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#1445892 - 05/29/10 08:38 AM 1908 Bush and Lane - restore or retire?
everbloom Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/25/10
Posts: 2
Hi,

First-time poster, long-time lurker.

I inherited Grandma's piano - an old Bush and Lane - and it's been my primary instrument for 12 years. It's beautiful to look at, but not fun to play.

I've had some restoration work done - new hammers installed, can't remember what else - which helped. However, my forearms easily tire after a song or two. It seems like the hammer doesn't strike as quickly as it should and I can never really play forte.

Is it possible to make this old piano respond better? My 9-year-old daughter is becoming quite good and I'd like her to have a quality instrument.

Thanks,

Amy

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#1445981 - 05/29/10 11:16 AM Re: 1908 Bush and Lane - restore or retire? [Re: everbloom]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4441
Loc: San Jose, CA
Your tech may be able to help you some... but there is a limit, practically and financially. 102 years old is well beyond the design life of the instrument.

When you are 102 years old yourself, you will know what this means.

Why don't you take a shopping trip or two, just to try out new (or at least newer) pianos? See how they sound, how they feel. It may help you make up your mind.

There may be someplace or someone who would like to have a handsome and playable old instrument, who won't expect it to perform to a level (with two active players) that it just can't. I think your grandmother would be happy to see you and your daughter have a piano that will last long enough to come down to your own grandchildren... and I hope they play, as you have.
_________________________
Clef


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#1446034 - 05/29/10 12:14 PM Re: 1908 Bush and Lane - restore or retire? [Re: Jeff Clef]
Eric Gloo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1266
Loc: Richfield Springs, New York
From your description, it sounds like the action is out of regulation. Is this a grand or an upright?
_________________________
Eric Gloo
Piano Technician
Certified Dampp-Chaser Installer
Richfield Springs, New York

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#1446141 - 05/29/10 03:34 PM Re: 1908 Bush and Lane - restore or retire? [Re: Eric Gloo]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5326
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Have somebody regulate the thing. This should have been done when the hammers were replaced. If the regulation is not acceptable then find out why or another technician.

We just finished rebuilding a B&L of this vintage. It got new hammers, dampers and a few miscellaneous action felts and leathers—all the usual stuff. It also got a new pinblock, some basic bridge repairs and an epoxy treatment on the soundboard (as described in the past on one of these lists).

I’ll happily compare a competently (rebuilt) 100 year old B&L to any new upright piano of any size, shape or price. Most folks, I think, will come away thoroughly impressed with the B&L and wondering why modern upright pianos don’t come close to the performance of a century-old piano.

I now have another (slightly newer) B&L upright now under construction with basically the same work being done. This one has also been refinished. It will be for sale soon and the asking price will be well into the teens. It will be worth every dollar and if the track record means anything at all I doubt we’ll have much trouble selling it. Even in our market. Quality still shows even after 100 years.

There are only a few upright pianos we will consider rebuilding either for a client or for spec (resale) with little reservation—Bush & Lane is one of them.

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#1446142 - 05/29/10 03:36 PM Re: 1908 Bush and Lane - restore or retire? [Re: Eric Gloo]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5326
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Eric Gloo
From your description, it sounds like the action is out of regulation. Is this a grand or an upright?

B&L did make a few grands of average design and construction but, when one speaks of Bush & Lane today it is nearly always in reference to their outstanding uprights.

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#1446149 - 05/29/10 03:49 PM Re: 1908 Bush and Lane - restore or retire? [Re: Jeff Clef]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5326
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Jeff Clef
Your tech may be able to help you some... but there is a limit, practically and financially. 102 years old is well beyond the design life of the instrument.

When you are 102 years old yourself, you will know what this means.

Why don't you take a shopping trip or two, just to try out new (or at least newer) pianos? See how they sound, how they feel. It may help you make up your mind.

There may be someplace or someone who would like to have a handsome and playable old instrument, who won't expect it to perform to a level (with two active players) that it just can't. I think your grandmother would be happy to see you and your daughter have a piano that will last long enough to come down to your own grandchildren... and I hope they play, as you have.

You are quite right; 102 years is beyond the anticipated life of the old upright. For every rule, however, there are always exceptions and this is one of them.

In the mix of often mediocre piano designs and during an age when many manufacturers were trying desperately to lower their cost of production—sound familiar?—Bush & Lane stood out with both competent design and excellent build quality and materials.

