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#1399779 - 03/20/10 03:34 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

Just from listening to different versions here, I've been torn among different choices of tempo, swing/non-swing, rubato/strict time, faster/slower, 4/4-6/8. Unfortunately until I started hearing from all of you, I really didn't know what it could sound like.

Other tunes, like a complex-Dolphin Dance, at least has a "reference". I can see though that from the range available with 7notemode's version and Beeboss, one could jam on this all day using different styles.

...as tears well up in his eyes he bravely points out that he too recorded a version of Nef...and in fact was the first to suggest doing it, and then recorded it, warts and all...but all to be forgotten with the likes of 7 and Beeboss stealing his thunder...sniff...oh well, his mom still loves him (well, probably).

So, just to bring this back to the original intention I had:

I'm more curious about some of the processes that went on during the learning/playing of this piece from bee and 7 now. For my ears it seems the Beeboss didn't really take it further out, but rather back in using certain angular modal sounds in many places. I'm also curious about the opening strummed chords. Again, I didn't have a real chance to analyze it, but was wondering if you actually went through all the changes in the tune, and if so, I'd be interested in how you played them with one hand. It seemed they were mostly triads? Upper structures? I'll have to listen again.

And for 7: Are you finished with the tune now? You mentioned back on Feb 20th or so that you like to play lots of tunes, not worrying about perfection, etc. So does that mean that Nef is shelved for another tune or tunes now? I ask because I've found myself now a bit obsessed with really, really learning this tune, and have found it helpful listening to your and bees version and some of the various insights about swing etc.

So, people, what is up with the tune? Anyone care to repost an update? I promised to awhile back, and will, but my recording opportunities are a bit sparce when the family is around.

I'd also like to hear etcetra and Wiz and Knotty and Inlanding's and any lurker's versions too. Jazzwee, you said this weekend, right?

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Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1399856 - 03/20/10 09:00 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1188
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy


I'm more curious about some of the processes that went on during the learning/playing of this piece from bee and 7 now. For my ears it seems the Beeboss didn't really take it further out, but rather back in using certain angular modal sounds in many places. I'm also curious about the opening strummed chords. Again, I didn't have a real chance to analyze it, but was wondering if you actually went through all the changes in the tune, and if so, I'd be interested in how you played them with one hand. It seemed they were mostly triads? Upper structures? I'll have to listen again.



Hi Sceptical,
You are quite right that i didn't take it further out. Those chords are quite out there already and it was the most i could do just to make the changes. I can't remember exactly what i played but any one handed voicings were probably just the standard ones, mainly 4 note voicings I expect. I used the real book changes without listening to the original version.
I do know the original quite well anyway but i didn't go through it working out Herbies voiciings or anything. It is truly a groundbreaking recording i think, where the rhythm section does the improvisation and the soloists just play through the tune. I have read that the recording was in fact just a rehearsal with the band trying out the tune which is why they played it like that and that the conception wasn't really a deliberate thing, but i don't know how true that is. The idea that the classic recording is just a first play through is a bit frightening.
The strumming bit at the beginning is just something i am having fun with now i have a grand piano with 3 pedals. That opens up a load of great possibilities for me. The chords I just extracted from the tune, the Ab maj, B maj maybe Db maj more or less. I just love intros and outros, its great to have a bit of freedom from the tyranny of the proper changes.
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#1399898 - 03/20/10 11:01 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Scep, I never forgot you, you were first to get your day in the sun wink You get the first medal thumb and you were the original inspiration.

BTW - as a solo piano concept, I couldn't grasp the idea of the Rhythm section improvising by comping while the soloists played the melody. I couldn't apply it to the piano. Beeboss, created a new and similar concept there by playing the melody as a bass line while comping on top.

Contrasting approaches though, 7Notemode created a more melodic approach while Beeboss was playing more scalar and vertical.

Beeboss, question for you: how much pedal where you using with that? It's difficult to play this with a pedal throughout but you managed to really keep the full resonance going the whole time. Can you explain what you were doing? BTW - I don't have a Sostenuto on my digital or my Steinway.
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#1399963 - 03/20/10 12:36 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
7notemode Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/10/07
Posts: 101
Loc: Raleigh/Durham NC
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
[quote=jazzwee]

And for 7: Are you finished with the tune now? You mentioned back on Feb 20th or so that you like to play lots of tunes, not worrying about perfection, etc. So does that mean that Nef is shelved for another tune or tunes now? I ask because I've found myself now a bit obsessed with really, really learning this tune, and have found it helpful listening to your and bees version and some of the various insights about swing etc.



