Is the RD-700GXF exactly the same as the RD-700GX with RD-700GX1 SuperNATURAL Piano Kit installed?

I think so, but have learned to never assume where music technology is concerned . . . .

Thanks,

Lawrence

By all accounts I've read that seems to be the case. Last week I spoke with the keys guy at the local Guitar Center and that was his understanding too (FWIW).


When you ass-u-me, you make an ass out of u and me.

One of the worst supervisors I ever had took incredible glee introducing me to that, with a dry erase board involved and everything. Ugh...


On Topic:

1. Does anyone here think the PHA II in the GX is better or worse than the PHA III in the HP-307?

2. Are PHA II/III definite "things" or can they have options such as ivory feel and escapement either present or missing?

3. The GX has PHA II with ivory feel & escapement, and the HP-307 PHA III with ivory feel & escapement. Am I correct in assuming (oops!) that the difference between the II and the III is a note repetition sensor? Is this a big deal or not?

4. I believe the SN kit for the GX includes piano voices that are not in the HP line or any of the other SN products, true?

1. I like PHA II just as much, maybe even slightly more than, PHA III. Action in RD is quieter...a product of the construction, not the action no doubt but worth mentioning.

2. FP-7 has PHA II without escapement or ivory. I'm not aware of any PHA III without escapement or ivory.

3. Yes, there is an additional sensor on the PHA III and I feel a difference but it is very slight indeed and er, difficult to even describe. Maybe PHA III is slightly more percussive, tiny bit less damped feeling. Or I might be imagining that. The faster repetition the PHA III enables is real enough though...it is a very fast, agile action.

4. SN on the RD certainly provides more piano voices than HP-307...I can't comment about other SN equipped Rolands.

Steve

I'm working from memory here, but I believe there is one sample set in he HP-307, but three in the RD-700GX, so it would be natural to expect more piano voices in the RD. Somewhere, a patch list comparing the two was recently posted.

Thanks Steve!


So if someone offered you a choice of either, you would pick the PHA II because of the feel, correct? How big of a deal is the third PHA III sensor in your opinion?


Anything about the RD in particular that you don't like?

Well, the case/structure the action is in plays a part. I can tell you I would probably pick PHA II in the RD over the PHA III in the HP-307 - this choice based mainly on noise because to be fair I find both are a pleasure to play. It would be an impossible decision between the RD and the PHA III in the V-Piano for instance. I'm not at all bothered by the additional sensor but this would certainly become significant to someone with the technical ability to exploit it. I think though that there must be some pretty talented players out there quite satisfied with PHA II.

About the RD-SN and not liking anything...mmm...Nothing intrinsically wrong with the APs that can't be tweaked out by using the piano designer function...as I've said before I set the touch offset to something approaching heavy to ameliorate against the tendency for the tonality of the APs to transition to a harsh metallic twang in the upper midrange at velocities that I personally feel are too low. And, I would install a further piano voice with a completely different basic sound signature...I like what is on the RD but the voices are a bit samey...Grand Piano1 is a little different in my opinion to the others but still, cut from mainly the same cloth I guess. In terms of the SN EPs I find them noisy when played using default effects/simulations and again, the Rhodes voices are basically similar. That said, though I initially found the SN EPs to be disappointing they have grown on me and they are very tweakable. There is no SN DX EP and the Yamaha Electric Grand (non-SN) emulation is ghastly. Don't ask me about clavs or organs...I never use these sounds at all so don't feel it would be right to comment.

But I do see the above as fairly minor gripes to be honest, it is a very versatile and rounded product. It is nice to finally find a hardware stage piano that really can hold its head up against a decent sample library.

Cheers,

Steve

It would be interesting to know if the RD700GX supernatural piano voices are usable via MIDI without problems.

As these stage pianos are intended for professional use, I would expect this, because almost all non-classical music productions use MIDI heavily.

Peter

What if there was the option to get either PHA II or III in the RD, would you have a hard time picking then?


So even the "SN06 UprightPiano" preset sounds highly similar to the grands? I too would certainly like as many different pianos as possible, but I'd settle for one really good one over a bunch of lame ones.


To me Yamaha seems to be coming at things from the physical side, making things that feel like a real AP when you play them, with somewhat less emphasis on quality sound. Roland seems to value the sound first and foremost, but doesn't slack in the keys department. For my own selfish reasons I highly prefer the second approach.

I really wish I knew what Roland was going to release next in terms of stage pianos with the SN sound and good keys. I watched some videos of the Fantom G8 the other day - the big color screen and the ARX plugins seem really nice.

SuperNATURAL Piano Kit
is it really that good?
someone here said

"you are getting a Gx because of this (SN Piano)"
Im quite happy with the Expressive Grand

but is it really worth the money?

Watch this video and report back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSr1onqpEZk

hey.. both sounds are fine with my ears.. i dunno..
maybe i am not that familiar enough? LOL

may i ask you whats your input about the two..
what are the characteristics of each sound in your opinion?

thanks much

EDIT: The SN Piano is quite more rich in sound in the video.. but both are great for my ears..

I have the SN kit installed in my GX. Is it worth it? Definately. I was quite happy with the stock acoustic pianos, but the upgrade kit has opened a new door, leading to even greater enjoyment when playing the GX.
John Sr.

I suppose I'd pick the PHA III, probably due to the knowledge that it is technically capable of more...but in terms of pure feel under the fingers I don't have a strong preference...they are both very fit for their purpose.



Yes I find the upright very similar tonally. I see the whole SN thing as one piano but rendered several ways...there is more than just EQ differences but not really anything that develops into a completely different piano.

