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#1474465 - 07/14/10 09:29 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: CMohr]
daviel Offline
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Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
very nice!
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#1474549 - 07/15/10 12:27 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: CMohr]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
NICE BB!

This thread has been quiet but IT WILL NOT DIE. Just a little break to get some new people in. Personally, I find this thread unusual because it's the only one where we can actually "practice".

Sometimes a little break gives everyone some new energy. And forget the occasional fights in here.

Maybe Giant Steps just scared everyone there for a bit smile
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#1474552 - 07/15/10 12:32 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: CMohr]
custard apple Offline
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Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2265
Loc: Sydney
Bee, that was so chilled. Your new Yamaha sounds cool. Do you remember what key it was in and what were your main scales ?
I liked the melody interwoven through it. I’ve heard pros just filling up space with scale-like notes, rather than thinking of a clear melody in their heads.

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#1474643 - 07/15/10 05:01 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Thanks everyone.
I hope the thread doesn't die as it is always nice to talk jazz. But if there is no activity then after a while I forget to come back.

Custard, re my tune, I just improvised a chord sequence, some 2 5 1's in different keys mainly. I don't really think in scales that much when I play but they sometimes come out by themselves. Probably major, melodic minor and diminished mainly.
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#1474648 - 07/15/10 05:27 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
Inlanding Offline
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Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1635
Loc: Colorado
BB ~ a most excellent free-play, ballade. Flowed very nicely. Thanks for sharing.

Glen
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#1474651 - 07/15/10 05:55 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Inlanding]
custard apple Offline
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Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2265
Loc: Sydney
lolol Bee, you make it sound so easy !! So what DO you think in when you improvise ? Do you think in tones ?

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#1474679 - 07/15/10 07:27 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
I have no idea what I think, I just sit and let the ideas come to me, sometimes its a melodic idea or a chord voicing or maybe a rhythmic idea or scale pattern or maybe a texture or a feeling. Sorry to be vague but that is how it is.
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#1474681 - 07/15/10 07:32 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
custard apple Offline
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Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2265
Loc: Sydney
Thanks bee. So the ideas just come naturally to you. I am aiming for the day that will happen to me.

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#1474689 - 07/15/10 07:54 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
KlinkKlonk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 351
Nice Bee, I hope this thread will survive aswell. Been practicing medium down swing and ballads lately on "I thought about you". I've realized it's harder to play slow then fast. Does anyone have a suggestion of a good solo to transcribe that's beetwen 100-115 bpm that builds momentum and mixes up triplets and 8th, 16ths nicely?

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#1474706 - 07/15/10 08:49 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: KlinkKlonk]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: KlinkKlonk
I've realized it's harder to play slow then fast.


Hi KK,
I am not so sure, rather playing slow has different problems. It's hard to play anything perfectly slow or fast.
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#1474880 - 07/15/10 01:55 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Hey Klink, I know exactly what you're talking about. It's pretty hard to jump from quarter notes to 16ths for example. I'd have to step to it gradually.

I'm trying to think of what ballad I used to build it up. Maybe My Funny Valentine by Keith Jarrett.

Extremes of slow and fast are pretty hard. I'd be interested to know too how to improve upon this skill.

The only way I know is sit with a metronome and play with tapping notes from whole - half - quarter - triplet quarter - eights - triplet eights - 16ths in sequence, then going back down again.
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#1474907 - 07/15/10 02:36 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: jazzwee


Extremes of slow and fast are pretty hard. I'd be interested to know too how to improve upon this skill.

The only way I know is sit with a metronome and play with tapping notes from whole - half - quarter - triplet quarter - eights - triplet eights - 16ths in sequence, then going back down again.


The only way to play better at fast tempos is to get a better technique and to really do it a lot. Every day improvise on something really easy (just one chord is enough) at your fastest comfortable speed for as long as you can manage, trying really hard not to lose the groove. Each day push the tempo just a little. I find this easier with a backing track than a metronome, but progress is very slow.
For slow tempos technique is not so important but precision of timing is even more vital. There are lots of great rhythm exercises to do, slow tempo work, hand co-ordination exercises etc. A few minutes a day with the metronome on very slow can really benefit.
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#1474912 - 07/15/10 02:43 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: beeboss
It's hard to play anything perfectly slow or fast.


That's been my experience too.
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#1474924 - 07/15/10 03:08 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: beeboss
... but progress is very slow...


