the lame stock RD-700GX piano to the new SuperNATURAL piano, the difference to my ears anyway is night and day:



The stock piano sounds like it's inside a cardboard box. And if I've heard bass loops buzzing against each other like some kind of unholy vibrato once, I've heard it a kabillion times. The only thing I am a bit wary of in the SN sound (so far with my limited exposure to it via videos & DPBSD MP3s) is the "frictiony" sound of the mids during the attack - it sounds a little like there is sandpaper in the keys or something.


If the SN process were as simple as random filtering we would have had recording quality DPs decades ago. No, my conjecture is that it is a true marriage of samples and modeling. We may all be hating the sound a few months from now (ala the incredibly short honeymoon of the CP1/5/50) but no one can say it's merely a cheap trick or marketing gimmick. There's serious engineering going on in there.

Ha! Snazzy's new name...Rolandian!

Snazzy's right and the next Yamahas may raise the bar again...and we will all be the beneficiaries in the long run. It's right to give credit where it's due.

If I can persuade any Avant Grand owners out there that the HP-307 is a better piano, I would reluctantly swap with you! Cash my way of course!

Cheers,

Steve

Totally objective, I am, being a professional as well (45 years), and not someone just learning to play, or just new around digital pianos.

You must see that your opinion is just that; your opinion. Valid for you, but unfortunately, my opinion differs from it greatly.

If you are happy with a Kawai, that's peachy, but, many of us would not be...the HP-307 is not a synthesizer...any pro would know that much...it is a lovely digital home piano, which, for the time being, is technologically superior (my opinion) to the Kawai, Yamaha, and Korg cabinet style digital pianos.

So, let us agree to disagree.

Thank you,

Snazzy

I guess it's time to snap you again...

Being a wise, old man with lots of experience doesn't make you automatically objective...



Huh? What's going on here? Snazzy is talking about technology?? I thought it's all about playability, expressiveness and if you like the sound signature... I'm confused...

Have a great day!

Well, son, being a wise old man doesn't automatically make me "objective", although I am that and more...no, being a wise old man just makes me smarter than you...plus, I'm far more handsome, wealthier, and most of all, more modest.

Now, don't let all that technology talk fool ya, son...it's just the practical application of science to achieve a more efficient (playability) and superior (expressive) product...Roland is ahead in cabinet style digitals for now...maybe Kawai, Yamaha and Korg will catch up...sure makes things interestin'...don't it?

Snazzy

whoever the original poster is I dont agree with at all, most people would not too! Go somewhere else and rant and moan about it.

No point coming on here to rant and bad mouth something you clearly do not agree with. Its actually a very nice DP with a very good PHA III keyboard.

Well, daddy, it would make things interesting if I had the money to buy a new DP each and every year...

You shoulda stayed in school and left all those wimmen alone...then you'd have money.

Snazzy

Ahem... Who again said that Kawai people are mostly agressive enthusiastic about their DPs whereas Roland people aren't?

Too late... Already married with three kids!

There's your problem...bein' handsome, talented (and modest) such as I am, I only hitched up with the gals with money, and no kids.

Snazzy

Dear Snazzy (if you do not like Rolandian).

I am happy that we both have different opinions. However, I am not talking about your or my opinions. Please, as a handsome, wise, and extremely old pianist, could you be a little bit more carefull when claiming that all of us who prefer Kawai are the very specific, odd and enthusiastic members of clandestine group.
As you remember, I've never said, that you or other victims of effective advertizing are idiots or illegal activists :

You're so smart!

And I love my wife and my kids!!

whoever mwf is,

it is very good that we have different opinions. Only one point- please, never tell, as Rolandian, that all of us, who made a choice for Kawai are members of odd enthusiastic group.
Thats all.

Thanks for noticing.




I loved all my wives...remember, you is only as old as the woman you feel...

Snazzy

This sounds like some kind of threat from the Russian mafia. What, are you going to break our legs if we don't agree with your personal choice of fake electronic piano in an faux-woodgrain Ikea-like case?

