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#1438785 - 05/18/10 06:02 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
beeboss Offline
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Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Got it. That truly confused me. So where does the WT Scale fit into all this?

BAGFEb--descending whole tone scale based on the chords and some extensions.




Just to clarify..
Bmaj7, D7/A, Gmaj7, Bb7/F, Ebmaj7

or as a single line, starting from these whole tone bass notes...
(B,Csharp,Dsharp,Fsharp) (A,B,C,D) (G,A,B,D) (F,G,A,C) (Eb,F,G,Bb)

This is just one of many possibles
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#1438934 - 05/18/10 11:22 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Offline
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Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Originally Posted By: JW

BTW for me, Giant Steps messes me up in only one spot:

|Bb7 EbMaj7 | F#7 BMaj7 |

Why this part? It's the same as the first bit, but down a maj 3rd, no? Is it playing in the key of B that's difficult? Maybe just think of it as Cb, like I said before. wink



Played slowly it's not much of an issue. But played quickly with only 2 beats per chord, it's hard to come up with a melody and then land on a resolution tone with so little time. There's not enough time to develop an idea.

In a lot of G.S. there's 4 beats per chord.

Playing some triad patterns here might actually remove the thinking and that will help me.

I've really avoided trying to play G.S. with pentatonics or arpeggios ala Coltrane to see if I can just use the ear. Obviously, that has not been a successful enterprise, at least not if played fast. Works as a ballad though smile
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#1439073 - 05/18/10 02:32 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Originally Posted By: beeboss
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Got it. That truly confused me. So where does the WT Scale fit into all this?

BAGFEb--descending whole tone scale based on the chords and some extensions.




Just to clarify..
Bmaj7, D7/A, Gmaj7, Bb7/F, Ebmaj7

or as a single line, starting from these whole tone bass notes...
(B,Csharp,Dsharp,Fsharp) (A,B,C,D) (G,A,B,D) (F,G,A,C) (Eb,F,G,Bb)

This is just one of many possibles


That's even clearer!
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#1440365 - 05/20/10 02:47 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Giant Steps - so it sounds like what you guys are talking about are 4 note scalar patterns starting on some chord tone as this guy is doing here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS5PnmdAHuE

I haven't been able to play Giant Steps fast because I've never tried to memorize patterns, which is why I slow down at the | Bb7 EbMaj7 | F#7 BMaj7 | point.

Is this really the way to handle this? I know there are other patterns other than scalar so I'm not limiting it to this. I don't have a problem improvising without thought on all the other changes in this tune. This is the only point where a wrong note choice (ending on a non-resolution tone) doesn't sound good to me.

Sounds simplistic though and I'm not one to go for shortcuts. I've been trying to go with the ear but maybe it's not doable?

BTW - I tend to work on GS in spurts. Then I give up and move on when I hit a wall. I'm thinking that it's not that different from VE. Just played faster usually.
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#1440395 - 05/20/10 04:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee


I haven't been able to play Giant Steps fast because I've never tried to memorize patterns, which is why I slow down at the | Bb7 EbMaj7 | F#7 BMaj7 | point.

Maybe you missed when I posted this before, but why are you stuck here and not the first four bars as well? They are exactly the same, but just transposed down a third. Whatever you are doing in the first four bars you can do here. And to clarify, you've put divisions where they don't exist in the tune. The Bmaj7 is a resting point of four beats, right?

I'd suggest you are stuck in this place in particular because it's hard to play in Bmaj.

One thing that I do is to transpose the entire song, play it in a bunch of different keys and see what comes up when I try to solo in the different keys. Some are much easier to play in than others. And from those 'easier' keys, I'll borrow the ideas and transpose them back into the 'difficult' key.
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#1440655 - 05/21/10 12:27 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Offline
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I had to think about it as I practiced. Some are easier because you have 3 chords to deal with in the same tonality. Some are easier because the tonalities are not so far apart.

The EbMaj7 jumping to BMaj7 tonality is a jerky jump to me. So it's the transition that gives me a problem. Then I realized that part of it is that my fingers are in the wrong place by the time I have to play in B. It isn't B itself, since there's a lot of B's in VE, Nef, Chick tunes (Matrix, Windows), etc.

It's like a wall though. It's hard to conquer.
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#1440709 - 05/21/10 03:01 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee
I had to think about it as I practiced. Some are easier because you have 3 chords to deal with in the same tonality. Some are easier because the tonalities are not so far apart.

The EbMaj7 jumping to BMaj7 tonality is a jerky jump to me. So it's the transition that gives me a problem. Then I realized that part of it is that my fingers are in the wrong place by the time I have to play in B. It isn't B itself, since there's a lot of B's in VE, Nef, Chick tunes (Matrix, Windows), etc.

