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#1438010 - 05/16/10 08:10 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2261
Loc: Sydney
Hi Beeboss
Do you have a favourite jazz key ?
I’m curious because I know that you’re also a classical musician.
I think Chopin used Ab major a lot. Maybe he thought it sounded romantic.
And I reckon Brahms is amazing. I didn’t think that A major was a particularly interesting key until I heard his Intermezzo. He manages to make this major key sound pensive and mysterious.

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#1438013 - 05/16/10 08:13 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
BTW Wiz - Go ahead and post Green Dolphin St. I know the tune and I'm sure many others do. Although I already know it, I'm challenged to think of how to do it in Solo piano. I would be glad to get ideas. Maybe like a drone bass note.

It's been years since I've played it so I just tried to recall it today.
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#1438014 - 05/16/10 08:17 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: custard apple
Hi Beeboss
Do you have a favourite jazz key ?
I’m curious because I know that you’re also a classical musician.
I think Chopin used Ab major a lot. Maybe he thought it sounded romantic.
And I reckon Brahms is amazing. I didn’t think that A major was a particularly interesting key until I heard his Intermezzo. He manages to make this major key sound pensive and mysterious.


Well I do like Brahms's Em cello sonata rather a lot, but no I don't have a favourite key. Maybe if I had perfect pitch it would have more relevance to me.
I think I like ambiguous tonality the best.
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#1438018 - 05/16/10 08:22 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: custard apple
I didn’t think that A major was a particularly interesting key until I heard his Intermezzo. He manages to make this major key sound pensive and mysterious.


Are you one of those people that hears different colours/tones/something inexplicable in different keys? I knew someone like that in university and she had perfect pitch. I myself wouldn't know what key a piece was in unless I had a reference (relative pitch).

I do know that if I normally play a piece in one key, and shift to another slightly higher or slightly lower then that can shape my thoughts as to whether the new key is 'lighter' or 'darker'.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1438019 - 05/16/10 08:30 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: beeboss
I got round to doing a bit of 'Very Early' in 5 today. Just experimenting with some different ideas, dividing up the 5 in different ways. Its hard not to make any complete clangers! I put some bass down to play over which helped keep me in time a bit.
http://www.divshare.com/download/11384811-a4e

Cool stuff here. I hear Giant Steps stuff in your first four bars, was that intended? I also like your feel on this take. It seems you're really looking at playing behind the beat. Was that your intent?

Some odd things I've been working on are combining unlikely tunes. For instance, since I was working on Nefertiti last, and VE recently, I put them together. It's surprising how well they fit (Nef melody with VE chords, slightly modified, with roots the same).

This idea came from the practice of referencing ie using bits of melodies of known tunes in your solos. In any case, I've found it really has helped me understand melody and chords in a different way.

I'll post a recording if I have a chance.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1438026 - 05/16/10 08:44 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2261
Loc: Sydney
Hi scep
I can't even begin to tell you how relatively untrained my ear is compared to all of yours. Maybe I will blame it on my visual classical background ! I only know what key a song is when I look at the lead sheet or the score. AFTER I analyse a song, I DO hear different moods in different phrases, e.g. for me, Autumn Leaves alternates between happy and sad.

Beeboss
What are some examples of ambiguous tonality ? e.g. A minor ?

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#1438030 - 05/16/10 08:48 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
BTW Wiz - Go ahead and post Green Dolphin St. I know the tune and I'm sure many others do. Although I already know it, I'm challenged to think of how to do it in Solo piano. I would be glad to get ideas. Maybe like a drone bass note.

It's been years since I've played it so I just tried to recall it today.


I've been playing it the last few days. My buddy asked for his recording device back so sadly I can't post anything.

Herbie Hancock does a wonderful solo version of it on an old album called The Piano. It's all solo stuff, he does Someday my prince will come as well. See if you can find it. Very sparse but totally Hancock.

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#1438034 - 05/16/10 08:55 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Wizard of Oz]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
Speaking of keys, I do find certain moods relate to different keys. The flats like Bb, Eb, Db have a mellow, warm feel, like chicken soup. C major is like plain vanilla.

G and D major (#) is like that fresh Australian chardonnay. Ab would be that rich Shiraz. And B major is like that long lost cousin who you can never remember! Can't think of the last time I played a tune in B! haha

I don't have perfect pitch either but can hear differences between flat and sharp.

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#1438048 - 05/16/10 09:42 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Wizard of Oz]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
I play in C# a lot, but find that Db is too dark for me. smile

I think differences are more evident in Baroque instruments, and particularly unfretted stringed instruments. I believe when you have no frets the way you approach different notes may affect the tuning. Keys like E, A, D, G will sound slightly different than Eb, Ab etc. Come to think of it, when playing valve instruments the same kind of thing applies, but with different considerations (I play lots of instruments). But hopefully on piano, assuming your piano tuner knows what he is doing, will equalize the temperment, making every key sound like the next. So, for those with good ears, when accompanying a stringed or valve/brass instrument, you may find that some keys do sound brighter, and some darker, or some happier etc.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1438192 - 05/17/10 04:05 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2261
Loc: Sydney
lol wiz, chicken soup !!!! I must admit I hadn't thought of Bb, Eb, Db that way.

Scep et al
I know you joke around sometimes but what is the difference between C# and Db ? C# major is a very happy and rich sounding key to my ears, but with even the mention of Db, I believe that my mind already anticipates serious even before I hear one note of the song.

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#1438206 - 05/17/10 05:36 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: custard apple

I know you joke around sometimes but what is the difference between C# and Db ? C# major is a very happy and rich sounding key to my ears, but with even the mention of Db, I believe that my mind already anticipates serious even before I hear one note of the song.


How can there be a difference when your fingers are pressing the same buttons and the instrument is vibrating the same strings?
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#1438208 - 05/17/10 05:40 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: custard apple

Beeboss
What are some examples of ambiguous tonality ? e.g. A minor ?



I suppose I meant pieces which are beyond a 'classical' sense of tonality. Like Messiaen, Shostakovich, Ligeti, and most modern jazz. Basically I like stuff with has lots of rich harmony.
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#1438212 - 05/17/10 05:51 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Originally Posted By: beeboss
I got round to doing a bit of 'Very Early' in 5 today. Just experimenting with some different ideas, dividing up the 5 in different ways. Its hard not to make any complete clangers! I put some bass down to play over which helped keep me in time a bit.
http://www.divshare.com/download/11384811-a4e

Cool stuff here. I hear Giant Steps stuff in your first four bars, was that intended? I also like your feel on this take. It seems you're really looking at playing behind the beat. Was that your intent?



I guess I can see a similarity between VE and giant steps, they have the same kind of approach to harmony. A product of the time I guess. Maybe Coltrane was influenced by Bill's approach, maybe he even played VE, who knows. Certainly they were playing together in the months before Giant Steps was recorded.
I was trying to lay back on the time because I noticed that I was rushing a bit, probably as I am not that good at playing in 5. If you try to record just 1/8s over the bassline you may well find that it is not easy to keep it 100% in time.
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/davebeeboss

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#1438259 - 05/17/10 07:52 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2261
Loc: Sydney
Beeboss, I'm glad I have confirmation from a professional that there isn't a difference. I always write my chords thinking C# major but I notice that most jazz people tend to write chords using Db. So is it primarily an issue of preference ?

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#1438266 - 05/17/10 08:05 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2938
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
I've never thought of the key of C#. It seems really odd.
C#, D#, E#, F#, G#, A#, B#, C#
I guess on a chromatic harmonica it would be easier thinking C# than Db.

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#1438272 - 05/17/10 08:17 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: custard apple
Beeboss, I'm glad I have confirmation from a professional that there isn't a difference. I always write my chords thinking C# major but I notice that most jazz people tend to write chords using Db. So is it primarily an issue of preference ?


Hi Custard, it is only my view that the changes are purely notational, others maybe feel differently, and that is only for the piano. as others have said, when you have real fretless strings involved there is a different relationship to the tempered scale. String players microtune to get a more perfect tuning than is possible on the piano.
Personally I prefer thinking of flat keys, they are more jazz!