Isn't that the truth!

You know Beeboss, I've been at this only 6 years and after all the practice, I really thought some of this technique stuff and groove ability would come in faster.

But improvement really comes in little drips.

I've been specifically working on speed with Giant Steps (still) but I've stopped trying to push so hard. At 210bpm I'm still in control of what I'm playing and have time to think of melodies. Above that, my fingers are leading me.

So the brain has to catch up, is what I'm thinking.
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#1475082 - 07/15/10 07:14 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

I've been specifically working on speed with Giant Steps (still) but I've stopped trying to push so hard. At 210bpm I'm still in control of what I'm playing and have time to think of melodies. Above that, my fingers are leading me.
So the brain has to catch up, is what I'm thinking.


I don't think giant steps is the right thing for practicing speed, you want something that is really easy harmonically, even just one chord or a turnaround, otherwise there is too much to think about. Don't worry about being led by your fingers, just think about playing in the pocket. Even the notes don't matter, anything will do as long as it is in time, you can always work at refining the quality of the lines after you can make the tempo. That is what I do anyway.
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#1475094 - 07/15/10 07:34 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
beeboss, I think we're talking about two separate issue. Yes for practicing straight speed, GS is the wrong tune since the notes don't matter. This is just pure technique practice.

I was just making a comment on a second issue, and that is achieving the technique is one thing, but actually having the awareness to solo on it (as it is obvious that you're able to) is an entirely different level.

I can play scales faster than 300bpm. But to keep the stream of ideas going is a different challenge. At some point, it's muscle memory. I'm trying to stretch that so it's less muscle memory. I'm not sure it's even essential to reach 300bpm for this. But to be aware of the specific notes one plays at 240bpm would be quite an achievement for me.

GS gives that mind stretch because you're exactly right, there's too much to think about. It seems to impact everything else I play though. It's like the more I practice GS, the less brain power is exerted in soloing simpler tunes. And possibly more time to think melodically.

BTW - scales are so different from real soloing. I see now why so many players stick so many fast runs in their playing. It's all muscle memory.
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#1475118 - 07/15/10 08:13 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
beeboss, I think we're talking about two separate issue. Yes for practicing straight speed, GS is the wrong tune since the notes don't matter. This is just pure technique practice.

BTW - scales are so different from real soloing. I see now why so many players stick so many fast runs in their playing. It's all muscle memory.



Jazzwee, I was talking about how to learn how to improvise at speed, not about playing scales. If you are improvising on a one chord vamp at the fastest speed you can then this involves a very different skill than just running a scale. Yes you need the technique to waggle your fingers at that speed (which you can develop by doing scales) but also you need the ability to actually do the improvising, to actually create and execute musical ideas in realtime. And this you can only develop by actually doing it, and to do it you need to start simple on simple chords using simple ideas in your lines. In this way you can actually practice developing a stream of ideas at speed without also having to worry about a tricky sequence at the same time.
I think you are right that a lot of it is in the muscle memory. Once you have practiced dozens of ideas at your new fast tempo then it becomes easier to actually do something creative with them.
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#1475142 - 07/15/10 08:53 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
I suppose it is partly implementing ideas in "sets". Like after awhile, your hand takes a shape for a certain chord and your hand shape will often dictate what you will play.

So if my hand is positioned near the root vs. near the 3rd of the chord, I'd like likely play something different.

Hand shape seems to account for a lot. It's discussed in the Metaphors for Musicians book and Halberstadht encourages an open hand shape at all times. But here I'm talking too about where you hover your hand.

I'm just finding this to be very true in GS. For example, on the first chord BMaj7, if I position my hand on the 1235 of the chord, I'll likely play something different even with the following chords compared to when I start a shape at 3579.

Do you do that? Does your hand gravitate to a certain location(s) for particular chords?

Do you have a bias towards positioning near the root of the chord? I think beginners probably do. I probably did before and it lessened the possible ideas.
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#1475327 - 07/16/10 05:23 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

Do you do that? Does your hand gravitate to a certain location(s) for particular chords?

Do you have a bias towards positioning near the root of the chord? I think beginners probably do. I probably did before and it lessened the possible ideas.