And to others wondering if the SN engine is worthy of all the fuss I'd say...yes. It is the biggest single advance in terms of pure tone generation that I have experience of in hardware pianos. To put this into context I have owned Roland RD-600, Korg SG-Pro-X, Yamaha P200, Yamaha P80, Yamaha GranTouch GT2, Yamaha Clavinova CVP-405, Kawai MP-9000, Kurzweil consoles, Technics console, Roland V-Piano, modules including GEM Real Piano, GEM RP-X, Kurzweil Micro-piano and Micro-ensemble, Yamaha P-50m, Roland P-55 etc etc.

The Supernatural sound is far ahead of these others in a technical sense...those that do not like it simply don't like it...and that is absolutely fair enough because you either make an emotional connection to the sound of a piano or you don't. But take it from me, TECHNICALLY, the Roland is the state of the art at the moment.

Cheers,

Steve

wow.. those words are teasing me to buy the SN kit.. lol
but hey.. K-RD700GX1 is not yet i think available here in our country.. dang

thanks for the input..

My personal opinion is that only difference between PHAII and PHAIII is the third sensor for quicker repetition (the same difference like yamaha's GH and GH3).

Does anybody here have picture of PHAIII action??

Here's one of the PHAII:



Probably highly similar? That looks like a sensor under there on that inclined PWB. Anyone know how the mechanism works?

Here is another picture of PHAII:



Maybe some brave RD700GX owner with screwdriver should make us few pictures...

THAT'S the one I was looking for, thanks! The gray thing is conveniently transparent, and they show the key both up and down.

Here's a video of it:


Combining your better picture and the video I think I see how it works. A little prong hanging down from the key apparently presses down on the white plastic thing, which has a metal weight on the other end. They use a conductive rubber plunger thing against the PWB for velocity sensing. From your picture I think they hinge the white thing differently for the white / black keys, which is good, as often white & black keys are treated the same, which gives the black keys a mechanical disadvantage.

The little prong looks kind of weak, and I really hate conductive rubber / PWB switches as they aren't gas tight and the rubber can leach and cause conductivity issues. But I guess everyone else is doing this too.

Great video I have to find the way how to slow it down step by step...

In Casio PX330 was conductive rubber too. Yamaha has some platic "bolster" with 2 or 3 contacts under rubber cap (I'll have a look in when my P155 will come ). There was one thread on this forum where are pictures of disassembled GH3 action. The only difference is Kawai AWA Pro / RM3 action which has real wooden keys. There are probably some kind of optical sensors.

What's very interesting on PHAII is their hammer splited in 2 parts. They've got plastic part connected by pivot with the metalic counterweight. So when the key is pressed then first only plastic part is moving and in middle of the track also metalic end is lifted up. It could probably simulate escapement effect. Otherwise I don't see any other mechanical part which should do that.

The sound is different as a stereo perspective and reverb but the general quality with the thin and tin sound is still there. Dewster, listen carefully to your DPBSD test with the velocity layers - there is no audible switch however when the velocities approach higher values, the sustain of the notes is extremely thin and artificial, probably too much postprocessing was applied to the sound. Now compare to any of the Ivory files and you will see that the sustain there is woody, consistent with the attack and much more full-bodied as a whole.

Hmm. Here is the layer test from various DPs with smoothly blended layers, all highly compressed to remove long term variation in loudness:

http://www.mediafire.com/?znlyttnkztx - RD-700GXF (GX w/ SN card)
http://www.mediafire.com/?mmdwgzjgnww - CP1
http://www.mediafire.com/?wdzzr3tjymy - CA63

They all get kind of "clangy" at the end, but nothing is jumping out at me as particularly obnoxious from the RD. The RD gets "clangy" more linearly and a bit earlier than the others do I suppose, but you could probably tame that with the velocity curve. Maybe I'm not listening for the right thing - perhaps someone with better trained ears could point the pluses and minuses here? Is this comparison group even valid?

I do notice issues with the RD SN sound in videos, something like a "chiff" or white-ish noise sound during louder attacks - it's really obvious in the "Always On My Mind" melody line in that video - but I haven't heard this in any MP3s so far so I'm assuming it's an artifact from the movie compression process.

Dewster, could you put also same isolated and normalized velocity layers tests for Synthogy Ivory for comparison? In the three files above I find this artificial note sustain in both CA63 and RD, but not in CP1 which to my ears sounds best in regard to the note sustain at mid and high velocities (however CP1 sounds most monotonous of the three, but is otherwise a great sample with no nasty postprocessing). Maybe that has something to do with the original pianos sampled, but I am currently listening to the Ivory tests (although not normalized) and I find the sound there more like that in CP1.

dewster, I'm sure you're already well aware of this, however assuming you are referring to the Roland video clips on YouTube, the audio/video quality can usually be increased considerably by selecting a higher resolution.

Ideally, you should download the maximum resolution video in MP4 format (there's lots of information about this procedure online), and perhaps even extract the audio track in order to assess the instrument's quality. And even then, as you note, the compression used in the video means that any analysis should be taken with a pinch of salt anyway.

Cheers,
James
x

They all use these excepted those that have optical sensors.
If it has optical sensors, be sure you see it in the advertising and be sure it is nearly unpayable ;-)
If you dont see it, then it has rubber contacts.

But there is an important difference: Some have only rubber coated with a conductive black color. This can wear out very soon.

Yamaha and Kawai, so far I have seen, use solid conductive plastic. This doesnt corode and wear is neglectable. Gas sealing is not required. This material is highly reliable. It is for example also used in servo potentiometers in heavy duty applications.

More probable to fail is the carbon contact on the Pcb. Once I had to repair broken contacts on my Yamaha CVP.
They lost connection to the PCB traces...

I have now also seen how Kawai does it. The carbon is very unlikely to break, because it is printed onto copper on a large area. Cannot loose contact.