Well, I thought I was through :-)
I think BB's version is a superior concept because it takes it much further away from the original and to a new sound. When I recorded it, I was thinking be subtractive and make it more 2-5-1 oriented for a more traditional sound and do it in time, more like an exercise. I also did GBPPH at the same time. I'm out of town and haven't had a chance to post it, so I guess I have moved on :-)
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#1399979 - 03/20/10 01:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: beeboss



Hi Sceptical,
You are quite right that i didn't take it further out. I used the real book changes without listening to the original version...
I do know the original quite well anyway but... i didn't go through it working out Herbies voiciings or anything.

...The chords I just extracted from the tune, the Ab maj, B maj maybe Db maj more or less.


Ok, BB, I'm going to call you and 7 on something: Both of you used changes from the book (or a book) that 'dummied down' the actual chords, and made it easier to navigate in a way. The Ab chord you mentioned doesn't actually exist, and neither does the B maj.

Now, don't get me wrong, I thought your take on it was great, and so was 7's BUT I don't think it was 'authentic' or perhaps accurate. To be specific, the Ab chord should not have an Eb as a chord tone, and the B maj should not have an F# in it. I think this is what is going to make the changes either harder or easier to do based upon the understanding of the odd nature of the I chords (Ab and B). Because from what I heard on the original recording, and then confirmed from the link Wiz provided, the I chords are somewhat like other tunes from the period (Blue in Green comes to mind, as does Little B's poem from a little later I think). All three of these tunes treat the opening chord with either the melody being the #11, or the harmony having the #11.


But none of this may matter to anyone. In the very recent past (within two years) I had the idea that what matters most is what I have to say in a tune, rather than what the tune itself has to say--meaning that if I sound good, no matter what it SHOULD sound like, then fine, I'm done with learning the tune. BUT, if I sound good because I neglected to play the changes that are there, or altered the melody (a la 7) to suit my changes, then I'm wondering what that now means. Am I cheating when I do that?

Back in context--I've only just recently been 'hung up' on authenticity, and am still unsure about how important it is. I'm interested in others' thoughts about this.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1399986 - 03/20/10 01:33 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Scep, I hear you on those changes. Maybe that's why it's so difficult to hear the harmony sometimes because I myself am trying to be strict with the applicable chord tones.

Although - unlike you I use 'A' on the G-7b5 and not Ab. I use Ab on the C7Alt. Well I do use Ab as a passing tone on occasion.

I just played a little bit this morning and there's a part of the progression that I keep messing up (Amaj7#11 Eb7(b9)#11 EMaj7). It goes through 3 tonalities so quickly here.
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#1400065 - 03/20/10 03:16 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Scep, I hear you on those changes. Maybe that's why it's so difficult to hear the harmony sometimes because I myself am trying to be strict with the applicable chord tones.

Although - unlike you I use 'A' on the G-7b5 and not Ab. I use Ab on the C7Alt. Well I do use Ab as a passing tone on occasion.

I just played a little bit this morning and there's a part of the progression that I keep messing up (Amaj7#11 Eb7(b9)#11 EMaj7). It goes through 3 tonalities so quickly here.



Well strictly speaking, if I may, you're probably screwing up there because that chord Amaj7#11 doesn't exist in the original. It's over a Bb which changes it's tonality and direction. And as for the A Ab thing, I'm going to let that lie because I'm not sure I can convince you (or anyone else for that matter) that the Gm7b5 is not what you think it is.


And, this might please you: I'm really looking at the ii7b5 in other contexts and seeing where I can put the 9 in, and am liking the sound. I can see how subs from that chord can now lead to other extensions allowing me to play even more modern sounds.

Levine and others are wrong though in that the m7b5 chord cannot and should not always have a b9 in there. There are so many examples of where the b9 definitely is needed, and other times where the 9 is more appropriate.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1400096 - 03/20/10 04:10 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1188
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy


Ok, BB, I'm going to call you and 7 on something: Both of you used changes from the book (or a book) that 'dummied down' the actual chords, and made it easier to navigate in a way. The Ab chord you mentioned doesn't actually exist, and neither does the B maj.

Now, don't get me wrong, I thought your take on it was great, and so was 7's BUT I don't think it was 'authentic' or perhaps accurate. To be specific, the Ab chord should not have an Eb as a chord tone, and the B maj should not have an F# in it.

Back in context--I've only just recently been 'hung up' on authenticity, and am still unsure about how important it is. I'm interested in others' thoughts about this.




