Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 27 of 46 < 1 2 ... 25 26 27 28 29 ... 45 46 >
Topic Options
#1430978 - 05/06/10 07:43 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
How about importing both left and right mono tracks into Audacity, zooming in closely, then aligning the two until they are perfectly synced?


The trouble is that it is hard to define "perfectly synced". If you could then this method woud work

For example a "D" is played but the two microphones are not the same distance from that D string so the sound in one mic is delayed relative to the other mic. And yes at 44,100 samples per second a 1/2 inch difference is about 2 samples And you want to preserve the different delays because that is what stereo is all about.

Also, I don't know how good the clock is inside the recording device. Some of them are poor and drift so much that you'd never get sample accurate time alignment because you'd find that one channel is 100 samples longer than the other.

For the purposes of DPBSD I think a mono recording is good enough. Plug into the left line out and just record that.

Top
(ads) Sweetwater / Roland
The Right Mic Makes all the Difference. Piano Mics at Sweetwater

Click Here


#1431019 - 05/06/10 08:40 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4343
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
How about importing both left and right mono tracks into Audacity, zooming in closely, then aligning the two until they are perfectly synced?

You would have to do that separately for every audio event, and it wouldn't work for multiple events sounding together.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1431023 - 05/06/10 08:44 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: ChrisA]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4343
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: ChrisA
For the purposes of DPBSD I think a mono recording is good enough. Plug into the left line out and just record that.

No, relative phase between the left and right channels really helps to see what's going on. Without that I'm flying blind.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1431096 - 05/06/10 10:22 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
ukwomble Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/27/10
Posts: 23
Loc: WA, USA
Yeah, i think it makes sense to wait until I get an extension cable and just plug it into my desktop...
_________________________
Yamaha CLP-S308
Learning after >20 years break smile

Top
#1435259 - 05/12/10 04:09 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4343
Loc: Northern NJ
Review: Alicia's Keys

Today we'll review the DPBSD MP3 of Alicia's Keys from Native Instruments - all thanks to our indefatigable pesk for going to the trouble of creating it and sharing it with us!

This is a 12 layer, unlooped and unstretched sample set that uses Kontakt 4 for playback. It's been my experience that Kontakt doesn't have the best native support for pianos regarding resonance and pedal / key interaction (I also remember fighting quite a bit with the polyphony and note stealing algorithm several years ago). But they seem to have extended it with Alicia's Keys, and they've almost got it - all they need to do is fix a couple of remaining issues.

The key down sympathetic resonance works really well, probably the best I've heard - all notes being held down indeed resonate with other notes being played. The pedal down sympathetic resonance works well too, and sounds rich and realistic.

It passes the pedal down silent replay test but it fails the brief pedal partial damping (re-pedalling) test. And while it supports partial pedalling, the effect is rather subtle and not too realistic sounding.

The velocity layers are unblended, but timbre changes from layer to layer are pretty good as these things go. Except for the last velocity switch, that is, which is quite harsh and almost sounds like a different piano altogether. Here is the layer test highly compressed to remove amplitude variation if you want to give it a listen, the harsh switch is seven notes in from the end (trust me, you won't miss it):

http://www.mediafire.com/?ijtydnhwnym

There is also quite a bit of timbre variation from one adjacent note to the next, some sound muted, others bright - which kind of reminds me of the EastWest Quantum Leap pianos I recently reviewed. Don't they adjust, regulate, and tweak these pianos before they sample them?

All in all though, a decent sample set running on a decent player.


Review below, MP3 and more analysis pics at the share point.



Spectral phase view of the entire loop test (highly compressed) - no looping here.


Spectral pan view of the stretch test (mid notes) - no stretching here (highs and lows are similar).


Spectral frequency view of the layer test - many layer switches are visible.


Spectral phase view of the layer test - note very abrupt layer switch 7 notes in from the right.


----------------------------------------------
- Native Instruments Alicia's Keys preset 01 -
----------------------------------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dpbsd_v1.7_ni_alicias_keys.mp3
- Played in Kontakt 4.0.5, converted to MP3 in Wavelab 6 w/ LAME encoder.
- All settings default except reverb off (dry).
- Recorded by "pesk".
PROS:
- Passes the pedal down sympathetic resonance test, the effect is very nice.
- Passes the key down sympathetic resonance test, all silently played notes respond.
- Pedal up/down sounds like loom-of-strings & key up makes "clunk" sound.
- Passes the pedal down silent replay test.
- Passes the partial pedalling test.
- No looping.
- No stretching.
- Decay sounds natural and is realistically long (~Pianoteq).
- 12 velocity layers (pedal up).
- Velocity switch @ vel=30,38,46,54,62,70,78,86,94,102,116.
CONS:
- Fails the brief pedal partial damping test.
- Partial pedaling effect is subtle.
- Variation in sound (muffled/bright) between adjacent notes is fairly pronounced.
- Velocity layers unblended, switches are visible & audible. The switch @ vel=116 is very abrupt.
OTHER:
- Dynamic range 32dB (vel=1:127).
- MP3 levels: peak @ -0.84dB, noise floor @ -90dB.
- Date reviewed: 2010-05-12.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1435276 - 05/12/10 04:44 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
bkmz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 142
Loc: Belarus
Very beautiful and realistic sound

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w04qwgcqB8g
_________________________
ex-Yamaha CLP 330

Top
#1435321 - 05/12/10 06:07 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: bkmz]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9147
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Thanks for the review dewster (and pesk)!

As others have noted, Alicia's Key looks to be an excellent package at a great price.

In your opinion, where would you rank this particularly software piano in relation to the other packages?

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1435332 - 05/12/10 06:40 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4343
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
In your opinion, where would you rank this particularly software piano in relation to the other packages?

I went back through the review file and am slightly surprised to say that this ranks up there with the best in terms of features, etc. Pianoteq of course is the only PC piano that gets it right (everything works, nothing is broken) but not everyone likes how it sounds.

It's a shame about that max velocity layer though (at least for middle C, pedal up, which is the only note tested by the DPBSD for layers). If I were using it to render MIDI I'd have to edit or adjust the velocity curve to stay away from it, otherwise I'd be living in fear of it popping up and making a mess of things.

Given that, I wonder if there are other severe issues lurking in the sample set. And I'm not the world's expert on pianos by any means, but Alicia's piano seems to need some work in terms of excessive timbre variation between notes. But perhaps that's part of the charm? I realize that too little variability can be a problem as well.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1435384 - 05/12/10 08:02 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9147
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Perhaps the reason for the timbre variation in the maximum velocity layer is because those notes were recorded by the engineers.

I bet if Alicia had played them they would have sounded absolutely fine.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1435397 - 05/12/10 08:31 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James]
mucci Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 1070
Loc: Munich, Germany
@James: ha

But now it really looks like I´m going to get this as my next software piano after Truepianos. I hope the latency issue that was discussed somewhere else is now resolved. This of course cannot be detected by this test, but is extremely important for playability.


Edited by mucci (05/12/10 08:33 PM)
_________________________
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>

Top
#1435861 - 05/13/10 03:20 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: mucci]
Yuri Pavlov Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 211
Loc: Moscow, Russia
To dewster,
you ask for DP BSD file for korg sp250 - I upload mp3 to
http://yuri-pavl.com/dp_bsd_v1.7_korg_sp_250.mp3
Record produce with E-mu 0404 usb
Sorry, but mono record (not find special cables)


Edited by Yuri Pavlov (05/13/10 03:42 PM)
_________________________
DP: Korg Sp-250,Pianoteq 3.x, TruePianos 1.9x;
Grand piano: Blutner, Muhlbach, Yamaha;
Upright: Kalujanka;
English (with some problems)

Top
#1436042 - 05/13/10 07:29 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Yuri Pavlov]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4343
Loc: Northern NJ
Thanks Yuri!

I sent you a PM...
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1436729 - 05/14/10 08:42 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4343
Loc: Northern NJ
Alicia's Keys Part 2: The Layering

I was interested in investigating the velocity layer switching issue in Alicia's Keys, so I created a new MIDI test file to sample all of the C notes (C1 thru C8) from velocity 1 to 127, step size 3 (1, 4, 7, ..., 121, 124, 127) and played more rapidly than the layer test in the DPBSD MIDI file (mainly to minimize listener ennui). There are two sequences, the first with the damper pedal down and the second with the pedal up. Some hang time exists at the end of the first sequence in order to allow the pedal down sympathetic resonance to ring on for a bit.

Once again pesk rose to the occasion and promptly rendered it to MP3 via NI Alicia's Keys - muchas gracias pesk!

This is what I hear when I listen to it:

- Pedal up: C4, C5, and C6 have fairly big changes in timbre at the upper end of their velocity range.
- Pedal down: C2, C5 and C6 have a big fairly big change in timbre at the upper end of their velocity range.
- Pedal up or down: C8 doesn't even sound like a note, more of a knock, before the velocity gets to around the half way mark.

The C8 issue is perhaps poor regulation, or more likely issues with the sample mix levels, so the key and hammer noises swamp the sound of the strings.

The pedal down sympathetic resonance is particularly pronounced, perhaps to the point of sounding unnatural, yet at the same time it is quite pleasant and realistic sounding. I for one will not look gift sympathetic resonance in the mouth.


The MIDI file is here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?5brlzawgjd4

The MP3 file is here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?moukrnmzzzy
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1437284 - 05/15/10 02:14 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4343
Loc: Northern NJ
Korg SP-250 Review

Thanks to Yuri Pavlov, we have a DPBSD MP3 of the Korg SP-250 - thanks Yuri! I've been begging for this file for a while so it's nice to finally be able to review it.

My memory is pretty hazy of how this DP sounded a couple of years ago when my wife and I demoed it at a Guitar Center (or was it a Sam Ash?). We ended up recommending it as a Christmas present for one of her piano students, and that student is still practicing on it to this day. I remember really liking the integrated stand and the way the pedal was locked to it, and we both thought the piano voice was acceptable for the price range.

This is a looped sample set, and while the low loops sound pretty good, the mids could benefit from longer loop samples. The decay from the initial attack for the low and mid notes is rather steep, with the volume leveling out after that, and overall decay times are rather fast.

There is a fair amount of stretching going on, with stretch groups of four over most of the range, which is audible over the low and mid notes. The top stretch group of 7 isn't audible to me. 21 stretch groups cover the 88 note range. What's interesting, given the age of the instrument, is that the velocity layers appear to be smoothly blended, much like the latest fare, so there is no obvious velocity layer switching going on over the lower velocity range. A couple of caveats to this: there is a velocity switch @ vel=98 that is audible, and I couldn't hear any real timbre change with increasing velocity after that.

It passes the pedal down sympathetic resonance test, but that's more me looking at spectral views than hearing it. It also passes the brief pedal partial damping test and the partial pedaling test. Not too surprisingly, it fails the key down sympathetic resonance test and the pedal down silent replay test.


Review below, MP3 and more analysis pics at the share point.



Waveform view of the looping test with vertical zoom applied. Decay times are rather short.


Spectral pan view of the entire looping test, compressed. Looping is quite clearly seen here on C1, C2 & C3.


Spectral pan view of the stretch test, low notes. 21 samples cover 88 notes.


Spectral frequency view of layer test. Timber variation is smooth with one velocity switch evident.



---------------
- Korg SP-250 -
---------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dpbsd_v1.7_korg_sp-250.mp3
- Sequenced and recorded with Reaper & E-mu 0404, converted to MP3 with Sound Forge 8.
- Recorded by "Yuri Pavlov".
PROS:
- Passes the pedal down sympathetic resonance test, but the effect is very subtle.
- Passes the brief pedal partial damping test.
- Passes the partial pedaling test, the effect is subtle.
- I believe this is a smoothly blended multi-velocity sample set.
CONS:
- Fails the key down sympathetic resonance test.
- Fails the pedal down silent replay test @ pedal up.
- Decay from initial attack is rather fast, with the volume leveling out after that.
- Decay times are rather fast (~3/4 to 1/3 Pianoteq, low to high).
- Obviously looped, lower loop lengths are adequately wobbly, mid loops rather short.
- Attack sample lengths are (C1:C8): 2.8,3.1,3.0,3.1,2.8,?,?,? seconds.
- Loop sample lengths are (C1:C8): 2.2,2.3,1.8,?,1.2,?,?,? seconds.
- Obviously stretched, low and mid group transitions fairly audible.
- Stretch distances: 4,4,5,4,3,5,4,5,4(x11),3,7 = 21 groups.
- Velocity switch @ vel=98 is quite visible & audible, no real timbre change after that.
- No pedal up/down or key up sounds.
OTHER:
- Dynamic range 57dB (vel=1:127).
- MP3 levels: peak @ -2.2dB, noise floor @ -76dB.
- Date reviewed: 2010-05-14.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1437674 - 05/16/10 08:15 AM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4343
Loc: Northern NJ
In case anyone is interested, pesk also ran the extended layer test over Ivory Italian Grand:

http://www.mediafire.com/?d52tmmnkwxn

What I hear:

- Pedal down: C1 & C2 I can clearly hear the first velocity switch, and C1, C2, C3, & C4 all have a fair amount of variability.
- Pedal up: C1 & C2 I can clearly hear the first velocity switch, and both have a fair amount of variability.

Thanks pesk!
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1447413 - 05/31/10 03:32 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4343
Loc: Northern NJ
Link Index Added to DPBSD First Post

Hey everyone!

In order to make this thread more user-friendly, I added an index of clickable links to the first post:

DPBSD First Post

Cheers!
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1447432 - 05/31/10 04:09 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Nice!
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
Yamaha NU1 + Production Grand

Top
#1447450 - 05/31/10 04:21 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Melodialworks Music]
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
Excellent!

Top
#1447516 - 05/31/10 05:47 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: theJourney]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9147
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Yes, nice job.

I still recommend you set up a dedicated website for this info though.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1447532 - 05/31/10 06:01 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4343
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
I still recommend you set up a dedicated website for this info though.

I'd love to but, like Snoopy, I adhere to a very rigid goofing-off schedule smile.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1450819 - 06/05/10 01:38 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4343
Loc: Northern NJ
Review: Sound Magic Imperial Grand 3D

Today we'll review the DPBSD MP3 of the Imperial Grand 3D from Sound Magic - thanks yet again to Johnny-on-the-spot pesk for providing prompt and professional grade rendering!

Well, where to begin. This is some kind of sampler / synthesis hybrid, with fairly long samples used in the attack and initial decay, which then switches to a synthesized final decay of some sort. Since the advent of Roland's SuperNATURAL technology I've been pretty much sold on the hybrid approach. And I don't want to be seen as dumping unnecessarily on this new take on hybrids, lord knows we can use all the players in this field we can get, but this entry really needs some work. Except for pedal down sympathetic resonance, it basically fails every DPBSD test, and other strange quirks were exposed during the testing as well.

In the first two phases of the pedal down sympathetic resonance test I heard some pure tones pop in about 12 seconds into the decay. And at the end of the C1 looping test the note plays again, I believe at the key up point, which is strange. There was no evidence of key down sympathetic resonance, and it failed the pedal down silent replay test, the brief pedal partial damping test, and the the partial pedaling test. During the partial pedaling test I noticed the notes played with pedal positions 111 and 95 were noticeably brighter & louder than notes played with pedal positions of 127, 63, 31, and 0, which is odd.

The attack sample lengths are quite long, which is nice, but the periods of the synthesized decay sections are short, and as a result are static and fake sounding. This instrument is visibly and audibly stretched, with all stretch groups of 3 except for the top two notes and the bottom two notes which are groups of 2. The variation in timbre (muffled/bright) between adjacent stretch groups is very pronounced, and I also noticed the stereo pan between adjacent stretch groups isn't monotonic, that is, the left/right location in the stereo field doesn't go evenly from left to right as you go up the keyboard, but bobbles around a fair amount.

There is an abrupt velocity switch @ vel=66 that is very visible & audible. I couldn't hear any timbre change (and almost no volume change) below velocity 66, though there was smooth timbre variation with velocity above that. The dynamic range is the smallest I've seen, and as a result notes played at velocity 1 were way too loud.

All in all I'd recommend a pass on this unless / until they fix the major issues with it. IMO even the free demo download most likely isn't worth your time.


Review below, MP3 and more analysis pics at the share point.



Waveform view of the entire loop test with some vertical zoom - note the unnaturally linear decay tails, and the replay of C1 at key-up.


Spectral pan view of the note C3 (highly compressed) - note the huge difference between the sample attack & decay, and the static model decay process. It sounds about as bad as it looks.


Spectral pan view of the note C7 (highly compressed) - one of the weirdest note decays I've ever seen.


Spectral phase view of the stretch test (low notes) - stretch groups of 3 all the way.


Waveform view of the entire layer test - dynamic range is only 14dB between velocity 1 and 127!


Spectral phase view of the layer test - note very the abrupt layer switch.


Spectral frequency view of the layer test - no timbre change until you hit the layer switch.


--------------------
- Imperial Grand3D -
--------------------
- dpbsd_v1.7_sm_imperial_grand_3d.mp3
- Free downloadable demo, first preset, default settings.
- Recorded by "pesk".
PROS:
- Passes the pedal down sympathetic resonance test, the effect is quite audible.
- Pedal down sound is a "thump".
CONS:
- