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Let's talk about your fingers now then. What place are they? Unless you only have one idea that you'd like to employ at your problem area and you're trying to figure out a fingering that works for that particular idea I can't see a problem with fingers not being where you want them. Is that's what's happening?

Good. Let's talk about that.

Let's say I'm on | Bb7 EbMaj7 | (ignore the bars for now so we can talk scales here for moment). Here I'm playing with some melodies with my fingers on F G Ab Bb (1,2,3,4). I'm discovering that this is a dead end position for going to B scale, because of where my thumb is. So the closest I end up being in B scale from this position is to put the thumb on the closest Eb. Now I'm on a further dead end.

Now instead of using close hand positions, I spread my hand out more like on Bb7 I have my hand stretched out to to G Bb D (1,2,5). Here I don't get stuck.

So basically if I arpeggiate, I don't seem to get into a fingering problem.

The thing is that some shapes, like the 4 finger shape for Eb scale above (something one learns when playing the Eb scale), is terrible for something like Giant steps.

Notice btw that this 4 finger shape is not a problem when the next chord is Am7.

So what's wrong with me teacher?

Are those 8 notes or 4? Are you on the EbMaj7 or the Bb7? If those are 8 notes and you're going from EbMaj7 to F#7 put your thumb on the Bb instead of the 4th and then C# with 2nd finger D# with third 4th on E. Or play descending G# F# E over the F#7

The closest way to get to the B scale would obviously be to put your thumb on the B after 4th finger on Bb, but that wouldn't work over F#7.

I'm talking about a 4 note position, like playing an Eb scale, with the thumb on F. Just theoretically here, I could sit in this position for both Bb7 and EbMaj7.

Your suggestion would be good to then go up. But yes, the B would be the wrong note for F#7 unless I stay in place on the F#7 and go the B after. That could be an approach.

Like a puzzle

I hate coming up with an approach because of the physicality of it rather than what I hear in my head.

You don't have enough fingers obviously. I've got at least half a dozen on each hand. Gloves are my biggest problem.

FGAbBb--why can't you go repeat the Bb(A#), go back to the Ab(G#), etc? I think you're thinking of five note patterns if you're worried that you have nowhere to go after that Bb. The thumb can easily go to the F# too.

And why not sing your phrase as you play to see where your fingers should go?

That's the thing. If I have an idea in my ear, my fingers won't cooperate. So that's why I was just getting around this area by playing fixed patterns. It's just not a natural move for me.

So to execute what I hear, I'd have to make some quick finger jumps or think about some pivot note to switch the fingers (which would alter why I hear by adding some notes).

What's interesting is that I've never encountered this on any other tune.

I've been doing the F# with the thumb too but that dead ends too as you're stuck with an upward move. Basically it conflicts with what I hear.

Actually, you're the one who suggested fixed patterns. I suggested whole tone ideas to move through the keys. So don't do them any more. I think the problem with this tune is that, like you said, things move pretty fast in some areas. So, slow it down, work some stuff out that you like, and can easily change and modify, then speed the section up again. In the meantime, why don't you try the other related tunes and see how you fair with Coltrane type changes, but in easy and slower tunes (Have You Met Miss Jones, Here's that Rainy Day). They are great tunes, and will make you happy again, plus you may have some more logical fingerings when you come back to GS.

Yay! I figured it out. It just required some rethinking here.

If I switch from putting the thumb on F in FGAbBb to the G instead, so the 4 fingers now lay on GAbBbC, it can move around more easily. So I was playing the same melodic ideas but switching the fingering back and forth with the thumb made me easily jump to the B scale. I don't know why I never thought of that.

And in all of this I avoided putting the thumb on a black note.

The brain problem on my end here is very specific to going from Eb Scale to B scale.

So unless you have some slower tune that does that, I don't think Miss Jones or Rainy Day is going to do anything for me. I already play Rainy Day and I've run through Miss Jones and there's no problem there.

Body and Soul uses Coltrane changes. That's ok too, though I've forgotten how it goes now...

On the top of my head, I can't think of a tune where that fits. Maybe that's why I've never gotten around this.

Hey maybe you could post a version of them then?


Where exactly would Body and Soul use Coltrane changes? What do you define as Coltrane changes?

Sure! But is this a test? Then you should post it too. Here's that Rainy Day is good for solo piano. It's actually one we should work on to study reharms. I've never reharmed this but it would be a nice project.



Coltrane made a version of Body and Soul where he substituted his Giant Steps-like changes at the end. I've forgotten how it goes now as it's been awhile. Maybe someone can find it on YouTube. So you could go on a gig and someone can call 'Body and Soul - Coltrane Changes'.

On GS - It's amazing how awareness of a little problem point (fingering) has changed everything about this tune. Before I could play it only very slowly. Finally today I was able to raise the tempo. Not smooth yet but at least I got past the wall. Now it's no different than my discomfort when first learning VE.

I had a nice practice time just working on this and playing the head with two handed voicings.

It would be nice if I actually got comfortable with it by the next ABF recital. I've never really worked on this tune long enough. I start then stop when I encounter the wall.

I can't hardly make out the piano here but here's Coltrane with Body and Soul and you'll hear the 3rds/minor 3rds chord movement at the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_dL3EaJJNA

I think learning the Coltrane's solo on giant steps can help you with your fingering. I realized that I wasn't able to play that solo if I used the kind of fingering I am used to.

Also, some people have suggested learning things with "wrong fingerings" for practice sake.. so that you can be more flexible with your fingerings when you play. A friend of mine is actually working on learning chopin etude in all 12keys using the same fingering

I read in Tristano's biography that his students were taught to play scales and everything in every combination of fingers. I remember reading that the idea was to not let your physical limitations affect the musical ideas. Or something like that.

So I hear you. But this was a multi-year exercise...So I think I'll just deal with issues as they come.

Do you have snippet that might be a good thing to focus on? (Rather than studying the whole solo).

Transcription of Coltrane Solo

http://www.lucaspickford.com/transgs.htm

Etcetra, just reading how he handled F#7 BMaj7 already clarified the fingering choice. Thanks for the tip!

WHOA! I found a better version of the transcription where each progression is shown for 11 choruses. And Coltrane played F#7 the same way in 8 of them. E F# G# A#. And the B was played the same in at least half the cases and then the rest were the same pattern but some notes were skipped.

Not a test, but nice tunes to consider that don't f@ck with the brain as much. And I'll see if I can work on them and maybe post something. Reharm is what I like doing too much, instead I think I'll instead look at extending the harmony and filling in the gaps.

Now that's cool. I'll see if I can find a version to hear.

That would be a challenge. Which etude? How does one play Dbmaj scale with Cmaj or Fmaj fingering?!? Does your friend have extraordinarily long and flexible thumbs?

I remember this transcription. It's easy to see because whoever transcribed it laid it out like a score with each chorus stacked on top of the other. It goes to show that improvisation doesn't always have to invent note for note, but rather, and more likely, it is more a process of stringing together prelearned and prepracticed ideas.

I think it's like typing in that good typists know where to put their fingers not to just type individual letters, but to already have a muscle memory for certain combinations of letters making words and sentences as fast as they can speak them. Bad typists like me still have to practice those combinations. Really bad typists are still hunting and pecking with two fingers.

You have to use some awkward "jumps" to make it work. I haven't done all keys but I find the OP10#2 to be very good exercise even if you can't play it at tempo.

Jazzwee

I learned about 4 chorus worth, and I still remember like the first two. It seems like everything he plays after the 2nd chorus is a variation on the first 2 chorus anyways.