Sceptical, my view is that you are analysing this stuff way too much. Maybe I played an Eb in the Abmajb5 chord and maybe not, or maybe sometimes, I don't know. I am just listening to the original now and I have no idea if herbie is using the Eb in his chord voicings of that chord. I have a feeling that he probably is at times. But the I have changes are from the real book so they are probably wrong, maybe in Waynes original part he had written sharp 11 chords, who knows? Even if it did say b5 in the original that wouldn't mean you can't put an Eb in the chord. You can add any extensions you fancy.

In fact now I look into it a little it turns out that there is no copy of waynes original part around and wayne often wrote tunes without chord symbols. Herbie's version of the chords and some chat about them is here...

http://thebadplus.typepad.com/dothemath/2006/02/nefertiti_chord.html


Really it is up to the player what changes and sounds they use, and this is basically a jazz approach. How boring would it be if we were stuck trying to be faithful to the original version? So basically I don't feel I have to stick to the changes at all, or the melody or the rhythm, or the original conception. In fact it is essential to change some stuff to make it your own. But it is usually nice to keep something of the original in there. Of course that is just my view.
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http://www.youtube.com/davebeeboss

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#1400130 - 03/20/10 05:18 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
7notemode Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/10/07
Posts: 101
Loc: Raleigh/Durham NC
I agree BB. Skep, I have been called out many times for changing the chords too much and for changing the melody, which is a big no no for some people. And.. yet...I...keep....doing....it...:-) I tend to react against the written chords and sometimes against the melody, sometimes just going back to the melody enough to give an impression of the the original tune. I caught some flack for this stella for that reason: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFu286OQLkY Oh well.

I think there is a difference between transcribing something exactly for learning purposes and then playing it in your own way. I didn't want to do a transcription of this piece.
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#1400134 - 03/20/10 05:25 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1725
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
.
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2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP5, CP4, Nord Piano 2

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#1400207 - 03/20/10 07:42 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Scep, I hear you on those changes. Maybe that's why it's so difficult to hear the harmony sometimes because I myself am trying to be strict with the applicable chord tones.

Although - unlike you I use 'A' on the G-7b5 and not Ab. I use Ab on the C7Alt. Well I do use Ab as a passing tone on occasion.

I just played a little bit this morning and there's a part of the progression that I keep messing up (Amaj7#11 Eb7(b9)#11 EMaj7). It goes through 3 tonalities so quickly here.



Well strictly speaking, if I may, you're probably screwing up there because that chord Amaj7#11 doesn't exist in the original. It's over a Bb which changes it's tonality and direction. And as for the A Ab thing, I'm going to let that lie because I'm not sure I can convince you (or anyone else for that matter) that the Gm7b5 is not what you think it is.


And, this might please you: I'm really looking at the ii7b5 in other contexts and seeing where I can put the 9 in, and am liking the sound. I can see how subs from that chord can now lead to other extensions allowing me to play even more modern sounds.

Levine and others are wrong though in that the m7b5 chord cannot and should not always have a b9 in there. There are so many examples of where the b9 definitely is needed, and other times where the 9 is more appropriate.



Scep, you're really confusing me here. Part of the difficulty in playing this is that I'm constantly changing the chords and so I stopped doing that. I'm sticking to the one I have, which is AbMaj7#11 not Bb-7b5. Now if I use Bb-7b5, then Eb is appropriate (same as AMaj7#11). Even if this was a plain Amaj7#11, the 4 is not indicated. But yes, the 6th edition real book shows DMaj7/A. So if I don't put my foot down somewhere I'll keep wavering. There is really little difference between AMaj7#11 and Bb-7b5, but 'A' is in the melody so I don't see how it could be correct.

On the G-7b5, I am not a stickler for not using b9 in this context. I just like the 9 here because it contrasts with the use of Ab on the CAlt -- an interesting voice leading. However, half the time I'm sure I'm using the Ab too so don't hold me to it.
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Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
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#1400208 - 03/20/10 07:45 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Dave Ferris]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
Originally Posted By: beeboss

Really it is up to the player what changes and sounds they use, and this is basically a jazz approach.


For more advanced Jazz players this is very common.

Scep-You have a lot to learn about interpretation and the the whole Jazz mentality/approach. Like David said, you are way over analyzing this stuff.

This is not a Classical approach to a Beethoven sonata where if you change a note or voicing it's frowned upon.



Let me just quickly say you are wrong about the whole jazz mentality stuff and me over analyzing. You'd be surprised at what I know. Perhaps reading through the thread and entering into the discussion may help define what you know for me so we can better discuss things?
Unfortunately I can't expand on that right now, but later tonight I'll get into it again. In the meantime, I'm going to play Blue in Green with these opening chords: Bbmaj, Amaj, Dm. I hope that's ok with everyone here. And if so, then yes, I can agree this may work, but really, I think if you were playing with others you may not get asked back again, unless you really understood how the opening chords are supposed to work, and make the necessary adjustments to retain their function.