Rus73 ...... first off, I must have missed the thread where someone said that
DP's or (Rolands in particular) are better or as good as acoustics.

99.9% of the people on this forum know that a DP can not match an acoustic.

You chose Kawai .... good instruments.

No need to come on here making Rolands sound like a piece of junk.

@theJourney, please don't go this direction. That's defamatory and almost racist.

This sounds like some kind of threat from the Russian mafia. What, are you going to break our legs if we don't agree with your personal choice of fake electronic piano in an faux-woodgrain Ikea-like case? [/quote]

HA!! That is very good brand new classification for those, who dislike Roland - "Russian mafiosi". You fogot Mucci as German mafiosi or CyberGene as a Bulgarian mafiosi etc.

In general, I have already noticed where is the difference in keyboards between Roland and Kawai. The keyboard of Roland is much more hollow, digital-like and noisy. It is not only my opinion. It is opinion of all mafiosi around the world!

Some of my best friends own Swedish furniture.

Well, Rus...you can call me Snazzy, and you can call me Pete, or you can call me Peter, or you can call me Snazzyplayer...but it just don't make sense to call me Rolandian...I don't call you Ruskawai, or Kawairus.

If you prefer a Kawai digital, son, that's fine...and, I certainly don't think (or have said) you are a member of any clandestine group...it is very impolite of you to misquote me.

So, now I can say you are impolite, and a member of an enthusiastic group...and I'd be right.

As far as your opinion of Roland pianos? Well, you are entitled to it, like we all are...but, it doesn't make Roland a bad piano because you say it is...it just means that it is a bad piano to you....to many of us, it is not.

Snazzy

Chaps, let's look at this objectively:

(in no particular order)

Roland make great instruments.
Kawai make great instruments.
Yamaha make great instruments.

/thread

But, but, but, you dinna get the order right! Heh Heh.

I agree, all of them make instruments...
That is genereal consensus

[/quote]

Well, Rus...you can call me Snazzy, and you can call me Pete, or you can call me Peter, or you can call me Snazzyplayer...but it just don't make sense to call me Rolandian...I don't call you Ruskawai, or Kawairus.


[/quote]

Ok, I prefer call you Daddy (I am proud to be your son, Daddy, where have your been for all my life? Where is my alimony?).

About Roland:

Daddy, lets try to do the simple test.Turn off the volume in both Kawai and Roland and try to play both. Then go for real piano and compare. Which one keyboard closer to real piano?

Thats all. Nothing to discuss. However, I've told, that Roland is very good digital device, and many of users prefer good digital devices - it is normal, Daddy.
Thanks.

Let's do yet another test: prevent the hammers from striking the strings in an acoustic piano next to your above no volume test and tell us which of the three was most enjoyable to play. Let us know the results. Be honest.

I'm sure it'll be (most of) the acoustic uprights / grands. I ALWAYS prefer playing on a decent real acoustic instrument, except

- when it's out of tune
- when it's one the cheap budget instruments built for beginners that have no idea of how a good acoustic instrument can sound

It's amazing though how many instruments in homes belong to these two categories.

And here's my statement regarding DP brands:

Currently I prefer my CA63, for budget and playability reasons.
BUT I would also be more than happy if I had a good Roland or Yamaha stage piano / DP at home, like HP-307, CLP-380 (which is a great instrument) and others. They are all more than satisfactory to me. At our church I'm playing (among others) on a very old CLP-950, and you know what: It sounds great through the amplifying system. What I couldn't stand would be a non-weighted syntheziser keyboard, but that's a completely different category.

At some point people have to decide what to purchase. I wouldn't buy anything without trying the major brands first, because then I would always wonder if I really made the right purchase that really fits me. On the other side I would never take "countless hours" to try for months, even years without deciding - this simply doesn't make any sense to me: Am I a professional tester of am I a hobby piano player that just needs a good enough / decent instrument to enjoy?

Well, then it's best to call me Peter? I'll be Big Peter, and you can be Little Peter (how appropriate).

Now, Little Peter, you behave, or Big Peter will take you over his knee, and give Little Peter a spanking, and he won't be able to sit and play his little toy piano.