For sure my left hand often does the standard voicings with very little encouragement and on something like giant steps it involves some effort to play different voicings. My right hand though does not have any particular orientation to these chord shapes generally although it can be a useful way of generating single note lines so I do try it sometimes.
I don't think I have any bias to hand positioning near the root of the chord, but I do think that everyone has elements in their playing that they are stuck with because they have played that idea so many times, a voicing or starting a run on a certain note or place in the bar, or always using a certain lick on a particular chord. It's good to get away from those ideas and being aware of what they are is the first step.
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#1475478 - 07/16/10 11:21 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
This awareness of my hand position just came recently. Since ideas have to come pretty quickly for Giant Steps, for awhile there I started to feel like it always sounded the same.

So I started to practice with the idea of always varying some elements. Some of the ones I came up with were:

1. Shifting Octaves more frequently
2. Positioning my hands to start at different parts of the scale (like 5th and 7th area). It doesn't mean I play those notes but the hand position seems to create a bias.
3. Practicing with a certain interval size like incorporating more 4ths and 5ths. This was hard for me in GS because it's happening so fast.
4. Playing ALT patterns on dominants over larger intervals.
5. Playing Lydian patterns on majors over larger intervals.
6. Playing chromatically
7. Inserting more quarter notes and half notes, and space to break the pattern

When I hear a fresh sound come out, it often feeds into a different idea and then the rest of the note choices change too. My point in this exercise was to break up repetitiveness which can be easily apparent in GS.

But it's a lot to think about all at once in real time. At 180bpm or so, I'm able to be completely aware. Over 200bpm the fingers make the choices.

I don't like that. I'd like to be aware at a faster level. It was my teacher who demonstrated to me that he can still think of individual note choices at over 250bpm. (Although he probably would have to resort to muscle memory at 300bpm -- my opinion).

I'll see if I can record a practice session this weekend so I can get some critique.
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#1475727 - 07/16/10 06:18 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1310
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Fun to see that this topic is alive and well. I'll be joining in shortly, just have get myself - and time - sorted out. A new baby will do that to you.
On the topic of speed; here's a clip with Bill Evans that has inspired me this last month - not just this clip, but them all from this recording, Bill's playing is impeccable and the rest of trio: Chuck Israels and Larry Bunker - just wow!

And don't miss those fast 16th notes here
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#1475733 - 07/16/10 06:35 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Congratulations Chris! Many sleepless nights to you! smile
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#1475736 - 07/16/10 06:51 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: ten left thumbs]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Chris, good to see you back! Yeah I hope you keep posting the things that interest you and are working on so we all get practice ideas.

We time the life of these jazz threads to your children you know smile One thread for each kid. smile Just for that reason alone we've got to keep going.
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#1476360 - 07/18/10 01:20 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Wizard of Oz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 873
Speaking of Giant Steps, nice version from that kid who played Corea's Spain exceptionally well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps_wAFu087c

I should ask him how he picked up jazz so fast.

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#1476449 - 07/18/10 09:15 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Wizard of Oz]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2265
Loc: Sydney
Yeah, it made me wonder how did Gadi master his command of rhythm at such a young age, especially sustaining the swing and syncopation for a long solo ?
Btw I thought he was Zac Hanson.

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#1476465 - 07/18/10 10:03 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
KlinkKlonk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 351
That kid is fcking amazing. This clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvA4ztA7nzs&feature=related
It's one thing to have the facility and speed at a young age but his ears and time are just perverse.

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#1476528 - 07/18/10 12:28 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: KlinkKlonk]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Giant Steps - look at this video of Barry Harris masterclass. It was neat watching him build bebop melodies for GS. It's played at medium swing so it's pretty easy to understand. He says he's playing it like I Got Rhythm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-AaXO-pnp0
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#1476530 - 07/18/10 12:32 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: KlinkKlonk]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: KlinkKlonk
That kid is fcking amazing. This clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvA4ztA7nzs&feature=related
It's one thing to have the facility and speed at a young age but his ears and time are just perverse.


I think it is the rhythmic feel that is amazing. We normal people take a long time to absorb that. I can't tell if they're good overall at everything or it's just a few tunes (most likely since he keeps playing Spain), but there is no doubt that learning to develop that kind of sense of time in a short time is utterly amazing.
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#1478219 - 07/20/10 11:57 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
FYI - my computer is down so I can't upload any music (as I was planning). So if this thread sinks down for a bit, not to worry. It might take over a week to get back up as my computer has to be sent back for repair.
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#1478280 - 07/21/10 02:54 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2265
Loc: Sydney
lol my wrist is down from tennis so I might shut up for once

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