It's like a wall though. It's hard to conquer.

You still didn't address the first part about what I said. It's the same progession as the opening bars, so why the trouble with this particular spot? Are you ignoring this?
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#1440714 - 05/21/10 03:13 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Offline
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Huh? It's not the same progression. For whatever reason, G to Eb is easy enough as a transition. Eb to B not too easy for me.

You're not reading what I'm saying. I indicated that my fingers end up in the wrong spot. The transition is different.

It'll come. Now that I'm aware of my fingering issues, I have something specific to practice.
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#1440942 - 05/21/10 12:44 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Huh? It's not the same progression. For whatever reason, G to Eb is easy enough as a transition. Eb to B not too easy for me.

B D G Bb Eb------G Bb Eb F# B is EXACTLY the same progression. What are you talking about????
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

You're not reading what I'm saying.

Yes I am. You said you had trouble with the progression from Eb to B (assuming through the F#). You didn't indicate it was simply a fingering issue, otherwise I never would have responded.
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

I indicated that my fingers end up in the wrong spot. The transition is different.
It'll come. Now that I'm aware of my fingering issues, I have something specific to practice.


See below. This is where you started, JW. What at what point did you say this is a fingering issue?

Originally Posted By: jazzwee


BTW for me, Giant Steps messes me up in only one spot:

|Bb7 EbMaj7 | F#7 BMaj7 |

If I just practice all the permutations and combinations in the jump between these two bars then I'm golden. I just never persist.

And, there are no two bars that look like that in Giant steps in any case, you've misaligned the bars: |Gmaj7 Bb7|Ebmaj7 F#7| Bmaj7 /|
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#1440950 - 05/21/10 01:00 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Then I realized that part of it is that my fingers are in the wrong place by the time I have to play in B. It isn't B itself, since there's a lot of B's in VE, Nef, Chick tunes (Matrix, Windows), etc.


And yes I misaligned the bars when I wrote it. But you get the point...


Edited by jazzwee (05/21/10 01:01 PM)
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#1441069 - 05/21/10 04:17 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Let's talk about your fingers now then. What place are they? Unless you only have one idea that you'd like to employ at your problem area and you're trying to figure out a fingering that works for that particular idea I can't see a problem with fingers not being where you want them. Is that's what's happening?
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#1441141 - 05/21/10 06:06 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Offline
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Good. Let's talk about that.

Let's say I'm on | Bb7 EbMaj7 | (ignore the bars for now so we can talk scales here for moment). Here I'm playing with some melodies with my fingers on F G Ab Bb (1,2,3,4). I'm discovering that this is a dead end position for going to B scale, because of where my thumb is. So the closest I end up being in B scale from this position is to put the thumb on the closest Eb. Now I'm on a further dead end.

Now instead of using close hand positions, I spread my hand out more like on Bb7 I have my hand stretched out to to G Bb D (1,2,5). Here I don't get stuck.

So basically if I arpeggiate, I don't seem to get into a fingering problem.

The thing is that some shapes, like the 4 finger shape for Eb scale above (something one learns when playing the Eb scale), is terrible for something like Giant steps.

Notice btw that this 4 finger shape is not a problem when the next chord is Am7.

So what's wrong with me teacher?
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#1441160 - 05/21/10 06:40 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
KlinkKlonk Offline
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Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 351
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Good. Let's talk about that.

Let's say I'm on | Bb7 EbMaj7 | (ignore the bars for now so we can talk scales here for moment). Here I'm playing with some melodies with my fingers on F G Ab Bb (1,2,3,4). I'm discovering that this is a dead end position for going to B scale, because of where my thumb is. So the closest I end up being in B scale from this position is to put the thumb on the closest Eb. Now I'm on a further dead end.


Are those 8 notes or 4? Are you on the EbMaj7 or the Bb7? If those are 8 notes and you're going from EbMaj7 to F#7 put your thumb on the Bb instead of the 4th and then C# with 2nd finger D# with third 4th on E. Or play descending G# F# E over the F#7

The closest way to get to the B scale would obviously be to put your thumb on the B after 4th finger on Bb, but that wouldn't work over F#7.


Edited by KlinkKlonk (05/21/10 06:44 PM)

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#1441197 - 05/21/10 07:25 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: KlinkKlonk]
jazzwee Offline
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I'm talking about a 4 note position, like playing an Eb scale, with the thumb on F. Just theoretically here, I could sit in this position for both Bb7 and EbMaj7.

Your suggestion would be good to then go up. But yes, the B would be the wrong note for F#7 unless I stay in place on the F#7 and go the B after. That could be an approach.

