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#1448028 - 06/01/10 12:14 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: KlinkKlonk]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1188
Loc: uk south
Hey KK, well done with your Giant steps. You are making the changes there and with some good lines. Very fluent as well at that fast tempo.
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#1448114 - 06/01/10 02:07 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: KlinkKlonk]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: KlinkKlonk

http://www.divshare.com/download/11557528-d23 Aaalmost there, you may find a few repeated ideas in there, lol. It's two merged tracks that both turned out pretty decent.


Klink, your technique at that tempo is amazing. You are still maintaining incredible legato. Even when I recorded at 200, I was already losing control technically.

You certainly made the changes and I liked your lines. Yeah you repeated. So what? LOL! Coltrane repeated too. smile

That tempo is beyond me so I can just admire the rest of you that can play that fast (and even more incredible -- to maintain ideas at that tempo). thumb
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#1448124 - 06/01/10 02:23 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Thanks for the comments guys.

I asked my teacher a question on playing at really fast tempos and the answer he gave was pretty much what Beeboss noted.

Originally Posted By: beeboss

I have often thought that the great players are just like the rest of us but their brains just run faster.


He did a little solo at some slower tempo, to give me a feel of what it sounds like. Then he played it at 300 or so and demonstrated that he's playing the same kind of lines. His point is that he can just think of the notes faster and that at no time was he resorting to patterns or licks or memory.

So the point of the lesson was to demonstrate to me that I have to do the same thing and practice the same way and that it would work out.

Out of curiousity, I actually tried matching the speed of the sped-up recording to see if my brain could handle it. It looks like it can since I can keep up in bursts. The flaw seems to be technique related. I could probably do 250 but with an uneven touch. It's something I can specifically work on and it's a discussion like this that reveals my weaknesses.

I'm just enjoying this interaction guys! thumb
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#1448148 - 06/01/10 03:01 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1188
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

His point is that he can just think of the notes faster and that at no time was he resorting to patterns or licks or memory.


I think I know what you mean but any combination of notes is a pattern, every chord shape and every melodic fragment. Memory operates at many levels, and there are all manner of things that need to be remembered while soloing, many of which we are not even aware of consciously. It is not possible to solo well at a high speed without having memorized many many combinations of notes. Of course the idea is for them to come out effortlessly but that is going to take a long long time to develop for anybodys. Knowing as many patterns as possible should aid melodic playing not hinder it.
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#1448157 - 06/01/10 03:20 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Beeboss, I'm just saying what he said. So I'm not trying to interpret what he says (maybe he didn't say it well).

I'll make this observation though. When he plays for me in a lesson, I get a sense of repeated melodic constructs in what he plays. I'll see recognizable snippets.

When he plays in a real gig, or in his recordings, everything is unique sounding to my ears. So it seems he can call upon memory/patterns/shapes when he doesn't want to make the effort (like in teaching). But he is able to get into a zone of creation where the music is seamlessly connected to him and it is flowing with a purpose.

I get your point though since there's no way to separate known shapes from one's memory. Even chords and intervals are all familiar and automatic. But I think the different is in mindless streaming of notes vs. a musical idea. Maybe in a literature analogy, much like reading a dictionary vs. reading poetry.

When I was playing GS, I was striving to make melodic connections and it was very hard to concentrate at 200bpm. Much easier at 150bpm. If my mind wanders off a bit, I end up going through some automatic motions. Perhaps that's what it's all about. The concentration to take the robot out of the playing mechanism.
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#1448207 - 06/01/10 05:19 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz

No way I"m tackling GS, have fun guys!


Sissy! smile smile smile


Haha! I'm learning Shorter's Ana Maria right now. If you thought Nef was tough... just beautiful harmonic changes.

Kenny Kirkland covered it on his self-titled album, it has got to be one of the best improvs I've ever heard bar none. Find it if you can, (or ask and I'll send it to you.)

Kurt Rosenwinkle did it too on his standards album, I'm not as keen for it on guitar, and Kurt doesn't do it for me, but you may also like that one.

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#1448210 - 06/01/10 05:23 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Wizard of Oz]
Wizard of Oz Offline
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Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
btw, of all people playing Giant Steps, here's STEVIE WONDER:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYoadikm1sI

Killer!

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#1448219 - 06/01/10 05:33 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Wizard of Oz]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1188
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz


Haha! I'm learning Shorter's Ana Maria right now. If you thought Nef was tough... just beautiful harmonic changes.


That is one great tune. I love that Shorter album 'Native Dancer'. I have never dared to play it though.
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#1448230 - 06/01/10 05:45 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1188
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

When he plays in a real gig, or in his recordings, everything is unique sounding to my ears. So it seems he can call upon memory/patterns/shapes when he doesn't want to make the effort (like in teaching). But he is able to get into a zone of creation where the music is seamlessly connected to him and it is flowing with a purpose.

I get your point though since there's no way to separate known shapes from one's memory. Even chords and intervals are all familiar and automatic. But I think the different is in mindless streaming of notes vs. a musical idea. Maybe in a literature analogy, much like reading a dictionary vs. reading poetry.


That makes perfect sense. The phrases need to work together to complement each other and not just be thrown out randomly, ideally at least. To do this at a fast tempo is just very difficult which is why I always try to play a few fast things to get the old brain working in that way. Better to do it on something very easy before trying it with giant steps though.
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#1448249 - 06/01/10 06:18 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: Wizard of Oz


Haha! I'm learning Shorter's Ana Maria right now. If you thought Nef was tough... just beautiful harmonic changes.


I'm just listening to it now. I don't know it and it's a beautiful tune. I would be happy to learn this someday.

To my ears though it doesn't seem difficult to grasp. I don't know why that is. Perhaps a tune that stays in a tonality long enough and you can adjust to the change.

Compared to VE and GS, these two tunes can be rather abrubt. Just as my ear starts to expect a particular harmony it shifts suddenly. Throws me off and then it's hard to resume or connect an idea.

I don't have a problem with even the most frequent key changes in most standards, as long as they linger for a bar or two.

And I just realized something about VE and GS, even when there is a ii-V or V-I, the form is off center in both, meaning the ii-V or V-I is split between two bars. Maybe that's why it's disconcerting to many, including myself.

When a tune follows a more regular form, and ii-V's occur in a single bar (or 2), maybe that's what makes it easier to follow.
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#1448270 - 06/01/10 06:52 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
KlinkKlonk Offline
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Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 352
Thanks for your kind words. At a fast tempo I really think you have to have some 1-2-3-5 patterns at your disposal for fillers.

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#1448499 - 06/02/10 12:18 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: KlinkKlonk]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Klink, I specifically don't work on those patterns though I admit it's easier on the fingers. So it's a little bit more difficult for me I suppose, but I realize it also makes my playing sound a little different. I notice I jump around a lot more so it's probably not conducive to 300bpm.

Good thing we do everything differently so it gives everyone a unique sound.
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#1449368 - 06/03/10 10:04 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Wizard of Oz Offline
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Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
The melody for Ana Maria is quite straightforward, it's the underlying harmony that's tricky. It starts in a G sonority but every bar shifts, G maj7 , G sus, G -7, then goes off in tangents and G susb9.

I wonder how Shorter had the genius mind for composing when his instrument is single note, yet he thinks of all the layers beneath. Amazing.

Here's something cool I found, Chick Corea and Gulda doing a duet, Gulda's so taken by Chick he stops playing mid-song and let's him finish solo. They're playing Danny Boy and then Chick does some improv:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obymdlwz0Ks&playnext_from=TL&videos=ZY_Bv_3MzNk

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#1449878 - 06/04/10 12:49 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Wizard of Oz]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
What I'm working on now is more of a reharm of GS. Scep I see what you're talking about now with the Whole Tone scale since I can actually use those as bass tones of alternate chords.

By time I figure this out, I think it will come out with a modern sound and more unpredictable.
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#1450248 - 06/04/10 03:32 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
What I'm working on now is more of a reharm of GS. Scep I see what you're talking about now with the Whole Tone scale since I can actually use those as bass tones of alternate chords.

By time I figure this out, I think it will come out with a modern sound and more unpredictable.



Yeah, the whole tone thing works quite well.

As for reharm, I've also looked into sus chords and b9/#11 chords as subs that tie in the Eb to G to B sections better. I wonder though if it loses the intention of the original changes? Also before I started the piece I noticed an interesting reharm would be to restructure the chords around the Gmaj7 and Ebmaj7 outlines in the melody.
I'd rather not explain more about what I'm talking about to avoid further flair ups, but if anyone thinks they know what I mean and would like to further the thoughts we can go from there. smile
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#1450365 - 06/04/10 07:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Sounds like we're doing the same kind of reharm. That's pretty close to what I'm doing in one case. Maybe we can compare voicings.

The other reharm I was working on, again focusing on the WT scale, is to just change the V degrees to a ii degree, thus making the chord movements whole steps.

So like
B Am G
instead of
B D7 G

Listen to the bass player in the original, I believe he was playing this type of bass line.

Another version I'm doing is getting rid of the ii in the ii-V so it stays longer on the V chord. That way, it allows more time to state an ALT type of sound.

Lots of possibilities and a really nice learning tool.

At this point, building speed isn't my priority. I've been typically practicing at about 180bpm. There's enough to think about smile

In fact, playing this in every key might be a project too.
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#1454183 - 06/10/10 06:59 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Everybody's so quiet? Scep, haven't your students ended school yet?

From my end, after doing this nice workout with Giant Steps, which I'm practicing at 240bpm, I decided to focus a little bit on technique. I don't have a problem with soloing eighth notes at this tempo but I want to improve articulation and evenness.

It's one thing to practice scales, but I'm not sure what the best thing to do to build technique at these fast tempos.

Perhaps you all have some ideas to suggest. In the meantime, I'll practice maybe only two connecting chords in the progression, and then see where I hear unneveness as I lay some lines over the changes. Then I work on that. Typically it's a particular hand shape or fingering. It's kind of a tedious way for me to do this and I wish I had a more organized system.

In the past, my only exercises for developing speed and accuracy have been scales and arpeggios. But in real time soloing, often it is not so predictable, especially with GS. This is a tune that gives little opportunities or time for a scale run.

I have to say though that GS has improved everything I play. It's very hard to come up with creative lines on such a monster. But when you do, it shows up in other tunes.
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#1455632 - 06/13/10 10:12 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
KlinkKlonk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 352
On GS I practiced 1-2-3-5 patterns starting from the root and 5th of each chord with 3-5-2-1 as the only permutation, (my fav, great thematic value) ex: F#, D#, C#, B, C, E, B, A (for the first bar 8 notes). Then I practiced all harmonic outlines as described by Bert Ligon (http://www.jazzguitarlessons.net/image-files/ccwlh-2.jpg) in his book Connecting chords with linear harmony. I also practiced different chromatic group (http://www.freejazzinstitute.org/showposts.php?dept=analysis&topic=20080715115804_EdByrne) based on the 3rds and 7th of all chords. Ex: From the 3rd of Bmaj7 to the 7th of the D7 to the 3rd of Gmaj7 to the 7th of the Bb7 : D# D C# B, C A A# C, B Bb A,G, Ab and so on...

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#1455675 - 06/13/10 11:40 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: KlinkKlonk]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Interesting Klink. It seems that at this tempo, I couldn't even tell that.

Now my crazy method is to improvise on it as if it were at 150bpm. Meaning I'm not doing anything different then any other tune so I'm actually trying to play melodically. I also would say that I tend to arpeggiate a lot. I'm realizing that this takes a lot of thinking and my comfort zone is not more than 220.

But this in itself isn't too bad. When I started this, I was doing it at 150.

It is possible that I will never attain 300 here (at least not for awhile) just because I can't think that fast.

Do you have any tips on improving articulation at this tempo? That's what I've been working on for a few days. I can play scales at 300 easily enough. But translated to real moves when blowing, I'm not pleased with the sound.
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#1455951 - 06/13/10 06:45 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
KlinkKlonk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 352
Break it up with quarter notes and quarter note triplets I guess is a good strategy. As to articulation I'm not sure, I don't think I manage it that well. What I've been doing lately is learning "Line up" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEBHSFuW_Bk) by Lennie Tristano, masterful articulation at high speed, hopefully some of it slipped in somewhere...

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#1456136 - 06/14/10 12:45 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: KlinkKlonk]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Thanks Klink. Line Up is amazing. I have that CD. Such control of accents! You're using a good example for sure. Maybe I'll practice snippets of it.

Someone here once said that to improve articulation, practice with staccatto playing. Anybody have an opinion on that?

A fast tune that I was practicing for a couple of months was Matrix. I think I'll go back to some of that, although Chick's articulation is much more detached.
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#1456140 - 06/14/10 12:49 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
BTW - Anybody have any interesting reharms of Here's that Rainy Day? If so, post some changes.
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#1460138 - 06/21/10 02:21 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
I was on vacation but I resumed with practicing the GS 1235 patterns like Klink outlined. It was good for just focusing on improving articulation too since it's a pattern. Frankly, I didn't mind doing it because when I actually played GS, I didn't rely on the pattern anyway.