A 0.1 - 0.2 mm thick conductive Plastic is glued into the rubber bubbles.
I am hopeful the glue will not become loose one day. If yes then this will last forever. If not, then I need to find a method to re-glue it.
But frankly said: I have never seen a report about an AWA keyboard with contact problems. So I think this will last forever ;-)

Sure CyberGene!

http://www.mediafire.com/?nozmymt2jnz - Ivory Bosey
http://www.mediafire.com/?mmyri5zqttt - Ivory Italian
http://www.mediafire.com/?vmn2l4wt4yh - Ivory Steinway

And to shake things up a bit, a kabillion real layers:

http://www.mediafire.com/?mmhwtkyytk2 - Vienna Imperial

Thanks! Yes, I've seen the conductive rubber / carbonized trace thing in remotes (some of which gum up and fail quite regularly, others hang in there).


Yes, conductive plastic can be quite reliable.


Either that or they will all crap out at once!

The Ivory Bosey sounds rather bright on its first layer. It would be interesting to know the velocity levels of the first layers. Obviously, they can't start ppp, they have to compromise. That's what I love about the VI, its expressiveness at the extremities is maintained.

I've not yet seen an obvious issue addressed. The RD-700GX with SuperNATURAL Kit installed will have it's expansion slot filled and no longer available while I assume an RD-700GXF would have an available expansion slot. That empty slot has value. So if they were equal price I'd want the "F" version

No, it's my understanding that the RD-700GXF is just an RD-700GX with the SN kit already installed in one of the two SRX expansion slots. That's it. The only reason to buy it is if its street price is below the GX and SN kit sold separately (or if you can't handle a screwdriver).

I would say it's a great time to get an RD700GX. I went to my local music store (Sam Ash in my case) and they said that they are selling out the RD700GX so they gave me a great price. I asked if the GXF was coming in and he said it was going to be $2800 but didn't know when to expect it.

Given the huge discount on the 700GX right now, I'm getting it and then I'll upgrade with the SN kit. My total should be in the low 2k range with this combo as copared to $2800 for the newer 700GXF model (unless of course you can get the new model at a significant discount). I'm extrememly excited because I've wanted the 700GX for about a year and the price is finally where I'm comfortable getting it.

CyberGene, what do you think of the SN / non-SN comparison in this video? The reverb and stereo separation seem much better matched. I can hear the non-SN low notes looping at the end of some of the pieces, and I still hear that "chiff" noise on loud SN mids (around 2:30):

Pedies, can you give more exact dollar amounts? Is that a demo or a virgin unit? Whereabouts was the Sam Ash?

My understanding is the the RD-700GXF is a RD-700GX plus the Supernatural expansion board (preinstalled). Why would there be any difference in price between the two? You end up with EXACTLY the same thing, in each case. (While I'm at it, why bother with the RD-700GXF designation? Makes no sense. It's a RD-700GX with an expansion board. Several boards are available, and I believe you can install two of them at the same time).

Lawrence

Yes, I agree it's kind of stupid, but they are apparently phasing out the GX. If we end up with a decent discount on the SN board I won't complain too much though.

The SuperNatural is better, having softer and woodier pianissimos but now I realize that what you call "chiff" notes is the same what I don't like in the Roland piano sound, I can't describe it good enough, my words are like "springy-plastic" feel for the sound. The sound seems to have an artificially rich sound signature and timbre when you play ff and fff, but the amplitude of the sound is not high enough to correspond realistically to the rich harmonics of the timbre and the feeling is one of unrealistic timbre jumping, which you can't do on a real piano. On a real piano when you bang on the keys, the amplitude is also high. Here only the timbre changes but the amplitude is less than expected. That's my feel but I am not sure if I can explain it correctly.

P.S. Other possible explanation could be that the amplitude on ff and fff is realistic but there is also filter applied which opens the sound too much, enriching it too much... who knows.

When is the RD-700GXF going to be available? If you look at ZZOUNDS, for example, their photo of the RD-700GXF is actually of the RD-700GX.
( http://www.zzounds.com/item--ROLRD700GXF )

"Phasing out the GX" implies a new board. I'm confused!

I've posted this once before, but I'll do so again with the best of intentions, so as to help anyone trying to make a decision. I have a friend that works at Sweetwater(Tony Dayton).

We talked on the phone about a week to 10 days ago about a variety of things concerning musical equipment,ect. While we were talking, I asked him about the RD700GX-GXF, and what the story was on this.

It just so happened that their Roland representatives had held a meeting with them the previous day in their building, about NAMM 2010 gear, and upcoming new gear from Roland. They told Tony, and the other sales reps that the coming GXF was merely the GX with the SN kit preinstalled from the factory.

I have absolutely no reason to doubt what Tony said, as he is a very solid dude who takes his job quite seriously. I asked him about the difference in the specs(weight,ect) that has been listed on a few sites, and he told me that this had to be just a case of misinformation, and he didn't know why this information was listed as such.

I honestly can't see Roland revamping the whole keyboard just to feature the SN upgrade anyway; which is really all that's being touted for the GXF.

Again; this is second hand information(I didn't talk to Roland), but I consider it as close to straight from the horses mouth as you can get.
John Sr.

Well, adding the S/N board and changing the keybed to PHA-III would make sense, and perhaps account for the weight change.

The problem is that it appears that no one from Roland is DIRECTLY providing this information, i.e. in the form of a press release or info provided on an official Roland website. Anything that I've heard or read is hearsay or conjecture. I'd like to know the facts before I pull the trigger. (Also interesting to note that there is no mention of the RD-700GXF on the Sweetwater website.)

CyberGene, have you listened to any of the SN audio samples at the Roland US web site?

http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=1055

Click on the "audio" button underneath the changing image. I don't hear what I call the "chiff" sound there, which leads me to believe it is a YouTube video / audio compression artifact.