And you're right Dave, this isn't classical. But why shoot down someone who's looking forward, rather than backwards?

Now, who's here to learn something? If not, why are you here?
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1400211 - 03/20/10 07:55 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
On making changes to the chords, philosophically, my teacher would be very strict in teaching me this that I play the original changes in keeping with the original tune. In fact, he makes a point of studying what he deems to be the important harmonic flow and then learning it that way.

Of course he may later reharmonize the tune, but I think he would do it with a determined purpose. He would not allow me to do it unless there's a specific reason to do so. So in general, I tend to learn it very strictly.

I remember when I first learned Dolphin Dance. My teacher was extremely strict on using the appropriate chords at all times.

Having said this, this tune is not one where the harmony is entirely clear. IMHO, it is driven by the melody and I heard Herbie comp this different ways with different chords. so who's to say which is correct? I would probably say that if the melody is not in conflict, then it's fair game. And that's my teacher's point I think. The melody should drive the reharm choices.

Now the problem with changing concepts of the chords is soloing over the changes. At some point we have to base it on some fixed chords or confusion will reign. I'm at that stage now. Everytime I change the chords, someone shows me a "better" set.

One thing that I was taught, and I'm trying to be consistent here, is to play the chord tones in keeping with the changes I'm trying to follow. Unfortunately, changing the chords will cause me to unlearn everything again.

I think Nefertiti is quite a bit different than GBPPH. In GBPPH, I reharmonized it from moment One. It is ripe for that. But Nef is harmonically vague.

I have a lesson coming up next week and I'll be bringing up Nef for the 1st time. I would really be interested to get some comments from him.

Right now, I'm awfully confused...
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#1400215 - 03/20/10 08:00 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
I hope we don't get into a fight here. So far the discussion has been illuminating.

And BTW - 7notemode, I couldn't judge whether yours or Beeboss' version is better. I really liked both (a LOT) and each headed in completely different directions. Musically, they both hit the mark of being very enjoyable. Seeing that there's no original of this with anyone soloing, I'd say all three of you, including Scep, are breaking new ground here. thumb

I'm just glad to watch the process.
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#1400270 - 03/20/10 09:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1188
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
I hope we don't get into a fight here. So far the discussion has been illuminating.

And BTW - 7notemode, I couldn't judge whether yours or Beeboss' version is better. I really liked both (a LOT) and each headed in completely different directions. Musically, they both hit the mark of being very enjoyable. Seeing that there's no original of this with anyone soloing, I'd say all three of you, including Scep, are breaking new ground here. thumb


Quite right, I want to share opinions not have a competition.
I certainly don't want a fight.
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http://www.youtube.com/davebeeboss

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#1400283 - 03/20/10 09:51 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1188
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy


Let me just quickly say you are wrong about the whole jazz mentality stuff and me over analyzing. You'd be surprised at what I know. Perhaps reading through the thread and entering into the discussion may help define what you know for me so we can better discuss things?


Hi Sceptical, I feel you may have misunderstood what I was saying so I thought I should add a bit more.
Analysis is good, very good, the deeper the better, but at practice time. When it comes to actually playing and making the music then if I am thinking to much about some technical thing then this will hamper my ability to be in the moment and be will possibly actually ruin the music. Nobody in the audience can tell if I play the chord thats written on the chart, what they want is good music and that is what I should be concentrating on.

I can tell straight away that you do know lots of theory, that is quite evident from hearing a few of your recordings. That is all good, nobody can know too much theory. All I am saying is that personally I like players who take liberties with the tune and take it somewhere different and new, and if that means changing the harmony or even destroying the harmony then I am all for it. That is not to say that we shouldn't know as far as possible the original changes and tune, if we do then ripping it apart is a creative choice. We are allowed to break rules or make up our own ones (unless the jazz police are watching that is).

This is all just my opinion, I don't think there is a right or wrong about it, everyone has their own point of view regarding the jazz tradition.
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#1400339 - 03/20/10 11:51 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
7notemode Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/10/07
Posts: 101
Loc: Raleigh/Durham NC
As far as changing things...
For study, adhering to the composer's original intent is the best learning tool (mostly)
For playing with others, adhering to the real book or a common chart is the safest thing to do.
For solo playing, there is more latitude to stray.
There reaches a point in straying that I start to get push back from a subset of listeners. That's OK with me.
On the one hand there can be a such an adherence to the original that there isn't any improvisation at all. On the other hand, it can go so far out that nobody recognizes the tune at all.
I try to stay somewhere between those extremes. :-)
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#1400346 - 03/20/10 11:55 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: 7notemode]
7notemode Offline
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Registered: 06/10/07
Posts: 101
Loc: Raleigh/Durham NC
Maybe I should have said, I like BB's version better. That is not self effacing, because in general, I really like my playing..a lot. It brings me much pleasure. That said, on rare occasions, I like what someone else does better....haha! Way to go BB!
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#1400355 - 03/21/10 12:05 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: 7notemode]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Beeboss and 7notemode -- well said.

