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#1441573 - 05/22/10 11:04 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: etcetra]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
What's funny is that I've been overthinking what to do on F#7 B, coming up with all the variations and encountering fingering issues, and Coltrane just plays E F# G# A# all the time smile

Most of it are arpeggios and pentatonics in alternating up and down patterns.
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#1441660 - 05/22/10 02:10 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: etcetra]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: etcetra


You have to use some awkward "jumps" to make it work. I haven't done all keys but I find the OP10#2 to be very good exercise even if you can't play it at tempo.

Hmmm, this sounds something along the lines of Ugly Tennis. The idea is to make things work despite the obviously 'wrong' technique. Looks interesting!
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Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1441662 - 05/22/10 02:11 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
What's funny is that I've been overthinking what to do on F#7 B, coming up with all the variations and encountering fingering issues, and Coltrane just plays E F# G# A# all the time smile

Most of it are arpeggios and pentatonics in alternating up and down patterns.


But hey, I thought you said that you didn't want to do that (arpeggios/patterns) in any case. Back to work, JW.

And for what it's worth, playing in C# or F# on the tenor sax is much trickier than C or F or most other keys, so I wouldn't doubt Coltrane wouldn't want to find some easier thing there to let his brain and fingers relax for a bit.
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#1441932 - 05/23/10 12:59 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
What's funny is that I've been overthinking what to do on F#7 B, coming up with all the variations and encountering fingering issues, and Coltrane just plays E F# G# A# all the time smile

Most of it are arpeggios and pentatonics in alternating up and down patterns.


But hey, I thought you said that you didn't want to do that (arpeggios/patterns) in any case. Back to work, JW.


No, I don't do patterns well so I'm playing it like I do anything else. If not played too fast (like 150), it's pretty reasonable. Where I'm getting excited is phrasing possibilities. Everyone does the streaming continuous eighth notes. I'm listening to versions from guys like Kenny Werner (solo piano) and he plays some really interesting melodies on this and unexpected phrasing with lots of space.
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#1443123 - 05/25/10 01:28 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
Guys this is hilarious!! Just watch...

"How to swing in jazz":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR07psWI02k

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#1443471 - 05/25/10 03:27 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Wizard of Oz]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz
Guys this is hilarious!! Just watch...

"How to swing in jazz":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR07psWI02k


Why is this hilarious?
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Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1443968 - 05/26/10 11:30 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Giant Steps update -- pretty comfortable now up to 180bpm. Practicing at 200bpm (metronome at 2/4 feels better).

Anyone else joining in here?

I've avoided working on this other than occasional dabbling. But when you sink your teeth into it, it's not that bad.
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#1446420 - 05/30/10 12:50 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Hey, you guys have given up already? I haven't. I'm having lots of fun trying out new concepts like looking for some horizontal ideas over Giant Steps changes (seems impossible).

I've developed a lot just from pushing myself with the complex tunes that we've tried here. Sometimes I'm amazed at how quickly I've improved. Weeks for getting frustrated over Very Early is now transformed into subconscious playing. Love it.

Same with Giant Steps. More brain power can be spent on the musicality aspects of this.

Share some variations of Giant Steps with us like Beeboss did. Or some of the other tunes we've already worked on.
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#1446478 - 05/30/10 05:23 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Its great when you feel that hard work you have done makes your playing feel easier.
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#1446589 - 05/30/10 12:33 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Its great when you feel that hard work you have done makes your playing feel easier.


I'm copying from you Beeboss. I find I'm not interested in posting something I can already do. I get better when I try something I can't or at least have difficulty with. And somehow exposing it here makes the mistakes more obvious for some reason, which makes correcting them much simpler.

But maybe we're both unique here since like me, you often post without regard for ego. Seeing how you develop, I like that style of pushing oneself. It maybe too stressful a model for others (because of the public nature).

BTW - I find VE to be more difficult than Giant Steps. VE changes were very hard to remember and that was the biggest issue for me. GS is just fast and it's hard to develop ideas and not be mechanical at 250. So I just play it slower.

I'll probably post a version of Giant Steps (Solo Piano). Solo piano has it's challenges...it is so exposed.

I was playing Here's That Rainy Day day yesterday since Scep was challenging me on it, and it's a simple tune IMHO, even to solo over. I don't have it memorized so I can only play it with a Real Book open but I don't see how this is more difficult than something like ATTYA.
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#1446593 - 05/30/10 12:41 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Beeboss, do you play any Chick tunes like Windows, Spain, Tones for Joans Bones, etc.?

