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#1438595 - 05/17/10 08:04 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
custard apple Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
Knots that sounds great that you will be continuing.

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#1439020 - 05/18/10 01:19 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
FatJeff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 23
Loc: Germantown, MD
Originally Posted By: knotty
You're right, I'm about finished with the course. Over a year and a half already. That's interesting. But I can tell you Dave still has plenty in store for me.



Knotty,

I'm just starting the course myself (on guitar, not piano - I gotta focus on one instrument for the time being - doing both jazz guitar and taking up jazz piano from scratch is just to much for me). I'm on Lesson 2, about to move onto Lesson 3. I'd like to ask you what you think of the course overall, now that you've completed it. Did you do both book 1 and book 2?. How do you feel the course benefited you as a musician, esp. in terms of being able to improvise? Any other comments (good or bad) on the course?

Thanks

Jeff

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#1439318 - 05/18/10 08:38 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: FatJeff]
custard apple Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
Knotty
I forgot to tell you that I’ve been practising hard to play in 4s. When I do my Hanons, I accent the first of every four notes, and almost ghost the other ones.

Could you please help me with a couple of other questions ?

1. How do I approach the accenting when the phrase doesn’t start on Beat 1 ?

2. For songs in ¾ time, do I accent the first of every six notes for eighth-notes ?

Thank you !
custard

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#1439405 - 05/18/10 11:17 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Jeff,

I've been studying with Dave for a year and a half now, so I'm probably getting as much from the course as I can.
I have to say, Dave is not just a fantastic performer, he's also an amazing teacher. I've enjoyed it a lot. I never got bored. I never asked myself once "what should I practice today?", there's always plenty to do.

It took about 8 months or so into lessons before we started improvising. It's not like I didn't improvise before, but with Dave, I did it with a plan. We took it slow, focusing on what's important: Creating beautiful melodies and feeling in 4s. That's the bottom line. We started improvising on simple progressions, a few measures at a time, then simple tunes. At first, very slowly.

I'm starting to be much more confident playing more tunes, with more ease, and at faster tempos. Meaning I can play long 8 bars lines of 8th lines that make sense to me, much faster than before. I feel more in control.

I think it's great that C_A started this thread, and I'm happy to share my experience.

I would not know how to teach you guitar at all, I would not know whether the hanons made sense or not. I remember once Dave telling me not to try them on Sax. I can see why smile I don't know about the guitar.
I imagine the voicings would also be completely different.

I'm on lesson 50, getting to the end of book 2. I started working on Bill Evans arrangements, and we will start arranging our own tunes pretty soon (a couple months maybe).
The hanons will be replaced by tunes and licks from the Omnibook.

I'm not about to stop my lessons.

I hope you enjoy the program.

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#1439414 - 05/18/10 11:27 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Apples,

>> I forgot to tell you that I’ve been practising hard to play in 4s. When I do my Hanons, I accent the first of every four notes, >> and almost ghost the other ones.
The feeling in 4 has 2 purposes
1. Slightly, as in slightly, accent the 1st. That's where the swing will come from.
2. It will help you think longer lines. By thinking in blocks of 4.
That's not to say you can't do something else, you can play in 2s or in 3s all you want. But the basic feel is in 4s.

>> 1. How do I approach the accenting when the phrase doesn’t start on Beat 1 ?
I don't overthink that stuff. If you just focus on blocks of 4 notes, I'm pretty sure the accent will fall on the right beat. In this case, I'd consider the notes before the strong beat some kind of pick up.


>> 2. For songs in ¾ time, do I accent the first of every six notes for eighth-notes ?
Good question. I never asked myself. To me the accent just falls on 1. I'm working on My Fav. Things now, I'll try to remember to ask that next time.

The feeling in 4 is something that I think will come once you practice it for a while. I think I'm getting pretty good with it, so now I don't really focus on this anymore. One thing at a time ...

Practice your feeling in 4 by improvising on a short vamp.
D-7 G7 Cmaj7 Cmaj7
Do 4 bars, then stop
At 72 bpm.
Improvise a line. Take a break, do another.
Think 4 notes at a time.

You could also practice it on the tunes from the book.
And of course, you should feel it when you sing with the masters.