True, there are some parts of the design that can be improved. A competent designing rebuilder can easily handle most of these. Most rebuilders now know how to replace pinblocks without dismantling the whole piano. The epoxy surface-saturation techniques I’ve written of before and elsewhere does an excellent job of stabilizing and stiffening the original soundboard. Bridges are usually found to be in good condition and even if they have deteriorated they can be recapped.

New action parts—if needed—are available from Tokiwa. These actions used the dreaded brass rails but I’ve never encountered one in a B&L that was breaking. Even if this does prove to be a problem the original rails can be modified to handle standard wood flanges. Ronsen cold-pressed hammers using Bacon felt are very close to the originals. If something with a bit more attack brilliance is desired Ronsen/Wurzen felt hammers are excellent.

I can only wish that I could be fixed up as easily to perform better than I did in my prime.

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#1446202 - 05/29/10 05:42 PM Re: 1908 Bush and Lane - restore or retire? [Re: Del]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4441
Loc: San Jose, CA
Well, the OP did ask if this piano could be made to perform better.

My only caveat would be that not every rebuilder is Del.

Generally, of pianos of this vintage (except maybe Steinway and Mason, and I'm not sure if this includes even their uprights) it is said not to make financial sense to rebuild. The cost of rebuilding exceeds the market value by a good margin. In cases where the piano is an heirloom or of sentimental value and cost is not a consideration, it's another story.

Well, our first-time poster has some choices to think over.

Hey--- wish I could order a new knee and some spinal discs from Tokiwa. And some more hair, and a new face...
_________________________
Clef


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#1446359 - 05/29/10 10:35 PM Re: 1908 Bush and Lane - restore or retire? [Re: Jeff Clef]
Piano Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 400
Loc: Southern Ontario,Canada
I have come upon an old Knabe 5'8" grand...strangely the lid disapeared long ago. [its all part of a trade/moving deal] Any one know who can reproduce the lid...or should I trash the piano.
_________________________
Richard, the"Piano Guy"
Piano Moving Tuning & Repair
From London ON to Fort Erie ON

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#1446368 - 05/29/10 10:42 PM Re: 1908 Bush and Lane - restore or retire? [Re: Piano Guy]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21918
Loc: Oakland
You really should start your own topic for this. But if you cannot find a local cabinetmaker who can do this, you could try here.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1446421 - 05/30/10 01:00 AM Re: 1908 Bush and Lane - restore or retire? [Re: Jeff Clef]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5326
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Jeff Clef
My only caveat would be that not every rebuilder is Del.

But rebuilding these old things is not rocket science. If it were I wouldn’t be able to do it! There are lots of rebuilders out there who are quite capable of doing quite nice work these things. Any rebuilder who can do a competent job of the average grand can also do a competent job on a nice old Bush & Lane.


Quote:
Generally, of pianos of this vintage (except maybe Steinway and Mason, and I'm not sure if this includes even their uprights) it is said not to make financial sense to rebuild. The cost of rebuilding exceeds the market value by a good margin. In cases where the piano is an heirloom or of sentimental value and cost is not a consideration, it's another story.

The key words in the above are ”it is said….”

We keep telling ourselves it is impossible to rebuild some of these old uprights and make money on them. And, in many cases—perhaps most—this may well be true. Just as it is with grands. But there are also many exceptions out there. I’m as ready as the next to scrap an upright of mediocre design and sloppy construction. But pianos like the B&L do not fit into this category. Perhaps the market for them is not large but there are still folks out there who value the sound and performance of a great piano. We don’t do a lot of these things but when we do we always sell them for a profit.

I just wish somebody were willing to build a modern version of these things. Complete with an updated scale, soundboard design, plate design, sticker action—the whole thing. It wouldn’t have to be as wide or as deep as the original but it would have to be as tall.


Quote:
Hey--- wish I could order a new knee and some spinal discs from Tokiwa. And some more hair, and a new face...

As do I, as do I!

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#1446438 - 05/30/10 02:55 AM Re: 1908 Bush and Lane - restore or retire? [Re: Del]
Rod Verhnjak Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 3659
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Del

We keep telling ourselves it is impossible to rebuild some of these old uprights and make money on them. And, in many cases—perhaps most—this may well be true. Just as it is with grands. But there are also many exceptions out there. I’m as ready as the next to scrap an upright of mediocre design and sloppy construction. But pianos like the B&L do not fit into this category. Perhaps the market for them is not large but there are still folks out there who value the sound and performance of a great piano. We don’t do a lot of these things but when we do we always sell them for a profit.
ddf


Agreed whome



_________________________
Verhnjak Pianos
Specializing in the Restoration, Refinishing & Maintenance
of Fine Heirloom Pianos

Exclusive Dealer For Charles R. Walter Pianos
www.pianoman.ca
Verhnjak Pianos Facebook


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#1447004 - 05/30/10 11:44 PM Re: 1908 Bush and Lane - restore or retire? [Re: Rod Verhnjak]
everbloom Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/25/10
Posts: 2
Wow - lots of good information here. Thank you so much for your feedback.