Now back to topic, early on there was discussion by Wiz and others about horizontal playing of this tune in Ab. Well, I didn't hear that at all from anyone. In fact, I would say I heard mostly vertical playing and frankly, it was very difficult for me to look for a horizontal connection past the first few bars.

And the progression is so short that there's really little opportunity to build a theme. This is what frustrates me about this.

My point though is that I think it is a misnomer to simplify this tune as Ab. Thoughts?
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#1400402 - 03/21/10 01:43 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: beeboss


Hi Sceptical, I feel you may have misunderstood what I was saying so I thought I should add a bit more.
Analysis is good, very good, the deeper the better, but at practice time. When it comes to actually playing and making the music then if I am thinking to much about some technical thing then this will hamper my ability to be in the moment and be will possibly actually ruin the music.

We are in total agreement then. Analysis in performance is too late, in my estimation. Kind of like learning how to kick a ball with your left foot in a game.

Originally Posted By: beeboss

All I am saying is that personally I like players who take liberties with the tune and take it somewhere different and new, and if that means changing the harmony or even destroying the harmony then I am all for it.

Yup, me too. My trouble though, is that I tend to destroy things first, then reconstruct them. Cubism, like I said before.

Originally Posted By: beeboss

That is not to say that we shouldn't know as far as possible the original changes and tune, if we do then ripping it apart is a creative choice. We are allowed to break rules or make up our own ones (unless the jazz police are watching that is).

Again, 100% agreed

Originally Posted By: beeboss

This is all just my opinion, I don't think there is a right or wrong about it, everyone has their own point of view regarding the jazz tradition.

No, there is a right and a wrong to it. I'm not one to support players that show little insight into what they do. I'm not a traditionalist (like I've said before), and probably know far less about jazz history than most real jazz aficionados, BUT to have someone, anyone suggest that things that certain players do, or have done, or will do is just 'willy nilly creativity without real reason but hey it sounds good but no rules were followed, or will be followed because hey, they are/were/will be beyond all that and soforth' then I don't buy it. And neither should anyone else. Just because someone 'hears a tune in their dreams' or can't otherwise explain what they've written doesn't mean that others can't and shouldn't explain it. Otherwise, what's the point in even discussing chord changes, versions, reharm, etc?


By the way everyone, I've written some guide tones below for every four bars of Nef. These may explain some of my previous rantings.

F, G, Ab, Bb, C, (Db) (D) (Eb) then C7#11 or alt chord as transition to

F, G, Ab, Bb, B, Db, Eb then Bbm7 alt thingy to

F# G#,A, B, C, Db, D, E although this in my mind is all alt material to

(F) G, A, Bb, C Db, Eb (E)

The brackets are the ones that only fit two of the four bars, and every fourth bar poses the problem of a type of V chord that sets up the next set of notes that needs to be treated as some form of altered scale, and can be viewed as a combination of the first set of scale notes and the second set, but more easily viewed as an alt scale.

Does this make any sense to anybody? And if anyone chimes in saying I'm over analyzing again, please don't bother. And Mr. Ferris, you're more than welcome to explain what you said earlier and join the discussion. Lurking and cursing will just make you more indignant. smile
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1400418 - 03/21/10 02:34 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: 7notemode]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: 7notemode
I agree BB. Skep, I have been called out many times for changing the chords too much and for changing the melody, which is a big no no for some people. And.. yet...I...keep....doing....it...:-) I tend to react against the written chords and sometimes against the melody, sometimes just going back to the melody enough to give an impression of the the original tune. I caught some flack for this stella for that reason: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFu286OQLkY Oh well.

I think there is a difference between transcribing something exactly for learning purposes and then playing it in your own way. I didn't want to do a transcription of this piece.

This is interesting (sorry I missed this post earlier). Why do you play tunes? Why do you post to Youtube? Why did you post here?

This isn't meant as an attack as much as it is really my curiosity. Here's my take: People post on Youtube to get reassurances that what they are doing is valid, respected, and hopefully sought after. I read that you don't have the opportunity to gig live, so perhaps Youtube is your gig. This is completely understandable and normal.

Now the question of why do you play tunes the way you (or anyone) does? For enjoyment and self expression among other things I imagine. Who would want to play piano if they didn't find some sort of gratification?

Then, why post something here? You (or anyone) are already are getting what you want and need from the other two sources (playing the way you want to play, and playing it for an audience on Youtube).

My take on this is that if you (or anyone) are sharing your versions of Nef (and hopefully future tunes) with the notion that it is another performance venue rather than a chance to workshop some ideas with other like-minded players, then it will become just that, and everyone will simply congratulate (or not) each others versions of the tune.

I would still rather hear the ideas behind the approach, and the 'working title' versions.

I guess I also hope that people really are trying to keep in the original spirit of the thread (see first post) and really try to grow from sharing ideas and trying others' ideas.

And finally, I suppose this is either my farewell speech or my let's get this thing back on track speech, because I really don't want to just congratulate people for their performances here anymore without having the chance to ask further questions and seek solutions to the complexities of the problems at hand.

And again, to be clear, yes, I enjoy your playing Tom, and Dave BB and others that have posted too. But if I'm going to benefit from what you post, please post with the intention of allowing dialogue to follow.

I hope no offence was taken by anyone. Seriously, no offence intended whatsoever.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1400437 - 03/21/10 03:49 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy

By the way everyone, I've written some guide tones below for every four bars of Nef. These may explain some of my previous rantings.

F, G, Ab, Bb, C, (Db) (D) (Eb) then C7#11 or alt chord as transition to

F, G, Ab, Bb, B, Db, Eb then Bbm7 alt thingy to

F# G#,A, B, C, Db, D, E although this in my mind is all alt material to

(F) G, A, Bb, C Db, Eb (E)



Hey Scep, frankly this is no clearer to me than just figuring out each chord and scale. It almost sounds like we're trying to fit a horizontal concept here when we should be emphasizing the harmony appropriate to each particular chord.

It's kind of like the original statement said earlier that this is all Ab. But unless I'm running through a fast scale through each chord, I tend to believe that each chord has some tones that more important than others and needs to be emphasized.

But perhaps this explains why you're hung up on the 'function' of G-7b5 (yeah I noticed the missing 'A' here). Frankly it sounds good to me with the 'A' and I actually highlight it myself if I remember. But if I don't remember, I'll probably play the Ab.

Anyway, it's just the way I was taught. I'm always open to someone telling me I'm wrong.
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

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#1400447 - 03/21/10 04:32 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: 7notemode]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1188
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: 7notemode
Maybe I should have said, I like BB's version better. That is not self effacing, because in general, I really like my playing..a lot. It brings me much pleasure. That said, on rare occasions, I like what someone else does better....haha! Way to go BB!



7note,

Nice of you to say, but I can hardly agree. I find I am so critical of my own playing that I can't listen to it for pleasure. If I can even tolerate hearing it then it must be good enough. I don't listen in this critical way whilst playing so my critical attitude doesn't affect my enjoyment of playing.
However when I listen to other peoples playing I do not use my critical faculties in the same way, I can just listen to the music without hearing little mistakes jumping out everywhere, which is why I prefer other peoples playing than my own. I can't even begin to compare my playing to other peoples because of this.
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/davebeeboss

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#1400448 - 03/21/10 04:35 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Actually, JW, what I was pointing out was the F, G, Ab, Bb in the first 8 bars, up a semitone for the middle four, and then later an F G A Bb in the last three bars. By lining up the scales that way I can focus on those common notes, not thinking of the scale but the common scale, or guide tones that are present for the groupings of bars. If you look at them line by line it is more confusing and probably of little use.

So earlier I said at one point I was using smaller scales. Do you remember? This is kind of where it lead to. So in summary the small scale is basically the first four notes of a minor scale or TST (tone semitone tone). From there any chromatics I may use will take into consideration these important guide tones.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1400450 - 03/21/10 04:53 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1188
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy

Just because someone 'hears a tune in their dreams' or can't otherwise explain what they've written doesn't mean that others can't and shouldn't explain it. Otherwise, what's the point in even discussing chord changes, versions, reharm, etc?


Sceptical,

How about for fun, or to gain different perspectives?
In so far as I understand what you are saying here then I think I disagree. I don't think you can 'explain' a chord. A chord just is, and ultimately there is no reason why a chord works in a certain place. I love all Wayne Shorter tunes and his playing as well but I don't think I have any chance of explaining it or even really understanding it. What I mean is I can understand what he is playing (I can write down the notes and conceptualize many of the chords and scales arpeggios patterns) but the mystery as to WHY he is playing anything at a given point in time will always continue to be a mystery. That is probably why I love his music so much, that I am always surprised by the turns it takes and the freedom to go anywhere that his music has (most of it anyway). The fact that I don't fully understand it is exactly the reason I find it interesting.
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/davebeeboss

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#1400568 - 03/21/10 12:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy

Otherwise, what's the point in even discussing chord changes, versions, reharm, etc?