I'm looking to start some new tune but in the absence of anything else challenging, I started playing around with Spain. This tune isn't difficult from a changes point of view but I realized it's another one of these challenging tempos where it's typically played with a chockfull of sixteenths. I've been interested in it from a solo piano point of view, maybe after watching youtubes of kids like Gadi play it solo.
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#1462133 - 06/24/10 01:46 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
hey guys...been busy with stuff and life, but thought I'd pop in. How's the playing going? Just landed a few more gigs so happy with that. Have to throw in some pop/rock tunes in my repertoire, haha.

Hey here's a new topic:

Altered Dominant chords


Where and how to use them? I was going through a transcription of Keith Jarrett's intro to My funny valentine, and he throws in tons of those alt chords, seemingly at random. They aren't tritone subs, but just replaces the usual chord.

So, the tune's in C-, there's a sequence which goes D7 alt, G7 alt, Cm-7, Ab7 alt, G sus....

So he's replacing the D -, Ab with alts. Of course the G is the normal 5th chord. But it seems you can throw in other ones and it will sound ok.

What's neat too is the specific alteration. Sometimes it's just a #9 or #11, or he likes the b9/b5 together. A great dissonant chord.

And he uses it in inner voicings alot, playing the melody note and then playing the chord a split second after.

Well that's what I'm working on. Jazz festival is coming up so time to see all the shows!

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#1462138 - 06/24/10 02:18 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Wizard of Oz]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2293
Loc: Sydney
Hi wiz
Interesting, I actually don't mind the sound of the b9 with a b5 chord depending on the voicing - you're right about some voicings sounding very dissonant.
I really like Keith's "My Funny Valentine" and also "Never Let Me Go" the other ballad on the Tokyo album, they initially got me into jazz a little more than a year ago.

Re gigs, I'm assuming you're from Oz, where in Sydney can I listen to live jazz which has a strong swing, like the old masters Lennie Tristano ?

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#1462338 - 06/24/10 12:36 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Hey Wiz, although I've learned to substitute Alt chords with Dominants a long time ago, it hasn't been automatic to my playing until I worked on Chick Corea's Matrix. Since a blues is all dominants, he uses it A LOT. Practically as a substitute to every other dominant chord. You don't hear a lot of Alts in old bebop so much where everything tends to be diatonic except for a little chromatic on the bebop scale.

With modern Jazz players, the use of Alt substitutions is much more frequent I find. And until I actually heard and transcribed other guys like Kenny Werner using Alt, I thought this was just theory. And of course my teacher plays Alts heavily too.

Using Alt dominants is tied to diminished cycle voicings which is another topic.

But in general, when you see a Dominant and substitute an Alt voicing, you play the Half-Whole Diminished scale (or play a diminished scale half a step up -- starting at the b9).

A simplification of an alt voicing: When I want to play an Alt voicing, often all you need as extensions are the #5 and #9 or #5 and b9. Often just two are needed. A cluster voicing including b9,#9,b5/#11,#5 is a bit much and can be explored in the solo line itself.

Phrased a little differently, you know that an Alt is just a Tritone substitute right? So C7 can be substituted with an F#7. But in practice, a full F#7 rootless voicing isn't required here. Even a single Alt extension note can be pretty strong, I find, if it's the lower note of the voicing (like b9 is very typical).
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#1474357 - 07/14/10 06:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1188
Loc: uk south
Well this thread seems to finally have died a death
So as a farewell I shall leave with something I recorded today
Some free improvisation ballad style

http://www.divshare.com/download/12002511-73f
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#1474375 - 07/14/10 06:26 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3335
Loc: Scotland
Beeboss that was amazing! smile
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#1474405 - 07/14/10 07:28 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: ten left thumbs]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
Beautiful beeboss, a fitting epitath...

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#1474456 - 07/14/10 09:05 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Wizard of Oz]
CMohr Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 07/24/09
Posts: 1029
Loc: Oregon
Beeboss, excellent! Hopefully, this thread is NOT dead - even though I am a virtual newbie at this jazz thing, I've learned SO much from all of you. So, I'll just think of your improv as a transition piece instead of an epitaph.
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