The Roland audio samples sound to me rather compressed. The dynamic range for the HP-307 and RD-700GX(F) are both 47dB in the DPBSD test (somewhere in the middle range of DPs) so perhaps they applied compression after the fact?

Its hard to say the sound is not good for such a beautiful music! However maybe it's just my personal preference or I have got tired by the original instrument sampled (I believe it's Steinway used in Roland pianos) but what I need is a fuller, woodier, even imperfect piano sound. This one is too clean, too sterile, too perfect, I can't explain why. Yet I am sure that sound will appeal to many people and will not disappoint them in any way. By the way I have similar objections to the Kawai CA-63 sound when listening to the demos, but when I receive it I will know better. (Am I spoiled by Ivory? I love so much the Italian and the Steinway!)

I think it's a little odd too that the online photos at retailers show the GX picture for the GXF. Perhaps Roland won't be changing the paint job? Whether slapping in an expansion board is a valid model change or not is debatable.

I think Roland knows they have breakthrough technology, and are beavering away putting it in all their mid and high level products. In that light the GXF is something of a hack, though a necessary one to get the SN sound in their existing high end stage piano form factor.

The RD-700GX was apparently introduced at the beginning of 2008 (post-WNAMM I assume):
http://www.rolandus.com/corporate/press_releases/article.php?ArticleId=348&tab=2008

My fear is that it is nearing the end of it's life, the next big thing is waiting in the wings, and I'd end up feeling like a chump if I bought anything now. Then again, Roland's engineers must be rather busy revamping all of the older lines with SN, so maybe the next gen stage piano is years off?

If the GXF contained the PHAIII keys, then whether to buy anything right now or not would be a much easier decision. As it is I'm on the fence, though actually demoing one will no doubt nudge me one way or the other. None in our local stores yet.

Online retailers often use the only graphics they have on hand to use on their website when advertising the ability to pre-order new models. I wouldn't read much into that.

I agree on your point that Roland sees they have a competitive advantage with their current sound engine and are rushing to inject their high end products with the new serum. The more information we get on the CP line make it sound like Yamaha rushed putting their offer together in a distinctly ho-hum and reactive fashion rather than proactive.

I have been waiting to buy something for several years, but because of the speed with which the digital piano market is finally starting to move and how competition is hotting up I have continually found more reasons to wait than reasons to buy. I am glad I didn't spend money on a HP-207 or a CA-71. Who can say what the best moment is to step in? In general, I try to buy the previous generation technology at a discount in computers and consumer electronics, especially if the new generation of a given model is more about putting a "new & improved" sticker on the box than real step wise improvements in performance. The RD-700GX with SN card sold at a genuinely steep discount would fit my general purchasing profile and I can understand your temptation. (Are there really good deals out there though?)

I can't imagine Roland not putting both the SN sound and the PHA-III keyboard into the top of the stage slab line RD700GXF the same way that they are putting both into the LX-10F upright style cabinet model. Increasingly the VPiano seems to play more of a brand image and pricing umbrella function than to be really something people buy. The two stores here in town both report having sold exactly: zero. So, if Roland is going to profit from having a superior performing board, then they are going to actually have to put it into products that are priced to sell.

I'm sure there are EP players out there that are ecstatic with the latest trio of CPs, but for many of us looking for a groundbreaking AP patch they turned out to be something of a dud. And changing the voice on them stops the sound - even our lowly P120 doesn't misbehave like that. Why is it one step up two steps back with these basic features?


I'm kind of hoping there will be a paint job change on the RD-700GXF, as that could lead to dealers dumping the GX at a steep discount, and allow us DIY types to do the upgrade ourselves and perhaps keep some extra change in our pockets.


On another note, I was looking at some Fantom G videos yesterday. The big color screen is nice, but all of the built-in PC connectivity kind of bothers me because PC music software standards are some majorly shifting sands. It makes me wonder if high end DPs with simple controls like the RD-700GX are on their way out, with big glitzy DP/PC "solutions" taking their place. I hope not.

Dewster,
The Fantom G is a workstation though, and not just a stage piano. I thought about buying the F-G at first, but I bought the Juno-G for workstation/synth capabilities, with the intentions of buying a nice stage piano with a weighted keybed later, which is what I did buying the 700gx. I wish I could have afforded both the F-G and the 700gx. To me, I would have had the best of both worlds then(as far as Roland products go) IMHO.
JOhn

Well you do get a fancy superNATURAL sticker that you are free to adhere to any location on you GX that you like.

Curt

I want something permanently painted on every GXF that will drive the street price of the GX into the dirt. Though if the sticker looks anything like theJourney's suggestion, maybe that would work too.

I see that Sweetwater finally has the GXF listed, they're selling it for $2799. No picture, and none in stock until June 6:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/RD700GXF/

I doubt the price of the old RD700GX will ever be lower than the price of the FP-7. I notice the RD700 sells now for $2K at guitar center. With the fp7 at $1,800 there is not much room to go lower.

Are you talking about the older RD700, or the RD700SX at $2k? Last time I checked, the GX was no less than $2500.

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Roland-RD-700GX-Package-797167-i1421549.gc

If you've seen the GX at around $2k at GC, please let us know at which GC.

ChrisA, you say you've seen the RD700GX for $2K at Guitar Center? That seems way low to me. Their on-line price is about the same as everyone else ~$2500.

Are you sure you aren't confusing it with the RD700SX? That keyboard sells for ~$2k.

[edit]pianodilemma beat me to the skepticism...

What pedal would you guys recommend to get with this keyboard?

I've always heard Yamaha's pedals have better build quality. Would Yamaha FC3 work on the RD700GX(F)? Roland DP10 and DR8 aren't getting the best reviews...

What pedal would you guys use? This is my first time buying digital piano so any help would be great.