Sceptical,

How about for fun, or to gain different perspectives?

I'm not sure why you say this, then disagree with yourself later below. Yes, I find it fun and to gain different perspectives, too, otherwise I wouldn't be doing it.

Or were you responding to 'why post a recording on this forum?'

Originally Posted By: beeboss

In so far as I understand what you are saying here then I think I disagree. I don't think you can 'explain' a chord. A chord just is, and ultimately there is no reason why a chord works in a certain place... (I can write down the notes and conceptualize many of the chords and scales arpeggios patterns).

You're making it sound like music is utterly esoteric for you. In a way, perhaps it is egnimatic, but I'm not sure it's at the level of unexplainable.

I suppose I'm trying to approach it as understandable, at least in terms of what we know already, and what we could further hope to know. The 'fun and perspective gaining' cannot really exist for me without agreeing on what one is talking about. We both know how I and V7 chords function, right? Do you agree that some things sound consonant and others dissonant? It occurs to me that in a way you are talking from the perspective of someone playing folk music in that the chords and melodies are these pure heartfelt gifts from god or where ever, and that it's really all quite beyond you how something can sound so pleasing to the ear. But then I contrast that with the fact that you are a great jazz player, and ALSO you are currently working on Bach a great deal.

Anyways back to perspective:
Perspective can't be gained unless one has an idea about what their current perspective is. If one is always looking at the top of an object, say a cylinder, and yet doesn't know that they are looking at the top, does it make sense to argue that the same object cannot look like a square from the side? Looking at the side gives another perspective to the object. Both together may provide an explanation as to what it actually is one is looking at. Same can be said for chords and melodies in IMHO.
Originally Posted By: beeboss

but the mystery as to WHY he (Shorter) is playing anything at a given point in time will always continue to be a mystery.

Well, from how I see it, the mystery exists only because you want it to then.

Originally Posted By: beeboss

That is probably why I love his music so much, that I am always surprised by the turns it takes and the freedom to go anywhere that his music has (most of it anyway). The fact that I don't fully understand it is exactly the reason I find it interesting.

And this is absolutely ok. But what are we going to talk about then? Praising and idolizing Shorter (or Bach) has its place, but then...? I can't really gain another perspective about what Shorter or others do unless others tell me what they think they understand. I know what I understand (or think I understand), but you're suggesting that you don't know what you understand other than that you can tell me the notes he plays (but not why or how).

Let's leave that aside for just a second. How do you feel about telling me and others how YOU approach playing Shorter's music then? Does that seem more explainable? Maybe that's what we all can do best, and maybe that is where the fun and perspectives are best gained?
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1400572 - 03/21/10 12:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Actually, JW, what I was pointing out was the F, G, Ab, Bb in the first 8 bars, up a semitone for the middle four, and then later an F G A Bb in the last three bars. By lining up the scales that way I can focus on those common notes, not thinking of the scale but the common scale, or guide tones that are present for the groupings of bars. If you look at them line by line it is more confusing and probably of little use.

So earlier I said at one point I was using smaller scales. Do you remember? This is kind of where it lead to. So in summary the small scale is basically the first four notes of a minor scale or TST (tone semitone tone). From there any chromatics I may use will take into consideration these important guide tones.




I do have a difference in approach here and I'm really interested to see what my teacher has to say about this later this week. I'll share what he says and maybe he'll say I'm wrong this time. We'll see. My approaches are based on what I learned from him,

I understand the common tones and some are shared more than others. But I tend to look at them just as a "filler" pool. My ears are focused on a few notes that change the harmony while looking at this pool, otherwise I'd be reneging on the concept of chord tones on downbeats that I was taught.

I see three main shapes, varying slightly from chord to chord. These to me are Ab, E, Db Dim.

But I always strive to highlight the changing chord tones (whether I can execute them on downbeats is another matter but I try), particularly those #11's that abound in this tune.

Maybe it's because of this that it takes me a little longer to absorb a non-functional progression. There's a lot more going on in my thinking and which would be more automatic in a tune with typical ii-V harmony. Yes, I suppose I could simplify and just focus on the common tones and I could sound like I'm playing the changes.

I don't know why but my ears found this unsatisfactory. I'll probably have to cop Beeboss's plea here which is "I don't know why the progression is so...". But given what it is, it only sounded good to me when I was aware of the important chord tones.

Given my discipline here, do you see why using a "limited" scale conflicts with this?