Compare Roland and Kawai digitals to my Steinway B?

How utterly droll! You can't compare apples and watermelons...what dark basement have you been living in?

That's it, Little Peter...you are disowned....I can't abide having a son with the brain of a mushroom.

Snazzy

Hey daddy, you're up early! I hope I still can call you daddy... It seems like your own son can easily put you into rage, and certainly I wouldn't like to do so...

Well, your simple presence on and repeated contributions to this rather odd forum makes this a valid question. After all, pianoworld is all about talking about pianos. If you want to play them, you are much better off logging out and doing so.

Rage? Certainly not, son, I am a happy and content man, and I have the power of music to keep me that way.

One should not open a door, unless one is prepared to deal with what is behind it...is that not true?


Snazzy

mucci: 392 posts
theJourney: 2.420 posts
...

I love playing music, but I'm also having fun contributing my (not asked for) advice to others... I'm not always near my DP. I hope that's okay for you!

You're so right (whatever that means in this context).

Rus73 ..... seems you've joined this forum for no good reason.

First you bad-mouth a good compnay


Then you bad-mouth the players that use them


We do not have to agree on best brand names,
digital or acoustic.

But you should show more respect to your elders.

I say elders, because such jibberish would not come from someone who has lived life for awhile.

Yes I agree. To join a forum for the single purpose of slagging an instrument off seems very odd to me. I lurked around for ages, learning, understanding the views/preferences of others and the forum etiquette before daring to post!

James has summed it up...there are some great DPs out there and most of us are adult enough to appreciate the strengths of instruments that for any number of reasons we would not actually choose to own.

Steve

New HP307 videos from Roland, Yana Reznik performs Rachmaninoff and Granados.

http://www.rolandus.com/products/product...maninoff_hd.flv

http://www.rolandus.com/products/product...granados_hd.flv

Great pieces! Great performer. Great sound. Amazing.

Nice playing, but with a billion notes banging out all at once these are THE quintessential DP demo songs.

I love the way she scooches up from the bench and slams back down expressively on those chords. Sexy.

Good point. Which is why the demo song from mucci née Kawaian is actually not such a bad tester.

Don't rush into anything unnecessarily, particularly buying quickly depreciating and early obsoleting consumer electronics, especially if your other piano is an acoustic grand.

I have to: I don't have an acoustic piano at home, cause I only can play when my children are sleeping, except for weekends (like today!!).

Play away! And, consider yourself lucky that you can play when your children are sleeping.

Dannac,
First of all, as far as I remember, you are not a supermoderator of this forum (I hope it is impossible). If so, please, do not give me commands concerning my posts here.

Secondly, Dannac, you are neither my grandfather no my best friend or teacher. You have no legal rights to teach me.

Finally, if you would like to be a mentor, it is not your place. WE discuss pianos. You should type "forum for mentors" in google.

Don't feed the troll.

Now I've GOT to check out those demos . . . !

Dont know about hp307, but Yana was great! I thought 307 is very easy toy for her (and she prefer grand piano...;)

Exactly, she is very talanted pianist.

However, I think really great pianists like Rihter or Gilels (same level) will never play any sort of DP or take part on advertising.

I was trying to find any other video with professional pianists playing different pianos -Yamaha, Kawai, Roland. It would be useful to find their honest opinion (no advertisement).

Rus73, DP can not fully replace acoustic now, but distance between DP and AP shorten from year to year. DP and AP have different tasks and different market. And it is good idea for both AP and DP at home

Roland's top end isn't the HP 307, it's the V piano. Maybe you should try that.

Thank you, I will. I've heard about Avant Grand 3 also, however, do you know - I cannot even test it due to its price (local shops never buy expensive pianos, only prepaid).

Rus73 you can buy DP with money-back

Thanks, I've thinking about it, however in accordance with our low (do you remember?) - 2 weeks money back do not cover digital pianos.

Wow! That negates the value of buying from a store, doesn't it? The store gets a markup, but bears NO cost to make the sale? Ripoff!

BTW, where are you located?