P.S. I want a pedal that emulates acoustic piano pedal as close as possible. (continuous)

Thanks

The RD-700GX comes with a damper pedal.

I'm STILL waiting for the SuperNatural Piano kit. The store cannot provide any ETA, which is unusual - at least for them. I guess Roland is jamming them in RD-700GX keyboards and calling them RD-700GXF, so perhaps stock on the boards is limited? I have my RD for 30 days before having to return it for full refund. I'd certainly like at least some of the 30 days to be spent with the expansion board installed.

I STILL don't have a definitive answer about is the RD-700GXF different than the RD-700GX + SuperNatural Piano Kit? For me, definitive is direct from Roland. It really makes we wonder when I read that RD-700GX's are being discontinued and heavily discounted. Why would they be? Makes no sense, unless the "F" has other new features that apparently are secret, at this point. Something is not right here.

Lawrence

Yes, I'm inclined to agree.

The 700GX with the SuperNatural kit built in is listed on the Roland website as a 700GX, not a GXF. Not sure where the "GXF" name came from. Just a SKU for sellers to use?

I'm hoping this all means they are trying to clear out their stock to make room for an actual 700GX/F replacement.

Why does Sweetwater, THE premiere US storefront, not have a picture for the GXF even though they now carry it (but not in stock)?

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/RD700GXF

Roland doesn't even have a press release for this product. Is it so minor it doesn't need one?

Why it so hard to photograph? Perhaps it is the Big Foot of DPs...

My first order 3 weeks ago was from ZZ Sounds who sent me a pretty box that was sealed and had everything in but the card! I returned it for a refund and order another one but was then told it would take until mid June to receive it. I then cancelled my order and ordered from Sweetwater. They had it in stock last week. FedX saids it will be here by Tuesday of next week.

You wouldn't be hoping this if you had just purchased a RD-700GX . . .

are we all the victim of the marketing scheme I am wondering?

Who knew?

so no one is still sure if SuperNATURAL kit is built-into the piano or simply 700gx1 pre-installed?

Or if there are any other changes . . . They have other expansion boards, and didn't feel the need to change the name of the keyboard . . . confusing!

PHA-III?

For example.

I've called Roland Canada about this, but was told that the person who could answer the question was on a break, for a few days. The person I spoke with tried to answer, but obviously didn't even understand the question.

All I've heard or read on this issue has been hearsay or assumption. I'd like to hear or read something directly from Roland.

I'll try to call back today.

Yeah, this is just a ditto of everything, but it's just the card included.

Funny! Just got my Rd700GX(F) in the mail today, without the expansion card. Now I'm playing phone tag trying to figure out why they sent me the wrong one (plain old GX). What the feck is going on here? Seems like I've been hearing this story too much. Is it the dealers trying to get away with some sneaky stuff?

Mafew J, I just knew the $2200 price you paid for your GXF was too low to be real!

Even for a plain vanilla GX though, I wouldn't sneeze at $2200. Add the $300 SN card and you're at the normal on-line price for the GX, so that's a pretty decent deal.

There's a GX demo here in town for $2k but demos scare me.

I received and email informing me that the SuperNatural kit I have on order has arrived at the store, so I'll be off this evening to pick it up.

Today I called the keys guy at the local Guitar center. He said the Roland dude was actually in the store at that moment, so he ran my questions past him. He said Roland was only going to ship the RD-700GX with SN installed from now on. No new paint job for the GXF.

Also talked to the keys guy at the local Sam Ash. He said they were waiting to sell out of their GX's and after that they would only sell the GXF. He too confirmed that it's just a GX w/ SN card installed.

I sure hope this works out for you, Lawrence...looking forward to your review.

Snazzy

Thanks, Snazzy. I'm back and the install and OS update went smoothly, although I'm trying to figure out if I've got the latest and greatest OS. I'm now running ver. 2.01, but at Rolandclan there is talk about 2.1, . . . .

Review to follow, not that anyone will listen to me, given my recent DP history!

Lawrence

Ha ha! Lawrence, you're super picky so I'm all ears. You're like Mikey in the Life cereal commercials...

I just tried an RD-700GX this evening - the stock pianos aren't really all that bad (as these things go).

Thanks for the clarification dewster.

Cheers,
James
x

Well I'll listen, pardner...at least you are actually sitting down and playing these things thoroughly...I'm rather fed up on the CP-series, as well as the Roland SuperNatural pianos, so it's going to be the Avant Grand N3 after I get my living space sorted out.

Every other piano sounds like poo compared to the Avant Grand N3.

I've got my arranger keyboard, the PSR-S910, and the P-85 makes a great controller for when I need 88 keys, so all that's left is a dedicated piano, and it's gonna be the N3.

Snazzy

Me? Super picky? Nah. You're the super picky one!



You didn't get to try out the SuperNatural pianos?

Lawrence

PS - Woo Hoo - I'm now a "500 Post Club Member"!

Melodialworks Music:

Is the piano that you just received 700GXF? or are you just talking about receiving 700GX1 the expansion board.

thanks in advance! waiting eagerly for your review!

I got the RD-700GX a week ago. Last night picked up the K-RD-700GX1 expansion, which had been on back order.

Unfortunately, no. GC won't stock the GXF until the last GX is out of there, and there were no other SN pianos about.


I like the little "Yikes!" that precedes the 10k post club designator on this board.