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#1439528 - 05/19/10 07:13 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
custard apple Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
Hi Knotty
Please post My Fav Things when you're happy with it. I never liked this tune from The Sound of Music until I heard Brad Mehldau play it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7fVnvJSRb4

I'm really interested in your treatment of it.

I'm going to try the vamp tomorrow. When you say to take a break, do you mean one measure ?

Bye
cus

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#1439534 - 05/19/10 07:35 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>>When you say to take a break, do you mean one measure ?

I mean stop, breath, take a break. 5 seconds, 10 seconds, whatever.

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#1439568 - 05/19/10 08:42 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>> I'm really interested in your treatment of it.

The inspiration is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7aoPBzkYK4&feature=related

This is Coltrane's move to modal music with McCoy Tyner.

Sorry for the photo of the pretty girl, the other videos have horrible audio, this one's decent.

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#1439748 - 05/19/10 01:29 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
FatJeff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 23
Loc: Germantown, MD
Hi Knotty,

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my questions. When you say you're studying with Dave, are you taking actual lessons with him, or just working out of the book (or both)? I fear if you're actually working with him one on one regularly, that your experience may differ substantially from mine, which is of course just out of the book. But that said, I'm putting faith in the process, and just working through the lessons.

I'm also taking things a step further in some respects: rather than using the included CD for accompanying material, I'm recording myself comping the chords to the two weekly tunes, and then playing over top of that. The chord voicings are not always possible on the guitar, so I'm being a bit more liberal there - depending on the situation, I may opt to play just the top three notes to get a rootless voicing (which is pretty hip anyway), or just fall back on a stock drop-2 voicing that I already know (a good example of this is the prevalence of the m6 chords in the songs - those are very tough, if not downright impossible, to play as is on the guitar, but the drop-2 versions are quite accessible and sound just as good).

I'm also writing down my master solo transcriptions in addition to learning how to sing over them, and then learning how to play the solos on my instrument from my transcription. I've got the first two Louis Armstrong transcriptions ("Struttin' With Some BBQ" and "The Last Time") on google-docs if anyone wants to take a look at them:

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B0OLdvW...mY2Ey&hl=en
https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B0O...2NDVh&hl=en

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B0OLdvW...iMDM3&hl=en
https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B0O...wY2U3&hl=en

As for the Hanon exercises, they are not always easy on the guitar, but I'm doing them anyway, in all 12 keys. It certainly is good for my fingers.

I have another question. I've seen previous posts in this thread where people are talking about making their own compositions and arrangements. Is that part of the course? I'm not seeing it anywhere in the books.


Edited by FatJeff (05/19/10 01:30 PM)

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#1439815 - 05/19/10 03:45 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: FatJeff]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Hey Jeff,

yes, I have a one on one every other Sunday.
We follow the course, but we do some things slightly differently.

For example, we don't practice the lines in 12 keys. Not that you shouldn't, but he doesn't really emphasize it.

And then, there's everything else.
We do composition early on. That's a great exercise prior to improvising. I've described it in the previous pages, if you want to check it out.
Also we do improvisations, for that, there's a path too.
And we do arrangements. We have a path for that too. Obviously, this would be very different on guitar ...

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#1439839 - 05/19/10 04:45 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
bluespianofan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/09
Posts: 102
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Knotty, what's your take on Skype lessons? Do you think they would be as effective as seeing him in person? I've been going through the lines in all 12 keys and it seems to take forever.
_________________________
Hailun 178

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#1439908 - 05/19/10 06:34 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: bluespianofan]
FatJeff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 23
Loc: Germantown, MD
In some respects, guitarists have it easy when learning things in different keys compared to pianists - most of the chords, scales, arpeggios, and anything else that is pattern-based can be moved around the fretboard verbatim and instantly be in another key. As long as it doesn't include that pesky B string, of course. :-) Then the shapes/patterns change. So BPF, I feel your pain.

On the other hand, piano has advantages over guitar in a lot of ways. too. Guitarists as a group shriek and run away in horror when they encounter keys with more than one flat. Show them a bass clef and watch as their eyes glaze over. And because most notes in one octave can be played in up to 5 different places on the guitar, it makes picking a particular voicing a real thinking exercise.

Choose your poison, I guess. :-)

Anyway, I'll be spending most of the summer cranking through the Book 1 exercises (or at least as many as I can get through - I estimate I will finish 1-10 by the beginning of the fall semester). I'm glad to hear others have had success in working through this method.

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#1439914 - 05/19/10 06:47 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: FatJeff]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
BPF,

The skype lesson format works perfect for me. It's very convenient.
If I lived in NY, I would take in person, but I don't think it matters that much.

The limitation is playing together at the same time. You can't really do that.
But what we do often is he'll play a line to set the feel of what I'm supposed to do, then I will take the next line. Dave is really good at putting himself at your level. When he shows something, he doesn't bury it under all sorts of embellishments that you could only dream of playing. That makes it easy to understand.

Again, you don't have to do the lines in 12 keys.

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#1439948 - 05/19/10 07:56 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
custard apple Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
Hi Knotty
Thanks for the amazing Coltrane modal interpretation. I especially like the way the modes lead back to the original My Favorite Things melody in 4:35 and 9:20.
Would you say that Brad Mehldau is tonal ?

FatJeff
Thank you for uploading the transcriptions for the Louis Armstrong songs. I slow the Armstrong songs down on Transcribe but because I’m new to jazz, I can now check all my phrasing back to the transcriptions you’ve provided. I hope you’re having as much fun singing them as I am.

Re compositions, it was the general fun and positive vibe of the JOI course and the analysis of artists’ songs on Dave Frank’s masterclasses which inspired me to do them.

Bluespianofan
Because I don’t do the JOI line, I find the length of each practice session very manageable.

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#1439963 - 05/19/10 08:27 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
bluespianofan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/09
Posts: 102
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Sorry, guys--I meant to say that just the JOI Solo pattern (not the JOI line) is taking me awhile to get through. At 88 bpm it still takes me a couple of minutes on each key to play it smoothly (because my chord changes aren't fast or smooth) I'm still on Lesson 1!
_________________________
Hailun 178

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#1439970 - 05/19/10 08:42 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: bluespianofan]
custard apple Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
Hi Bluespianofan
I am VERY sorry. I didn't have my book in front of me at my computer. I meant the JOI Solo Pattern the first exercise of each lesson.
You only have to worry about it when you have time.

You can move onto the next lesson if you are spending more than two and a half weeks per lesson, because one of the components of each lesson is to keep on revising previous tunes.

Are you finding that it is the JOI Solo Pattern that keeps you from moving onto Lesson 2 ?

Also for Lesson 3 I slowed down the jazz tune from 96 bpm to 80 bpm so that I could move on.
For Lesson 4 I slowed down the jazz tune from 80 bpm to 76 bpm so that I could move on.

Don't worry about perfection. As Dave said, it is the learning process which is important.

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#1439973 - 05/19/10 08:46 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
bluespianofan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/09
Posts: 102
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Yes, it's just the Solo Pattern that's holding me back--I'm a bit of a perfectionist I guess...thanks for the encouragement.
_________________________
Hailun 178

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#1439974 - 05/19/10 08:46 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
I also meant the solo pattern. We don't do them.

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#1439975 - 05/19/10 08:47 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: bluespianofan]
custard apple Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
I think it's great that you could transcribe to different keys at 88 bpm for Lesson 1.

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#1439986 - 05/19/10 09:08 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: bluespianofan]
FatJeff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 23
Loc: Germantown, MD
Originally Posted By: bluespianofan
Sorry, guys--I meant to say that just the JOI Solo pattern (not the JOI line) is taking me awhile to get through. At 88 bpm it still takes me a couple of minutes on each key to play it smoothly (because my chord changes aren't fast or smooth) I'm still on Lesson 1!


Hmm, no wonder I am breezing through it - I am just playing the solo line by itself, not the chords (kind of hard to do both at the same time on the guitar). I didn't think about that aspect for pianists! I do get exposure to those chords though, since the pattern is taken out of the last tune in the lesson.

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#1440035 - 05/19/10 10:57 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
bluespianofan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/09
Posts: 102
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Originally Posted By: custard apple
I think it's great that you could transcribe to different keys at 88 bpm for Lesson 1.

