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#1426956 - 04/30/10 06:15 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
I kind of did write out the notes but my handwriting is aweful. I also never know whether the connecting lines between the 8th notes need to be underneath or above the notes.

I can read music but I am still quite slow at it. Played a little bit of classical music when I was a child. I then stopped for almost a decade. Now I play chords in church and obviouisly try to learn jazz with Joy of Improv smile

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#1426958 - 04/30/10 06:18 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: saiman]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
Regarding the Improv, Dave Frank has given me the confidence that I can also learn how to do it. The problem is mainly that my teacher just gives me these hard things to do that are above my ability. Singing and composing melodies without getting caught up with the left hand is what i want to focus on now

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#1426973 - 04/30/10 07:18 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: saiman]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2300
Loc: Sydney
Your teacher sounds like my former jazz teacher. A great performer but a hopeless teacher. These guys just make you feel bad. The more they show you how good they are, the worse you feel. As you said, they just expect you to work it all out yourself.

I remember on about my third lesson, he gave me a long series of really hard chords with #5 everywhere and said “Improvise.” I tried to do an Art Tatum and he said “You are so far away from where you need to be ” !
Now I think it’s so funny and I keep on laughing about my sad lessons but he made me really stressed at the time.

Luckily he changed my lesson time and it clashed with my tennis.
Why are you persevering with your teacher ? Aren't you wasting your money on him ?
Anyway I'm really pleased you're persevering with this fun game called jazz improv.

I love the JOI approach. One learns good tunes which really helps improve one's sense of melody.

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#1426978 - 04/30/10 07:25 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: saiman]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2300
Loc: Sydney
Don't worry about the connecting lines being up or down.
But get the note values right e.g. quarter note, or 8th note.
Then we will know what you mean.

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#1426985 - 04/30/10 07:42 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Saiman,

that would be helpful if you could post that page. If you don't write music very well, then this will teach you. In the meantime, you'll learn how to read. Basic note reading is essential. And it's not that hard. You might want to spend a few hours studying this if you don't understand quarter vs eight notes.

That said, I think you get the gist of it. I notice lines of varying lengths, which is good. You can try even longer lines, but you have a nice mix there.
Also you start your lines alternating between 1, 1& and 2. That's a good mix too, you can experiment with all those beats.

Again, if you post the sheet, it will be easier to watch while I listen. It will stick in my head longer that way.

Both of you obviously got the point of the exercise, so that's great. After you've done about 20 of those, you will see improvisation in a completely new way. For one, you will have encountered a variety of progression, and you would have already beaten them once.

Here's the 2 composition I did some time back:
http://jazzitup-knot.blogspot.com/2009/04/swing-me-to-sleep.html


About teachers Saiman, one thing you'd notice if you took a lesson with Dave, is what when he plays something for you, it's something that you CAN play. Today. Not in 5 years. It's how he wants you to play today. If you want to be dazzled, get a CD. If you want to understand the concept you need to work on next week, listen to him play at the lesson.
Dave has taught at Berklee for over 15 years. I'm pretty sure he's seen all sorts of young musicians. That's the kind of experience you want, The guy who teaches at universities.

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#1426993 - 04/30/10 07:58 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
thank you for your feedback knotty. So can Custard and I now move over to the next composition on Unit 2? I am really enjoying this way of learning.

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#1426996 - 04/30/10 08:11 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: saiman]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
yes of course!
After you finished one composition, you can move on to the next. I used to do typically one every other week, whatever speed works for you is good.
Evidently you're also doing the Hanons, tunes, chords and singing with solo, so that should keep you fairly busy.
Also, you don't have to do all the exercises from the same lesson at the same time. Sometimes, I like to keep a Hanons an extra week, or stay on it for just one week. That's ok. That's all good.
For info, I think I only started the compositions after I was on lesson 10 or so. I started improv when I got to lesson 25 or so.