Eric, it's an upright.

In my opinion, the finish is still really good and I have the matching bench (which feels very high - but I suppose it's because the piano is very tall.) I know the piano has had serious play because a portion of the sustain pedal has worn away.

Well, it sounds like I need to bring a technician back around. I'm in central Minnesota if anyone here is interested or can refer me.

Really - thank you for your insight and information.

Amy

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#1447252 - 05/31/10 11:35 AM Re: 1908 Bush and Lane - restore or retire? [Re: everbloom]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4441
Loc: San Jose, CA
My first piano (of my own) was one of those old uprights; it looked a lot like the photo from Verhnjak. Not as nice--- it wasn't rebuilt or refinished. I sure did love it, though, and I played the hell out of that thing. It was the next thing to indestructible. I'm glad to know some of them can be kept going.
_________________________
Clef


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#1545601 - 10/28/10 06:52 PM Re: 1908 Bush and Lane - restore or retire? [Re: everbloom]
xanicom Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 1
Loc: oregon
I have been collecting Bush & Lane Player pianos for 10 years now and I would gladly put my pianos up against a same period Steinway. The Bush & Lane has a much more full sound, and in fact, the action used in the Steinway's for many years were indeed the same Wessel, Nickel and Gross actions used by Bush & Lane. Bush & Lane in my opinion is a far superior instrument in the 1915 to 1930 period over any Knabe, Mason Hamlin or Steinway.

Ask any technician who has been in the business for more than 20 years and he will tell you, the best quality pianos were built from 1901 to 1930. After these years, the craftmanship was replaced by automated processes and the use of cheaper materials became more and more prevailent right up to today. It was no longer about the care and quality and all about the dollar.

Keep your Bush & Lane! If you want an instrument that will give you back as much and more as you put into it, then you already have it!

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#1545605 - 10/28/10 06:59 PM Re: 1908 Bush and Lane - restore or retire? [Re: everbloom]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21918
Loc: Oakland
Steinway never used Wessel, Nickel & Gross actions, but the founders of the company worked for Steinway.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1546398 - 10/29/10 05:04 PM Re: 1908 Bush and Lane - restore or retire? [Re: everbloom]
Roger Ransom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 1290
Loc: SouthWest Michigan
I have one B&L that I tune at a church. This church could afford a newer piano but the pianist LOVES the B&L.

It's the biggest piano I've ever worked on, I have to stand on the bench to fully lift the lid. Not a Mammoth but pretty darn big.

The strings are original and sound somewhat tubby and the hammers are pretty hard but it still sounds and plays very good.

In addition, I think it's the easiest piano to tune I've ever encountered. It seems like the pins/strings just know where they need to be. The pins feel just right and they just seem to fall into place so easy I can't believe it. Besides, it stays in tune very well. Then I compare this with a beautiful Baldwin I tune that makes me cringe every time they call me.

I've been trying to get them to have some basic improvements done on it - strings, hammers, regulation etc. It's worth it.

A remarkable piano.
_________________________
Laugh More
Yamaha G7 - Roland FP7

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#1572416 - 12/08/10 01:37 AM Re: 1908 Bush and Lane - restore or retire? [Re: everbloom]
russ2246 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/05/09
Posts: 17
I happen to have a 5'9 Bush & Lane Grand piano that could use restoration. I have attached an image below.

I'm still up in the air as to whether or not I should restore the instrument when I am able to afford it, down the road. However, I believe that beyond the sentimental value the instrument has (my mother purchased it for me), its historical value and its quality is equally comparable to the greats of that piano-making era: Steinway, Knabe, Chickering, etc. Another interesting quirk: it used to be a player piano, but the mechanism has been removed and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference unless you looked under the piano to see where the mechanism would have been and of course the 88 holes that would play the keys.

Of course, I'm merely regurgitating about what I've learned from technicians and so forth when I speak of Bush & Lane's quality. However, I also realize that should I have this piano rebuilt and restored, I will pay a greater sum than just getting rid of the instrument and buying a newer, decent piano. However, if I do indeed restore the piano, I will have the equivalent of a new piano and I will be able to keep the legacy of the instrument alive.