Like a puzzle smile

I hate coming up with an approach because of the physicality of it rather than what I hear in my head.
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#1441215 - 05/21/10 07:41 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Registered: 04/18/08
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee


So what's wrong with me teacher?



You don't have enough fingers obviously. I've got at least half a dozen on each hand. Gloves are my biggest problem.

FGAbBb--why can't you go repeat the Bb(A#), go back to the Ab(G#), etc? I think you're thinking of five note patterns if you're worried that you have nowhere to go after that Bb. The thumb can easily go to the F# too.

And why not sing your phrase as you play to see where your fingers should go?
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#1441219 - 05/21/10 07:58 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Offline
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Loc: So. California
That's the thing. If I have an idea in my ear, my fingers won't cooperate. So that's why I was just getting around this area by playing fixed patterns. It's just not a natural move for me.

So to execute what I hear, I'd have to make some quick finger jumps or think about some pivot note to switch the fingers (which would alter why I hear by adding some notes).

What's interesting is that I've never encountered this on any other tune.

I've been doing the F# with the thumb too but that dead ends too as you're stuck with an upward move. Basically it conflicts with what I hear.


Edited by jazzwee (05/21/10 08:00 PM)
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#1441226 - 05/21/10 08:13 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Actually, you're the one who suggested fixed patterns. I suggested whole tone ideas to move through the keys. So don't do them any more. I think the problem with this tune is that, like you said, things move pretty fast in some areas. So, slow it down, work some stuff out that you like, and can easily change and modify, then speed the section up again. In the meantime, why don't you try the other related tunes and see how you fair with Coltrane type changes, but in easy and slower tunes (Have You Met Miss Jones, Here's that Rainy Day). They are great tunes, and will make you happy again, plus you may have some more logical fingerings when you come back to GS.
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#1441263 - 05/21/10 09:04 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Offline
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Yay! I figured it out. It just required some rethinking here.

If I switch from putting the thumb on F in FGAbBb to the G instead, so the 4 fingers now lay on GAbBbC, it can move around more easily. So I was playing the same melodic ideas but switching the fingering back and forth with the thumb made me easily jump to the B scale. I don't know why I never thought of that.

And in all of this I avoided putting the thumb on a black note.

The brain problem on my end here is very specific to going from Eb Scale to B scale.

So unless you have some slower tune that does that, I don't think Miss Jones or Rainy Day is going to do anything for me. I already play Rainy Day and I've run through Miss Jones and there's no problem there.

Body and Soul uses Coltrane changes. That's ok too, though I've forgotten how it goes now...

On the top of my head, I can't think of a tune where that fits. Maybe that's why I've never gotten around this.
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#1441350 - 05/22/10 12:24 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Registered: 04/18/08
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Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee


So unless you have some slower tune that does that, I don't think Miss Jones or Rainy Day is going to do anything for me. I already play Rainy Day and I've run through Miss Jones and there's no problem there.

Hey maybe you could post a version of them then?

Originally Posted By: jazzwee

Body and Soul uses Coltrane changes. That's ok too, though I've forgotten how it goes now...

Where exactly would Body and Soul use Coltrane changes? What do you define as Coltrane changes?
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#1441359 - 05/22/10 12:57 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
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Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Originally Posted By: jazzwee


So unless you have some slower tune that does that, I don't think Miss Jones or Rainy Day is going to do anything for me. I already play Rainy Day and I've run through Miss Jones and there's no problem there.

Hey maybe you could post a version of them then?


Sure! But is this a test? Then you should post it too. wink Here's that Rainy Day is good for solo piano. It's actually one we should work on to study reharms. I've never reharmed this but it would be a nice project.

Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

Body and Soul uses Coltrane changes. That's ok too, though I've forgotten how it goes now...

Where exactly would Body and Soul use Coltrane changes? What do you define as Coltrane changes?



Coltrane made a version of Body and Soul where he substituted his Giant Steps-like changes at the end. I've forgotten how it goes now as it's been awhile. Maybe someone can find it on YouTube. So you could go on a gig and someone can call 'Body and Soul - Coltrane Changes'.
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#1441361 - 05/22/10 01:02 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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On GS - It's amazing how awareness of a little problem point (fingering) has changed everything about this tune. Before I could play it only very slowly. Finally today I was able to raise the tempo. Not smooth yet but at least I got past the wall. Now it's no different than my discomfort when first learning VE.

I had a nice practice time just working on this and playing the head with two handed voicings.