After you finish a few compositions, we can start some simple improv and see.
I'm afraid it might become very difficult for me to provide useful feedback at that point, because we'll all be at the same level. But I'm sure we can get something out if it.

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#1427002 - 04/30/10 08:23 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
saiman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 125
haha dont worry knotty, I dont think I will overtake you anytime soon. I listend to some of the stuff on your blog. Its awesome.

I will keep working through the pieces on a quicker pace but additionally do a composition on all the previous pieces. I dont specifically stick to the solos from the list, as I dont have youtube at work but I listen to a lot of stuff like Ella and try to sing with her.

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#1427031 - 04/30/10 10:11 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: saiman]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Thanks Saiman, that's a nice thing to say.

Don't worry so much about pace or whatever. You should have plenty to do, and so long as you're enjoying the process, you have it made.

Take care.

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#1427034 - 04/30/10 10:24 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
just as we were talking about feeling in 4s, I was looking at these Hal Galper videos. He demonstrates the feeling in 4s towards the 2nd half.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NehOx1JsuT4&feature=channel

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#1427060 - 04/30/10 11:09 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
bluespianofan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/09
Posts: 102
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Hi everyone;
I'm quite excited to be starting out with JOI. I received my book last week and it is exactly what I've been looking for. Thanks, Dave!
I've been been working hard on lesson one and have a couple of questions:
1) Is the Hanon to be practiced with both hands together or just the right hand. I've been practicing hands together because that's what I'm used to doing (in classical).
2) In the discussion of singing the master solos, reference is made to looping the solos on a cassette. Given that cassettes have become virtually obsolete, I'm wondering what methods others have used to loop these solos.
Thanks for your time.
Tony Wells
_________________________
Hailun 178

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#1427089 - 04/30/10 11:53 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: bluespianofan]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Hi Tony,

1) Play them separately. If you have time, play them with your LH. If you don't have time, then only do the RH.

2) I use Transcribe! Cost me $60 or so, it's great for slowing down, transposing and looping.

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#1427155 - 04/30/10 01:24 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
bluespianofan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/09
Posts: 102
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
HI Knotty;
Thanks for the tips--time is not a problem! Transcribe! looks great--I'm ordering it right away.
_________________________
Hailun 178

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#1427444 - 04/30/10 09:50 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: bluespianofan]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2300
Loc: Sydney
Knotty
Thanks for sharing your composition for Lesson 2. I've been getting good ideas from your compositions. Did you purposely set out trying to create the Blues feel ?
What jazz standard are the chords from the Lesson 2 jazz tune based on ?
It's really nice that you've been encouraging Simon and myself from remote parts of the world. It's really difficult to get GREAT jazz teaching here.

The video was kool for illustrating playing in 4s and the importance of melodic tunes. Thank you !

Tony
It's excellent and exciting that you will be exploring JOI with us.

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#1427499 - 04/30/10 11:22 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Apple:
Lullaby of the leaves.

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#1428226 - 05/02/10 08:21 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2300
Loc: Sydney
That's cool Knotty.
I looked up the words. They're really cute.

Knotty and Saiman
I've done a chord analysis of the Joy of C the jazz tune from Lesson 2 that I will compose over.
Would either of you mind glancing through it to check I'm on the right track ?
Thanks !

http://www.box.net/shared/kmt8sddo10

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#1428311 - 05/02/10 12:20 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Apples,

that looks good.

I think I would see the g-7b5 / C7 / f-6 as a minor 251.
Then your last measures dm7b5 Db7 back to C-6 also a 251 with a tritone sub.

Then the Eb-7 to Ab7 is another 25 to the d-7b5, it's just a chromatic 25.

++

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#1428777 - 05/03/10 04:30 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2300
Loc: Sydney
Knotty, that’s just brilliant. I’m nowhere near the stage of being able to see patterns as clearly as you. Is this what you mean ? I’ve interpreted your suggestions in blue (please refer to the link below)

http://www.box.net/shared/m1uv7k8zk8

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#1430047 - 05/05/10 02:13 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Apples,

I hope you're not waiting on me to go ahead with this, I've been very busy with work and the band.