I ordered a GXF and they sent me the "wrong one", the "old version" by "accident". I really like the way it sounds, very good through my monitors but was hoping for the expansion board. I also hope I purchased the 'new run' of GX's with the "ivory feel" that doesn't have the key wear everyone's talking about. The dealer "corrected" the mistake and will be sending me the expansion board. Has anyone heard any details about the board besides the corporate BS on the brochures and the dealer sites? How much ROM does it have? Does it have any processing on board or is it just some more samples. When the say "derived from the V-Piano", is that mean it's distantly related or have some real guts of the V piano? Bottom line, the piano feels, sounds, and looks great. This is my first Roland keyboard after using Yamaha for years. It's fun to have a new experience with the menus and the browsing through the menus. Yamaha has always been as about intuitive as the DX7 when it comes to editable functions or operating systems. It's just a nice change. I like both products but didn't think that the new Cp's were revolutionary enough to warrent being stuck with a keyboard for 10 years.

Here's an english translation of a web site where they discuss the RD SN expansion board and even show a couple of photos of it:

http://www.e-muzyk.net.pl/content/view/2369/34/


Over at Roland clan someone looked at the chips for me and reported back that there is 32 MB of flash on the SN card and pretty much nothing else (no processor):

Roland Clan


And I think the V-Piano tie-in means they are probably synthesizing the decay portion of the notes (100% conjecture on my part).

Thanks, helpful!

Well, that's quite a turnaround from the guy who first sold his N3 in frustration and then together with his alter ego was suggesting that people should order CP series keyboards sight unseen and without auditioning them just on the basis of authorities who recommended them. Which is almost as interesting as the fact that Dave Ferris went back and deleted all his previous posts in the same Yamaha Stage Piano thread.

I guess what they say is very true: not just Caveat Emptor but Cavet Lector. At least half of whatever you read here from some posters is bullshit and the rest often isn't worth very much either.

Actually, Joey, I sold my Avant Grand at a tidy profit...not that it would make much sense to someone at your stage of development, and not that it's any of your business in the first place.

Mostly everything I've read from you sort has a great degree of disdain about anything that doesn't correspond to your view of the status quo...personally, I think it's because most of it goes over your head.

Certainly I'll be looking forward to when you lower your meds and learn how to participate properly on a public forum, without resorting to foul language...it does, however, give the rest of us a good indication just how low your standards really are.

Snazzy

BTW, Colleen says "Hi", and wishes you all the best of success in your recovery.

Another puerile contribution from snazzy...like clockwork. Have you also sold your CP5 at a profit that you claimed to have ordered?

Please give it a rest chaps.

James
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Hey, Joey, speaking of puerility, you're the one needing to resort to foul language.

You should quit while you're behind.

Snazzy

My apologies, James.

Snazzy

Looks like Roland has updated their site. They list two separate products, the 700GX and the 700GXF. As expected, they are identical, except for the GXF having the SN kit pre-installed.

http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=1088

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So the mystery is finally solved - thanks box!

Thanks for the update. However, I still don't see the GXF shown on the piano. Is it supposed to be invisible or something? One would think that at least Roland's site would have the correct stock images.

The F of my GXF showed up in the mail today after I was 'accidently' sent the regular GX version of the RD700. Have to say that it's not 300 dollars worth of piano there. It's okay, and some of the pianos have a funkier, less pure sound, but man, the internal sounds are easily comparable. I don't want to deter people from trying it out, and maybe I've gotta play with it more. But it's about $150 worth of piano. Anyone else have an opinion?

I don't agree at all. It transforms the RD from something that I would not record with, to something that I would.

I've tweaked, and sent recordings out for evaluation, and the feedback has been very positive, and along the lines "sounds like a real AP". The default settings in the Piano Designer are very conservative.

If you're not satisfied, can you send the expansion board back?

Yes I totally agree...the SN engine transforms the piano from a competent but unremarkable DP into something that is currently unique...ie, a hardware stage piano that can stand the most searching and critical scrutiny. I would also say that the benefits of SN become more apparent and impressive as you explore the capabilities of it.

count me among those that think the SN kit transforms the GX.
John Sr.

Another point. Playability is greatly enhanced. You can now actually play softly. Much easier to balance chords and voicing. I'm liking it the more I play. Would I EVER want to go back to the non-SuperNatural APs? In a word NO!

However, it perhaps depends on the style. I play delicate, nuanced type material. I suppose if you spanking the keys, at some point, the add-on board might not be required. (I can't imagine it myself, but then again, I don't play aggressively.)

I finally have received the official answer from Roland Canada.

"It is as I expected. The RD-700GXF is the US' version of the stock RD-700GX with the SuperNATURAL Piano Kit (K-RD700GX1) pre-installed. Here in Canada this configuration is available, just under a different name - RD-700GX1.

There are NO differences between the models - other then the installed expansion card."

Interesting that the name used in Canada and the US is different. I also inquired as to why the RD-700GX appears to be discounted at some US locations, but the Canadian rep was not able to answer this. (As far as I know it is not being discounted anywhere in Canada).

Me too...Lawrence sent me a few Wav. demos...my response follows.


Sounds like an acoustic piano...only the slightly shorter decay on the lower notes would be a giveaway, and then again, there are acoustics that have this characteristic.

My concern would be how it feels to play over an extended period of time..ie. when recording.

I liked the Roland action a lot initially, but there was something that made it tiring...I didn't feel that on the Avant Grand, and, strangely enough, I don't feel it on my P-85 either.

The Wav you uploaded sounds rich and less bright than a Yamaha, yet it still sounds like it would sit well in a mix...it's not so "rounded" in tone that it would get lost.

Again, the playability factor would be my prime concern.


I would add that this would be a great piano sound for playing jazz.

Snazzy

Wow! Good to hear you all. I do notice that there's a wider range of dynamics. Don't get me wrong, it sounds good. And I spent about 10 minutes playing it so far. Thanks for invigorating my optimism, I'll see if I get an attitude change.

Try working with Grand Piano 4. That's a favourite of some of us.