Like I said, I'd be interested to know what a Jazz master's approach would be to such an unusual tune. My guess would be that he'll use the original melody as the structure.
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP
My Blog

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#1400591 - 03/21/10 01:00 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
7notemode Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/10/07
Posts: 101
Loc: Raleigh/Durham NC
[/quote]

Why do you play tunes? Why do you post to Youtube? Why did you post here?

[/quote]

Haha! That reminds me of an old woody allen movie when as a kid he refused to go to school one morning. His mother asked why, and he said, 'because I read that 13 billion years in the future, the earth will crash into the sun and all life as we know it will cease to exist -- so why bother?"

I don't know why I play tunes, except to say that it is a compulsion. I hear things in my head, it flows out my fingers and then I hear it through my ears and it goes back into my head again. It is a very round circle that I am compelled to trace again and again.

I post to youtube as an outlet so there is an external witness to my fixation. The validation is great, but it really doesn't feel like it is about me very much. I'm much more comfortable when someone comments about enjoying the music or the playing instead of commenting on me doing the playing. It is a nuance, but my personality is to stay out of the spotlight. That is why youtube being one step removed has been the perfect outlet for me. That is probably more self revelation than is necessary, but true.

Regarding this thread: (skep asked me what I did on stella earlier)
The thing is, re: Nefertiti or Stella, I don't think in the same way as you and jazzwee. The slicing and dicing of harmonic intricacies really doesn't interest me much. Any sophomore music major can out analyze me when it comes to deconstructing harmony, etc. I am fortunate in that I can play a lot of what I hear (on recordings and inside my head) without the analysis. It mainly goes from hear to play with very little in between. Like with Stella, I would have to go back and figure out after the fact what I was doing to explain it. I don't have that worked out in advance. I do work on an arrangement, but the theory is not what I am focusing on. It works for me, because that is where my aptitude lies. Other people have an 'in' from other directions. I just don't get in to which is the right or wrong way to do it. I don't have strong opinions on stuff like that. When I get back home, I could sit down and tell you what I played on Stella. I doubt I could tell you why I played it. That is pretty evident on my tutorials. I will show what I was playing, but don't offer any 'why', because I really don't have a good answer to that.

T
_________________________
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#1400600 - 03/21/10 01:17 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy

So earlier I said at one point I was using smaller scales. Do you remember? This is kind of where it lead to. So in summary the small scale is basically the first four notes of a minor scale or TST (tone semitone tone). From there any chromatics I may use will take into consideration these important guide tones.

I understand the common tones and some are shared more than others. But I tend to look at them just as a "filler" pool...
But I always strive to highlight the changing chord tones (whether I can execute them on downbeats is another matter but I try), particularly those #11's that abound in this tune.

Um, I think what I wrote was wrong, because I agree with you here to an extent. I don't concentrate on the F G Ab, Bb when I solo, but I keep them in mind as a type of anchor I suppose. Without the CHANGING chord tones (the ones in brackets) then it doesn't go anywhere. So if I may, I'd like to change what I was saying, because reading it today, from your perspective, I can see that I wasn't making myself understood because the concept wasn't fully formed in my head (despite thinking I knew what I was trying to say).
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

Maybe it's because of this that it takes me a little longer to absorb a non-functional progression.

I know the definition of non-functional chords. I'm of the mind now that the definition is obsolete by virtue of the fact that the functions (or non functions) are functional in that they really are some type of harmony acting as either a temporary tonal shift or a very far removed V function.


Originally Posted By: jazzwee

Like I said, I'd be interested to know what a Jazz master's approach would be to such an unusual tune. My guess would be that he'll use the original melody as the structure.

As I am, too to an extent. That's why I'm so hung up on how the chords 'need to be' a certain way, given the melody is what it is.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1400606 - 03/21/10 01:32 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Tom,

You've explained why you play and why you post on Youtube. But what were you seeking by posting a tune here?

Again, I'm just curious, and don't want to dissuade you posting your tunes here by any means.

I'm still looking to find the reasons explaining the creation of the art, especially since so many others have such wonderful results.

You know, it just occurred to me that maybe that this whole thing might be viewed by some people as some sort of 'magicians pact' in that one should never reveal one's secrets. I know that you and Beeboss are genuine and honest in what you say, but I kind of feel like some sort of second rate reality detective show trying to expose the fraud/crime somewhere.

Another thought: Tom you mentioned going to some master classes in the past. I imagine you went to give you some more ideas about how to approach playing? I also imagine that the classes you may have attended that were most beneficial explained something to you in a way that you hadn't previously thought of. Well, this is what I'm hoping for here, except that we're all leading the masterclass and we're all the students too.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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