It's a difficult choice, but I think it comes down to what your heart and your wallet can agree on.

I'll be able to decide in a few more years. The local restorer in my area wanted about $20,000 to restore and rebuild the instrument. I'm not sure how reasonable this is, or if I shopped around, how the quality would compare... ideas?
_________________________
-------------------------------------
Proud owner of a 5'9 Bush & Lane Grand Piano
and a Roland RD-700GX.

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#1572525 - 12/08/10 08:16 AM Re: 1908 Bush and Lane - restore or retire? [Re: everbloom]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
I like many of these old pianos. The old Grinell upright included. Of course, I may a little bit partial seeing as they were both made right here in Michigan but, most of them are "grand" sounding pianos even at 100 years old.

Depending on how much money a potential investor wishes to invest into the piano, it can turn out to be a marvelous instrument. I like to tell people to look at the size of the case parts. Cheek blocks, fall board, legs, bench, lid etc... Then go to your local store and compare the size difference to a brand new piano. Everything is a fraction of the width. Also compare what wood is used today. So much of the wood used now is particle board type material and just plain cheap by comparison that there really is no comparison to the quality of these old pianos. Personally, I don't think their grands were as nice as their uprights were but, opinions vary.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1572531 - 12/08/10 08:23 AM Re: 1908 Bush and Lane - restore or retire? [Re: everbloom]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
A customer of mine has an old Bush & Lane upright. I swear that front panel weights 100 pounds.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1572928 - 12/08/10 08:03 PM Re: 1908 Bush and Lane - restore or retire? [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5326
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
Depending on how much money a potential investor wishes to invest into the piano, it can turn out to be a marvelous instrument. I like to tell people to look at the size of the case parts. Cheek blocks, fall board, legs, bench, lid etc... Then go to your local store and compare the size difference to a brand new piano. Everything is a fraction of the width. Also compare what wood is used today. So much of the wood used now is particle board type material and just plain cheap by comparison that there really is no comparison to the quality of these old pianos. Personally, I don't think their grands were as nice as their uprights were but, opinions vary.

Bush & Lane was noted primarily for the quality and performance of their vertical pianos. This is about the only vertical piano we will rebuild on spec for resale. I’ll pass on Steinway, M&H and Knabe uprights—I can’t recover my investment—but will pick up most any B&L.

I’ve also rebuilt a couple of B&L grands. I agree with Eric, their grands were not quite in the same league as their verticals. You can tell where their hearts were—it was the uprights that they lavished their creative talents on. Still, B&L grands were no slouches. The last B&L grand we rebuilt on spec went for just under $25K to a piano teacher who was originally in the market for a new or lightly used Steinway L. (The Model O had not yet been reincarnated but, since of the two the L was the better of the two designs, I’ve no doubt she would still have chosen the B&L.) She just preferred the way it played and sounded.

To be sure there were a few changes made to the original design but they weren’t extensive; the original was pretty well thought out. As with everything B&L the grands are solidly and nicely built.

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#1573658 - 12/09/10 10:55 PM Re: 1908 Bush and Lane - restore or retire? [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Little_Blue_Engine Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 1239
Loc: Ohio, US
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
... I like to tell people to look at the size of the case parts. Cheek blocks, fall board, legs, bench, lid etc... Then go to your local store and compare the size difference to a brand new piano. Everything is a fraction of the width...

I think that's part of the allure of the old uprights visually. Beyond the ornamentation or carvings the proportions of all the case parts to each other was just more pleasing to look at. Its one of those things people often don't notice (or don't realize that they notice) When we like or dislike the way something looks and aren't sure why it is often a matter of proportions.
_________________________
I'll figure it out eventually.
Until then you may want to keep a safe distance.


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#1573674 - 12/09/10 11:32 PM Re: 1908 Bush and Lane - restore or retire? [Re: everbloom]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Oh, you're absolutely right Blue. I service an old Weber 1884 upright with carvings on the whole piano that you would not believe. Just a beautiful looking piano. I love it. It tunes better than most pianos of today!
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1574978 - 12/11/10 08:45 PM Re: 1908 Bush and Lane - restore or retire? [Re: everbloom]
russ2246 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/05/09
Posts: 17
I have taken my post to create another thread, so as not to further interrupt this thread, here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1574977.html#Post1574977

Thanks
-Russ


Edited by russ2246 (12/11/10 08:46 PM)
_________________________
-------------------------------------
Proud owner of a 5'9 Bush & Lane Grand Piano
and a Roland RD-700GX.

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