I've had the RD-700GX since last July, and was very happy with it as far as feel goes. I just installed the K-RD700GX1 SuperNatural kit and was/am blown away. The first thing I noticed was a significant improvement in playability, and authenticity and feel of the instrument. I'm more than happy about my 'RD-700GXF' as it's apparently called now. IMHO, digital stage pianos don't get better than this, just different.

It's my favorite of the 17 sounds for sure. It seems to have a good balance of 'guts' without sounding harsh. It's just a pleasant sounding piano.

And even the one note with the bad release adds to the authenticity! All APs have bad notes.

Hi everyone =)

I've been following this thread for a while, and a couple of days ago I took the plunge and bought an RD-700GX + SN Piano Kit (and traded in my 2 month old P-155 in the process). After a couple of days of just playing the instrument (the only setting I've truly changed is lifting the lid to its highest level of 7), I have a similar opinion to that of Mafew J - the SN Kit didn't quite blow me away. I'm still trying to adjust to the Roland (or Steinway) sound - I find that it sounds a bit muffled (especially in the octave between middle C and the next C up), even if I change the piano to the Bright setting. I agree with the sentiment that in terms of dynamic expression, the SN is better, no doubt, but I find the clouded tones of the mid octaves takes away from this expressivity (I guess the best way I could describe it = when the middle notes are played, it sounds like the middle pedal is being depressed, thus creating that softer/muffled effect).

I did try to play around with the EQ a bit, but I could never quite make the piano sound "clean". To me, Comp2 actually gives a very clean sound, but is too artificial (which is its purpose I suppose) to be useful for me. I've read some posts in other threads about lowering/raising the DB number for lows/mid-lows/mid-highs/highs (one of which was posted by eJohn here: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...ite_id/1#import). MelodialWorks Music (Lawrence) has also mentioned that the stock settings for the SN Kit are conservative, which I'm assuming to mean one has to play with the EQ settings to get the best sounds. For those of you that have done this, is it done with the actual EQ knobs, or do you change the settings in piano designer? Any recommended settings would be of great help. Right now I'm just playing the RD as a solo instrument and mainly play classical and softer contemporary stuff (ie Jim Brickman, music from video games, etc...) Thanks in advance for any help you guys can offer =)

Andrew

The Yamaha piano sound is the sound a lot of us expect a piano to sound.

You may just really be used to the clean, bright sound of your P155 even if it was just two months of use and whatever you were hearing before then.

Humans tend to like what they know and what they are used to.
The more you play your Roland the more likely you are to appreciate it its tone and see it more as a standard to compare against.

Personally, I agree with you that Roland has traditionally sounded more muddy and over processed and synthetic when compared to Yamaha.
However, I find the SN sound and the decay of Roland SN more realistic than the dead and static sound of the current Yamaha generation.

Life is full of tradeoffs.

I have not changed any EQ settings, only Piano Designer settings.

Well, some of us also expect to hear a Steinway!

Anyway, I would agree, a matter of context and what you are accustomed to.

I had spent a fair bit of time auditioning the N2 / N3, which sounded good. Then I got the RD/SN, and spent a lot of time with it. Last week I again played the N3, and my first reaction was "this is BRIGHT" - way more so than I recalled. So now, it is being compared to the Roland sound.

My suggestion would be - if you want a bright sound, get a Yamaha!

"All APs have bad notes."

I'm sure some do. My RX-5 doesn't.

Then you are lucky! Enjoy!

One thing I really like about the Supernatural upgrade is that when I turn on my RD700GX, it comes up with the nice Supernatural logo. Although at first I did not like piano sound number one -which is what is on when the 700GX boots up(I thought this was the modeled sound), it has grown on me and I usually just turn on my 700GX and play away at the first Supernatural piano.

I feel that this first piano sound has a very full tone and this helps my practice pieces sound much more polished than they really are.

Nor does my Kawai RX-2. Professional pianists who have played it have consistently either praised it or asked if I would sell it to them.

I should say, all APs require tuning, and some voicing and regulation once in awhile... and not all of them get it. Even some blameless instruments can end up with bad-sounding notes, a bad touch, or have a room with such bad acoustics they can just never sound right. Come to think of it live performers (on any kind of instrument) can run into that problem.

A lot of the credit goes to my tech, who's given my piano such great care. But I think the maker did a good job on this model.

I still love my DP too, though.

My beautiful and pristine, Steinway B doesn't have any "bad notes" either, but like every other acoustic, including RX-5's and RX-2's, it sounds like the "piano from hell" when it starts to go out of tune.

At that point, the piano from hell has an intrinsic value of zero, and remains at that level until Mr. Tuner, the Exorcist, is paid his pound of flesh to drive out the Demon of Dissonance and put it right, and all is well for next few months until the when the entity returns and the cycle repeats ad finitum.

It's so strange that an acoustic piano's greatest strength, which is the lushness and fullness of tone due to it's inherent "slight imperfections", is also it's biggest weakness.

Snazzy

Makes it sound almost human.

Yes, APs are really alive, as compared with DPs, although properly tweaked the RD/SN is pretty darn convincing.

Given a choice, I'd quite likely choose the Roland RD-700 or the Avant Grand N3.

Anything else is not that much better than my P-85 to consider.

Thankfully, I'm content with the P-85/S910 combo right now, and not really needing something new.

The RD/SN is about the nicest and most accurate piano I've heard...especially if you want something close to the Steinway sound.

Snazzy

If only they could have made the V-Piano sound so good. (Sigh)

Yep, that one was a flop.

There are several stores I know of that can't sell their floor stock, and won't order any more.

Too bad, as the idea was sound (pardon the pun), and the launch went okay...but, it just didn't cut the mustard.

I believe all the VST modeling programs were too much like it for a lot less money.

Snazzy

Samples + modelling is the way to go! I look forward to when Yamaha catches up to Roland, in the sound department. That will be cool.