(btw technically I am an ex-professional)
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/davebeeboss

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#1438275 - 05/17/10 08:23 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2938
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
beeboss,

I think telling Cus to start thinking in Db instead of C# might be a good piece of advice. I'm pretty sure calling A Train in C# will get you some laughs. I'm pretty sure Ella called it Db. And chords such as D#-7, E#-7 and B#-7b5 aren't that common in the real book. smile

But yeah, if you play some instruments that just makes it easier to think sharps rather than flats (like a chromatic harp), then that might become relevant to learn those odd chords.

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#1438288 - 05/17/10 08:55 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: knotty

But yeah, if you play some instruments that just makes it easier to think sharps rather than flats (like a chromatic harp), then that might become relevant to learn those odd chords.


Thats it. Trumpets and saxophones prefer flat keys, and guitars prefer sharp keys (well E A D and G at least). Thats why jazz tunes are usually in Bb F and Eb and rock tunes in E and A
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http://www.youtube.com/davebeeboss

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#1438356 - 05/17/10 11:13 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
BTW - Beeboss, I was just trying My Romance in 5/4 and the nice thing I'm finding about odd time signatures is that it changes your phrasing. I find it refreshing.

Now VE is probably too jerky in 5/4 for my taste but in general, the mixing of a 3/4 with a 4/4 or 2/4 is good for shaking one out of a routine. I'm really enjoying it.

On Giant Steps vs. VE: It's funny that you guys say that now but when I first introduced VE as a suggested tune a while back, I said it was "Giant-Steps-Like".

I found though that I'm not yet able to come up with interesting melodies on Giant Steps. You did a great job with it. It's like there's not enough beats to develop the idea. Any tips on approaching this?
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#1438399 - 05/17/10 12:17 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
BTW - Beeboss, I was just trying My Romance in 5/4 and the nice thing I'm finding about odd time signatures is that it changes your phrasing. I find it refreshing.

Now VE is probably too jerky in 5/4 for my taste but in general, the mixing of a 3/4 with a 4/4 or 2/4 is good for shaking one out of a routine. I'm really enjoying it.


Excellent. I never tried that in 5 but why not? I always find it forces me to try some different things.I usually prefer 7 though, its easier.

Originally Posted By: jazzwee


I found though that I'm not yet able to come up with interesting melodies on Giant Steps. You did a great job with it. It's like there's not enough beats to develop the idea. Any tips on approaching this?


Just play the difficult bars very slowly over and over and over. Write out a line over it and learn it. Do that 10 times. Then do it all again and again. I try to think arpeggios or pentatonics on those difficult bits.


Edited by beeboss (05/17/10 12:18 PM)
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#1438489 - 05/17/10 02:50 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
I've got an idea for Giant steps that may help some people. Bear with me, I'm not near a piano, but I remember thinking of the first bunch of bars in terms of descending whole tone scale in major and minor triads:

Bmaj, D7, Gmaj, Bb7, Ebmaj (Am, D7) Gmaj, Bb7, Ebmaj, F#7 Bmaj could have the descending triads, either in root or inversion.
Bmaj Am Gmaj, Fm, Ebmaj Gmaj, Fm, Ebmaj, Dbm, Bmaj


Line up the bottom triads with the top chords and you have some interesting whole tone scale ideas. Currently I've been looking for hidden structures in tunes and this was one that came up. I'm not saying that this is the only way to approach these bars, but it is a way: My way, and probably some other person's too, that discovered this 30 years ago. I'm just posting how I approached these bars on a particular practice session.

So, please don't jump all over me about why it doesn't make sense to you. This is just an idea, as JW was asking for some ideas. In any case, it's not a great stretch of the imagination being that only two chords per sequence are extended (using 9s to arrive at the upper structure)

Also, Giant steps is also a great candidate for 7/4 time and others. I also prefer playing this piece starting on a Cb chord. (Sorry, Custard, couldn't resist!)
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1438500 - 05/17/10 05:43 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
I've got an idea for Giant steps that may help some people. Bear with me, I'm not near a piano, but I remember thinking of the first bunch of bars in terms of descending whole tone scale in major and minor triads:

Bmaj, D7, Gmaj, Bb7, Ebmaj (Am, D7) Gmaj, Bb7, Ebmaj, F#7 Bmaj could have the descending triads, either in root or inversion.
Bmaj Am Gmaj, Fm, Ebmaj Gmaj, Fm, Ebmaj, Dbm, Bmaj


Thats a good idea. Bass players often take that approach on giant steps, playing the root notes down a whole tone scale, B A G F Eb (Am7 D7) G F Eb Db B (Fm Bb7) etc

Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy

Also, Giant steps is also a great candidate for 7/4 time and others.


As if its not hard enough already!


Edited by beeboss (05/17/10 07:15 PM)
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#1438521 - 05/17/10 06:10 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Scep, I'm not understanding this. Can you give me an example?
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Piano 88
My Blog

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#1438597 - 05/17/10 08:07 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Scep, I'm not understanding this. Can you give me an example?


An example of the triad thing? I'll post a clip to avoid controversy and wrong notation, but not sure if I can do that tonight. But in the meantime look at what I posted, treating the top line of the chords as bass notes (BDGBbEb) and the bottom line triads as going on top of the bass notes. You can arpeggiate them in bits to get interesting and lyrical melody ideas.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1438600 - 05/17/10 08:12 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2261
Loc: Sydney
Ok Knotty and Beeboss, I'm going to start thinking more in the jazz piano mindset and use flats. Thanks !

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#1438609 - 05/17/10 08:34 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Scep, I'm not understanding this. Can you give me an example?


An example of the triad thing? I'll post a clip to avoid controversy and wrong notation, but not sure if I can do that tonight. But in the meantime look at what I posted, treating the top line of the chords as bass notes (BDGBbEb) and the bottom line triads as going on top of the bass notes. You can arpeggiate them in bits to get interesting and lyrical melody ideas.


What is a TOP LINE OF A CHORD? 3rd, 5th, 7th?
What is a BOTTOM line? Is this some inversion thing?
BDGBbEb are already bass notes.

Just look at the B chord. What do I do there?
_________________________
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Piano 88
My Blog

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#1438716 - 05/18/10 12:09 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Scep, I'm not understanding this. Can you give me an example?


An example of the triad thing? I'll post a clip to avoid controversy and wrong notation, but not sure if I can do that tonight. But in the meantime look at what I posted, treating the top line of the chords as bass notes (BDGBbEb) and the bottom line triads as going on top of the bass notes. You can arpeggiate them in bits to get interesting and lyrical melody ideas.


What is a TOP LINE OF A CHORD? 3rd, 5th, 7th?
What is a BOTTOM line? Is this some inversion thing?
BDGBbEb are already bass notes.

Just look at the B chord. What do I do there?


No, no, no...I said look at the top line of the two lines of chords I posted. Use that as the bass line, then the bottom chords (of the two lines of chords I posted) will be the triads you put on top. The two lines of chords I posted should line up on your computer screen; they do on mine...
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1438720 - 05/18/10 12:11 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Wait, I see now that they don't line up after a while. Just look at the first four chords in the top row (followed by the explanation) then you'll see another row of chords, that initially line up with each other. Is that clearer?
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1438728 - 05/18/10 12:36 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Got it. That truly confused me. So where does the WT Scale fit into all this?

BTW for me, Giant Steps messes me up in only one spot:

|Bb7 EbMaj7 | F#7 BMaj7 |

If I just practice all the permutations and combinations in the jump between these two bars then I'm golden. I just never persist.
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#1438755 - 05/18/10 02:40 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Got it. That truly confused me. So where does the WT Scale fit into all this?

BAGFEb--descending whole tone scale based on the chords and some extensions.
Originally Posted By: JW

BTW for me, Giant Steps messes me up in only one spot:

|Bb7 EbMaj7 | F#7 BMaj7 |

Why this part? It's the same as the first bit, but down a maj 3rd, no? Is it playing in the key of B that's difficult? Maybe just think of it as Cb, like I said before. wink
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