It would be nice if I actually got comfortable with it by the next ABF recital. I've never really worked on this tune long enough. I start then stop when I encounter the wall.
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#1441364 - 05/22/10 01:08 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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I can't hardly make out the piano here but here's Coltrane with Body and Soul and you'll hear the 3rds/minor 3rds chord movement at the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_dL3EaJJNA
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#1441366 - 05/22/10 01:13 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
etcetra Offline
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I think learning the Coltrane's solo on giant steps can help you with your fingering. I realized that I wasn't able to play that solo if I used the kind of fingering I am used to.

Also, some people have suggested learning things with "wrong fingerings" for practice sake.. so that you can be more flexible with your fingerings when you play. A friend of mine is actually working on learning chopin etude in all 12keys using the same fingering smile

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#1441369 - 05/22/10 01:17 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: etcetra]
jazzwee Offline
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Originally Posted By: etcetra
I think learning the Coltrane's solo on giant steps can help you with your fingering. I realized that I wasn't able to play that solo if I used the kind of fingering I am used to.

Also, some people have suggested learning things with "wrong fingerings" for practice sake.. so that you can be more flexible with your fingerings when you play. A friend of mine is actually working on learning chopin etude in all 12keys using the same fingering smile


I read in Tristano's biography that his students were taught to play scales and everything in every combination of fingers. I remember reading that the idea was to not let your physical limitations affect the musical ideas. Or something like that.

So I hear you. But this was a multi-year exercise...So I think I'll just deal with issues as they come.

Do you have snippet that might be a good thing to focus on? (Rather than studying the whole solo).


Edited by jazzwee (05/22/10 01:19 AM)
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#1441375 - 05/22/10 01:33 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Transcription of Coltrane Solo

http://www.lucaspickford.com/transgs.htm

Etcetra, just reading how he handled F#7 BMaj7 already clarified the fingering choice. Thanks for the tip!
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#1441381 - 05/22/10 01:44 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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WHOA! I found a better version of the transcription where each progression is shown for 11 choruses. And Coltrane played F#7 the same way in 8 of them. E F# G# A#. And the B was played the same in at least half the cases and then the rest were the same pattern but some notes were skipped.

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#1441428 - 05/22/10 04:05 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee


Sure! But is this a test? Then you should post it too. wink Here's that Rainy Day is good for solo piano. It's actually one we should work on to study reharms. I've never reharmed this but it would be a nice project.

Not a test, but nice tunes to consider that don't f@ck with the brain as much. And I'll see if I can work on them and maybe post something. Reharm is what I like doing too much, instead I think I'll instead look at extending the harmony and filling in the gaps.
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

Coltrane made a version of Body and Soul where he substituted his Giant Steps-like changes at the end. I've forgotten how it goes now as it's been awhile. Maybe someone can find it on YouTube. So you could go on a gig and someone can call 'Body and Soul - Coltrane Changes'.

Now that's cool. I'll see if I can find a version to hear.
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#1441431 - 05/22/10 04:10 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: etcetra]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Originally Posted By: etcetra

Also, some people have suggested learning things with "wrong fingerings" for practice sake.. so that you can be more flexible with your fingerings when you play. A friend of mine is actually working on learning chopin etude in all 12keys using the same fingering smile


That would be a challenge. Which etude? How does one play Dbmaj scale with Cmaj or Fmaj fingering?!? Does your friend have extraordinarily long and flexible thumbs?
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#1441434 - 05/22/10 04:24 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
WHOA! I found a better version of the transcription where each progression is shown for 11 choruses. And Coltrane played F#7 the same way in 8 of them. E F# G# A#. And the B was played the same in at least half the cases and then the rest were the same pattern but some notes were skipped.


I remember this transcription. It's easy to see because whoever transcribed it laid it out like a score with each chorus stacked on top of the other. It goes to show that improvisation doesn't always have to invent note for note, but rather, and more likely, it is more a process of stringing together prelearned and prepracticed ideas.

I think it's like typing in that good typists know where to put their fingers not to just type individual letters, but to already have a muscle memory for certain combinations of letters making words and sentences as fast as they can speak them. Bad typists like me still have to practice those combinations. Really bad typists are still hunting and pecking with two fingers.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1441509 - 05/22/10 08:37 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Originally Posted By: etcetra

Also, some people have suggested learning things with "wrong fingerings" for practice sake.. so that you can be more flexible with your fingerings when you play. A friend of mine is actually working on learning chopin etude in all 12keys using the same fingering smile


That would be a challenge. Which etude? How does one play Dbmaj scale with Cmaj or Fmaj fingering?!? Does your friend have extraordinarily long and flexible thumbs?


You have to use some awkward "jumps" to make it work. I haven't done all keys but I find the OP10#2 to be very good exercise even if you can't play it at tempo.

Jazzwee

I learned about 4 chorus worth, and I still remember like the first two. It seems like everything he plays after the 2nd chorus is a variation on the first 2 chorus anyways.

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