My dream: N3 action and sound system + Roland SuperNatural engine.

I have a service manual for an old Hammond organ. It has a warning not to tune the organ to "perfection". The organ was an analog device and there were 24 screwdriver adjustment points for pitch. The book said to tune it by ear listening for beats and leave it it that. They said not to use laboratory grade frequency counters. Then (unlike most service manuals) they give the reason why, they said that those slight variation in tune is what gives the organ it's unique sound and character. They go on to say the same applies to a violin section of an orchestra, that each is not in perfect tune. I think even back in the 1940's they knew what you wrote above. it's the quirks and inperfections that make the sound seen real.

Like I said, bad notes!

Exactly!

Snazzy must be feeling very mellow. He's agreeing with everyone! (Or his medication is FINALLY adjusted properly!)

Yes, yes, and yes.

I'm feeling better after spending a few hours on the card. It does have a lot of character. The grandpiano4 is nice. I think what gives it an edge is the 'roughness' of the sound. Gettin' better all the time.

Yes I think subjectively it gets better the more you get to know it.

Another vote for Grand Piano 4 here!

Another vote for an imaginary cocktail of Avant Grand N3 with SN sound engine!

Another vote for the V-Piano being a flop! Although perhaps a flawed diamond might be kinder because what it does well (playability) it does better than anything.

Lawrence, post a link on this thread to your tweak 4...will open people's eyes to what SN is capable of...astoundingly acoustic piano-like.

One other comment...others have said the Yamaha sound has become embedded in our consciousness but thinking about it, I'm not quite so sure...I just think it is a kind of brightness that people initially expect (and Yamaha happens to deliver). The vast majority of pianos in popular music are EQ'd to make them unbelievably bright...they sound right in a mix but would sound unbearable as a solo instrument. I happened to listen last night to Van Morrison's "Wonderful Remark"...now that piano sound is just disgusting but it sort of works...and is typical of pop music pianos. It is this mental imprint of a piano sound that many of us have in our heads. After a little while with the SN pianos you soon become re-educated. My opinion anyway.

Cheers,

Steve

I will, if and when I can figure out how to get the damper noise to record.

I still plan to test using the N3 / N2 to control the RD/SN, which might give me the best of both worlds. I'm also looking into a Yamaha AP with MIDI (I suspect the identical optical sensor system found in the N3 / N2.)

I concur in regards to sounding most like a Steinway. I've played the 7' Steinway (not sure the model) at my Jazz school here in Nashville numerous times the sounds coming out of my RD/SN are quite close to me. All in all, we have to remember that these are digital pianos, and to me, the RD/SN combo, is as good as it gets for a flexible digital stage piano in both action/sound.

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Dave,

I strongly agree, the Superior Grand is the best sound on the stock RD-700GX. I believe the SN sounds (except Grand Piano 1) are mainly based around something tonally closely related to the Superior Grand...but, with a much more compelling bass (the Superior has a somewhat unpleasant dryness to the bass - as do almost all the stock 88 key sampled RD-700GX pianos) and a total absence of the looping and velocity switching that is clearly audible on the Superior.

In short, if you like the Superior you will like the SN Grand Piano 4 (and 2) very much indeed in my opinion. I also agree with you - I don't like the Expressive Grand too much and personally find the SN Grand Piano 1 (which I assume is the SN GP sound featured in the video you linked to) to be a somewhat super-natural'd Expressive Grand...better than the Expressive but with something of that tonality.

Hope this helps,

Steve

There's something going on with the stereo field in that video. The non-SN piano sounds like it's inside a small box. And the audio quality in the video is fairly poor, I hear strange buzzing and chiffing - I believe from too much audio compression.

Here's a different comparison where It's much harder for me to tell which one is SN and which one is not:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcFxnqpbqbQ

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I prefer that video too, without a doubt. The material and the way it is played is quite intimate and revealing. Too bad about the audio quality though.

I personally liked the Ultimate Piano the best when my RD was stock. I think the Superior Grand sounded cheap for some reason. The Expressive grand sounded good from the bottom to the upper mid range, but once on top, it started sounding 'tinny' and the touch (even on Super Heavy) became too sensitive.

As I've said before, one of the things I first noticed after I installed the SN card, the action/feel became so much more authentic to me. I honestly 'play' my RD the way I play an acoustic grand. What's amazing too, is I came from a CP300 to the RD-700GX last summer, and thought the RD sounded so much better then, let alone now with the SN card upgrade. As far as action, the RD-700GX is vastly superior to most other digital stage pianos IMHO.

Guitar Center doesn't have the GXF yet, and they don't seem to be expecting it anytime soon. Its the same for GX expansion kit. I've called them, but they don't seem to know anything. Does anyone have any information on that?

How do places like Sweetwater get them this much in advance of Guitar Center. Because they sell higher volume? Or might they be taking GXs, putting in the expansion kit themselves and selling them a GXFs.

Ever since I saw the UPS guy *literally* drop my new 27" TV from the delivery truck to the ground, I avoid ordering on-line whenever possible. :| (that TV died a little over a year later)

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Received my GXF a few days ago. I'm quite pleased with it and am happy to retire my old, bright sounding Yahama.

Before I purchased I looked into the key wear issue thing. I asked around and got an official response from Roland. This information may already be out there somewhere, but here it is again, for those who are considering the GX: Yes, there were very few cases (one in several thousands). The cause was most likely the use of an alcohol based hand product, like Purell (which I believe is a waterless hand sanitizer). Alcohol is very bad for the GX keys.

edit: or use of a cleaning solvent (alcohol, benzene, thinner)

I'm looking for a keyboard stand now. This looks like it would be pretty sturdy. Anyone use one of these before?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/69...e_Keyboard.html

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