Do you transcribe on paper, or in your head as you go through the keys? For me I wrote out the chords and the solo pattern in each key since I read music fairly well. Should I be trying to do them without writing them down?
_________________________
Hailun 178

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#1440039 - 05/19/10 11:08 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: bluespianofan]
custard apple Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
It's fine to write out everything. What you're doing sounds awesome if you have the time.
Sorry about how I inaccurately used the word transcribe. I meant tranposing the Solo Pattern in each key. I don't do Exercise 1.
I learn the Hanons, the chord voicings and the Blues tune quickly but take a while with the jazz tune. With my spare time I do Hanons with my left hand. From now on, I will use my spare time to do what you do with the Solo Pattern.

When I play the Hanons, I don't write out anything. But again, it's fine to write if your learning method is visual.
Is your background classical ?

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#1440045 - 05/19/10 11:32 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
bluespianofan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/09
Posts: 102
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Yes, it's classical (damn). I don't need to write out the Hanons either, and I do them equally left and right hand, around 150 bpm. The swinging is coming along well, I think. And the tunes are going pretty well. I'm just going to spend a couple of more days and really try to nail Exercise 1 in all the keys, then some good time on the last Exercise (I just got Transcribe! set up on my Mac) before moving on to Lesson 2. Thanks for all the input!
_________________________
Hailun 178

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#1440097 - 05/20/10 03:28 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: bluespianofan]
custard apple Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
Well it sounds like you're having lots of fun which is the main thing. It's such an enjoyable course isn't it ?
After the first lesson, I also found my swing was coming along well, thanks to the combination of Hanons and continuous relistening to the way Dave played the tunes on the CD.
Hanons in both hands at 150bpm is amazing. Congrats.

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#1440147 - 05/20/10 08:24 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
About Hanons, the purpose is to find a challenge tempo, whatever it is, and everynow and then, raise it a click. So for example, if you're playing @152bpm and starting to feel comfortable, bump it to 160bpm.

When you get to about 160, make the metronome click on 2 & 4.

Depending on the exercise, I play them between 160 and 220.

This is something I do every morning for 10 minutes or so.

BPF, I think it's fine to write down the transposition for the solo pattern, but that will take you too much time. Ideally, you can sing the pattern, then switch it in another key without writing it down. Remember, you want to sing just about everything you play.

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#1440177 - 05/20/10 09:23 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
bluespianofan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/09
Posts: 102
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Yes, that is how I've been doing the Hanons by bumping the speed up as I get faster. It will be interesting to try them on 2 & 4. The solo pattern transposition will be hard for me without writing it down, but I realize that the best way for me to learn is the way you are saying. Unfortunately singing and not using written music are my big weaknesses! Thanks for the tips.
_________________________
Hailun 178

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#1440188 - 05/20/10 09:49 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: bluespianofan]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
I would imagine singing lines and transposing to be difficult for somebody with a classical background, but then again, reading and technique are usually weaknesses for those not classically trained.

Singing the hanons, singing the JOI tunes, and singing along with solos will really help you in that regards. When you sing the tunes, you can do like Jeff, record the left hand alone, and sing the tune along in the car (or wherever). Or of course at the piano.
When you sing, you don't have to sing well, but you should make an effort to sing the right pitches (versus mumbling). Another thing to take slowly. Switching octaves is normal when your voice can't reach.

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#1440499 - 05/20/10 07:10 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
custard apple Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
Hello Knots
Re the Hanons, did you make the metronome click on 2 and 4 so as to concentrate on the backbeat ?
After what tempo did you stop swinging and start playing straight ?

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#1440565 - 05/20/10 08:47 PM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>> Re the Hanons, did you make the metronome click on 2 and 4 so as to concentrate on the backbeat ?
after 180 or so, it becomes hard to follow the metronome. Playing with the metronome on 2 & 4 is much more relaxed.

>> After what tempo did you stop swinging and start playing straight ?
I'm not so sure the 2 are opposite. I'm not into ratio and such, but I think as the tempo goes up, I play more straight. I would hope to keep swinging, though.

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#1440739 - 05/21/10 05:02 AM Re: Join the JOI jazz joint ! [Re: knotty]
custard apple Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
Wow, you must have hot chops Knotty to play the Hanons at 220bpm ! Do you still sing at this speed ?!
I’m on 108bpm for Lesson 5. I started at 92bpm for Lesson 1.

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