Looks like you're doing pretty well on analysis. No need to over analyse. Some keys to get started are :
- Listen to the original melody. If you can, play it with the LH at the same time. This usually helps me hear why a particular chord works over a particular melody. That's like REALLY listening and paying attention.
- Play the arpeggio over each chord. This will also get your ear ready.
- Play some scales. This can be a bit more tricky, because you need to choose a scale. As a rule, see if the scale works with the melody

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#1430226 - 05/05/10 06:14 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2300
Loc: Sydney
Hi Knotty
Thanks for getting back to me and for your further suggestions.

I’ve already started work on composing Theme A.

Maybe I went over the top in analysis as an over-reaction to your earlier suggestion of using chord tones on main beats and to end phrases.

At the other end of the spectrum, I guess you could say that the whole tune is essentially C minor.

How is Knotty in Nature going ?

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#1430271 - 05/05/10 07:26 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2300
Loc: Sydney
Hey Knots
I've just read your great post on the Adult Beginners Forum.
It sounds like awesome ear training. When I sing along to the Louis Armstrong Hot 5 or Hot 7 for JOI, it always amazes me how each band member has the skill to listen so intuitively to what the others are playing.

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#1436282 - 05/14/10 07:08 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2300
Loc: Sydney
Hi everyone
This is my second composition. It's called Longing for the Leaves.
I use Dave Frank’s chord voicings but my own rhythm. I’m always keen to improve so your comments and criticism are welcome as usual.
The score will follow tomorrow. I don’t have a scanner and will need to go to a friend’s place.

http://www.box.net/shared/zrzl8x4x1b

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#1436755 - 05/14/10 09:27 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2300
Loc: Sydney
I've now uploaded the score for Longing for the Leaves.

http://www.box.net/shared/p7rxqbau6p

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#1437069 - 05/15/10 09:10 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Hey C_A,

I found this one much better than the previous. You have nice lines of varying lengths. That's good. The A section in particular in neat.
The brigde is a little more choppy. In general, you want to try to give shapes to your lines that are more like mountains rather than zigzag. Though sometimes it's ok, especially if you repeat a pattern. But in general, for the melody, keep one direction for -say- a measure, then switch direction again.

Again, I thought this one was much better than the first. Do you feel like you are internalizing these changes a little bit more?

Ok, so here's the 3rd one I did then:

http://jazzitup-knot.blogspot.com/2009/05/bad-apple.html

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#1437552 - 05/16/10 01:25 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2300
Loc: Sydney
Hi Knotty
Your comments are very much appreciated.
Are there certain rules that you bear in mind when you compose bridges ?
I know that your tunes have a nice shape. How do you keep the direction without being linear ? (I remember reading in the Adults Beginners Forum that Jazzwee told someone not to use too many consecutive/linear notes).

Thank you for your Bad Apple composition. I like your melody, it’s easy to sing along to, and I think your title is very funny. Did you find that you had less rhythmic options in a ¾ time signature ?

Re internalizing, I was pleasantly surprised at how naturally Section A and the last half of Section B came to me. However I reworked the first half of Section B about 25 times before I thought the melody was acceptable. It’s because it was in Ab7 which to my ears sounds like a very happy key, in all its modes. But I didn’t want to make it sound too happy because I thought it should sound a bit chilled like a lullaby. Do you consciously try to make phrases sound sad or happy ?

Thanks again Knotty.

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#1437757 - 05/16/10 12:08 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
You know, it was a long time ago when I composed that, and I don't particularly remember the process. I remember struggling on Just Friends, but not particularly this one.

About linear:
At this point, I would not try to overthink too much. Just create nice melodies. Some guidelines will be to use a good amount of arpeggios Vs scales or chromatism.
So with a couple arpeggios in a row, you can easily run up 2 octaves, which is a nice big spread. Then come right down with chromatism. Beeing a be-bop fan myself, something like
F A C E G Gb F E Eb
on a Fmaj7 to Fm7
appeals to me. I just love those lines, so I try to shoot for stuff like that. This really lays out the harmony, which makes it easy for people to listen, yet, it has a lot of interest.
Obviously, Bird, Sonny Stitt, Coltrane, Bud or Barry Harris are monster of this style, and I love them all.

I have stopped these composition (I think I went to 30 or so) and I'm now doing mostly improv, but the way I tackled them was to record constantly short phrases. Then when sometimes I heard something I liked, I would rewind and listen. Too often, I would hear something great, then lose it. Recording the process helped a lot. Whatever works for you.
I used chords and scales as guidelines, but mostly, what I heard. Sometimes it came out odd, not really authentic, but that's part of the fun. I would start by playing the chords several times before singing a melody.
Sometimes I would go back to a recording of someone to dig for ideas.

At first, it took me easily 10 hours. Towards the end, it was closer to a couple.

Before you konw it, when you're done with 20 compositions, you'll find it much easier to improvise on random tunes.

Take care++

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#1438007 - 05/16/10 08:00 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2300
Loc: Sydney
Hi Knotty
Thanks for your helpful and practical suggestions.
I like the sound of the chromaticism in your compositions (have you sent any to your famous uncle ?!) I just tried your bebop example and it sounded really cool. So if the chord is a major sounding chord, is it generally okay to use the minor scale over it ?
Re recording snippets, did you play by ear on the piano the phrases that you learnt from trumpeters, sax players, clarinetists etc ?

Cheers
cus

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#1438116 - 05/17/10 12:11 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>> So if the chord is a major sounding chord, is it generally okay to use the minor scale over it ?

I'm not so sure what you mean. The thing with chromaticism is that just about anything works. There are some fairly easy way to do it, for example, just playing a 1/2 step above or below, and landing on a chord tone on a strong beat. That works really good. In general, you can do anything you want, but when you can go smoothly from arpeggio to scale to chromatic and yet maintain the harmony, it sounds pretty good.

I realize my example above is hard to follow, plus it's just something I came up with yesterday, nothing amazing. Yet ... Start on beat 1 with just 8th notes. You are outlying a Fmaj7, then going down chromatically to the 7th of F-7 on beat 1. That's an example of a line that works really nice to me. I used that on Solar yesterday.

Experiment with stuff, that's the point of the compositions. I wouldn't try to think too much.

>> Re recording snippets, did you play by ear on the piano the phrases that you learnt from trumpeters, sax players, clarinetists etc ?
If I'm stuck, I might go to a recording and see what so and so did. That will give me a good idea of what to use. I remember getting stuck on Just friends. Fortunately, I have some great recordings, in particular Benny Carter with Oscar Peterson. It's a fairly simple tune, but with a couple of sharp turns. It's a lot of fun.
Also on Yardbird suite, I was a bit stuck, I ended up borrowing one of Bird's riff from a different tune. Be-bop tunes are actually easier in a sense because the harmony is so complex that you don't really need to come up with anything special with the melody, it almost always sounds good. Take All the things you are, you can just play 1/4 notes all days using nothing but chord tones and still sound good. The same thing on So What won't get you far.

Hope you're having fun.

++

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#1438183 - 05/17/10 03:29 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2300
Loc: Sydney
You’ve answered my question really well, thank you Knotty. By major sounding, I meant maj 7 or dominant 7. As you said, chromaticism works well for just about anything.

You have to put in the effort but JOI is worth it. I’m not into shortcuts. I’m encouraged because I know you’re about to finish the course, knowing that someone else is persevering and now is reaping the benefits of the hard work. Didn’t some famous jazzer come up with “Discipline is the price of freedom “ ?

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#1438264 - 05/17/10 08:00 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
You're right, I'm about finished with the course. Over a year and a half already. That's interesting. But I can tell you Dave still has plenty in store for me.

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