I'd like to work on improving my Windows. Maybe VE got me on a 3/4 mood here.
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#1446635 - 05/30/10 02:23 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
For me I think Giant steps is harder, maybe because everybody has done a giant steps it is almost impossible to find something that hasn't been done already by somebody. VE on the other hand, because the chord sequence is more interesting to me, helps my ideas come out quite easily.

I've played all those Chick tunes before, and a few others, but never really worked at them at all, just played through them badly.
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#1447050 - 05/31/10 01:41 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: beeboss
For me I think Giant steps is harder, maybe because everybody has done a giant steps it is almost impossible to find something that hasn't been done already by somebody.


First of all thanks for posting your version GS as that got me started on re-exploring this.

I was listening to several solo piano versions that I happen to have, and it gave me a different feel to this tune than I usually get. One of the versions is Kenny Werner's (Meditations Album). He skips comping a lot of chords so sometimes it was hard to know where he was on the form initially, but it was fascinating because he overlayed so many ideas that crossed through big chunks of chords with a broad brush idea. It opened my eyes a little bit. Too bad I can't find a version of it on Youtube as it might be interesting for comparison's sake if you can spare 0.99 cents.

I'm trying to apply some of that style of broad melodic approaches to playing GS but I don't have the concentration to pull it off. And I'm reacting to the moment and not playing anything pre-contrived. So sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Werner wasn't playing it particularly fast BTW, maybe 170. I seem to have success at implementing some of the concept at 150 and unreliably all the way to 200. But when the fast tempo sets in then some of the automaton type stuff comes in and I'm trying to avoid that. So slowers seems to work.

Kenny does a similar thing on My Romance where he overlays a completely new melody over the changes but starts the melody in the middle of the changes so you suddenly forget what tune you're in. And then it goes back.

The other thing is I'm trying to come up with something passable on the LH. GS is not a solo piano piece so it doesn't lend itself well to this smile

We'll see how it goes.

Originally Posted By: beeboss

I've played all those Chick tunes before, and a few others, but never really worked at them at all, just played through them badly.


Hard to believe BB. Knowing your skill and your modesty, I'm sure we're talking about some level of 'bad' that I couldn't hear. wink

Is something like Windows really so hard that no one seems to suggest it? Sure I've worked on it for a long time and I'm unsatisfied, but I'm new at this in comparison to most of you.
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#1447121 - 05/31/10 05:38 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
I remember when I was at college Kenny Werner came in to do a workshop. He did this exercise where he reharmonized My Romance from the random bass notes that people were giving him from the audience. I have never seen anything like that before or since. The control he had over the harmony was amazing.
There have been lots of ideas of tunes to work on suggested over the previous pages but they never seem to develop into anything. I understand that working out and recording some tunes is actually a bit like hard work though.
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#1447295 - 05/31/10 12:43 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: beeboss
I remember when I was at college Kenny Werner came in to do a workshop. He did this exercise where he reharmonized My Romance from the random bass notes that people were giving him from the audience. I have never seen anything like that before or since. The control he had over the harmony was amazing.


Someone actually explained that to me on the reharm side so it's more of a formula. I haven't worked it out though. It's apparently the basis of a lot of the comping he does with Toots Theilemans in their duo albums.

What I'm talking about is the melody side. Remember a song like Row-Row-Your-Boat and everyone starts the melody at a different point?

He starts a different counter melody at the middle of the tune, which somehow stays in the form. So it sounds like it's a different tune with the beginning and end somewhere in the middle. It's an amazing application of what I've been calling horizontal playing.

The reason I mention this is that you mentioned that everyone has done the same thing on Giant Steps. I found something here that's a little different.


Originally Posted By: beeboss

There have been lots of ideas of tunes to work on suggested over the previous pages but they never seem to develop into anything. I understand that working out and recording some tunes is actually a bit like hard work though.


It seems like there has to be at least two people on it to get people started. When you posted GS, and Scep said he'll post a concept of GS related to triads, then I started to do something with it too. But then nothing happened and I already started. So I'm just going to record something when I get a chance.

Remember, though, that it takes me much longer. I'm not as advanced.

But I'm ready to start something new.
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#1447339 - 05/31/10 01:42 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
KlinkKlonk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 351
I worked on GS a half year ago or so, trying to get it up to 300-318 bpm which was the speed on the Aebersold play along with Ron Carter, I worked rather hard on it, but that tempo is ridiculous, so shelved it for now, I'll try and record something tomorrow and see if I can contribute.

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#1447366 - 05/31/10 02:18 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: KlinkKlonk]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
I did find Kenny Werner and Chris Potter playing Gianst Steps as a duo on youtube.
Pretty mind bending...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lx2I113XROw
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#1447404 - 05/31/10 03:25 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
I'll post something soon. I've got lots of 1st take cuts of the following tunes GS, My Romance, Here's that Rainy Day, Miss Jones, Byebye Blackbird, Very Early, etc. Been busy with company for the last 3 weeks so hard to download these days. Maybe something tonight, ok?
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#1447405 - 05/31/10 03:25 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: KlinkKlonk]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: KlinkKlonk
I worked on GS a half year ago or so, trying to get it up to 300-318 bpm which was the speed on the Aebersold play along with Ron Carter, I worked rather hard on it, but that tempo is ridiculous, so shelved it for now, I'll try and record something tomorrow and see if I can contribute.


Haha! smile It is ridiculous and is probably why Coltrane resorted to pattern playing. I have two takes of Coltrane doing the original and it is pretty obvious that it he's using the same ideas. If you listened to both takes, it's just rearranged.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised since the transcription shows the repetitions between choruses. But what is one to expect when playing at such an impossible tempo?

Looking forward to that Klink. From me, expect something slow.
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#1447408 - 05/31/10 03:27 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: beeboss
I did find Kenny Werner and Chris Potter playing Gianst Steps as a duo on youtube.
Pretty mind bending...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lx2I113XROw



My fingers are already hurting just from listening smile
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#1447411 - 05/31/10 03:29 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
I'll post something soon. I've got lots of 1st take cuts of the following tunes GS, My Romance, Here's that Rainy Day, Miss Jones, Byebye Blackbird, Very Early, etc. Been busy with company for the last 3 weeks so hard to download these days. Maybe something tonight, ok?


First takes are best. This is not the thread for finished products...
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#1447426 - 05/31/10 03:54 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
Originally Posted By: beeboss
I did find Kenny Werner and Chris Potter playing Gianst Steps as a duo on youtube.
Pretty mind bending...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lx2I113XROw



Sick! Here's another mind boggling version:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3W_bRtc75GA

No way I"m tackling GS, have fun guys!

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#1447557 - 05/31/10 06:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Wizard of Oz]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz

No way I"m tackling GS, have fun guys!


Sissy! smile smile smile
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#1447606 - 05/31/10 07:25 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
KlinkKlonk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 351
Argh you've gotten me to compulsively play along with this track now, not sure I even like this tune.=p

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#1447663 - 05/31/10 08:41 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: KlinkKlonk]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: KlinkKlonk
Argh you've gotten me to compulsively play along with this track now, not sure I even like this tune.=p


smile No. I don't use playalongs...(you've just proved to me why).

Everybody should be able to play this. The question is just what tempo.
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#1447768 - 06/01/10 12:30 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
This was just a snippet of a practice session. This is what I sound like -- sped up smile

For some reason, the Yammie P-155 converted the recording to some unbelievable speed here (sounds like 300 at least). I actually recorded at 200. So the notes are me but the speed isn't. So now I won't be intimidated by all of your fast fingers...LOL.

Giant Steps Superspeed
http://www.box.net/shared/6rxavp1vss

Next time I post it will be super slow.
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#1447850 - 06/01/10 05:54 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Interesting, it shows how your lines would be if your fingers and brain worked faster, and they would be pretty interesting.
I have often thought that the great players are just like the rest of us but their brains just run faster.
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#1447889 - 06/01/10 08:02 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
KlinkKlonk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 351
jazzwee I like the flow of your lines, sounds organic, which I think is tough with this tune due to the stressing harmonic rythm, especially at a fast tempo.

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#1447925 - 06/01/10 09:32 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: KlinkKlonk]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2940
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Hey JW,

I listened to your snippet. I thought it was really nice. Especially the 1st half. The lines were long and melodic, the way I like them.

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#1448008 - 06/01/10 11:46 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
KlinkKlonk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 351

http://www.divshare.com/download/11557528-d23 Aaalmost there, you may find a few repeated ideas in there, lol. It's two merged tracks that both turned out pretty decent.

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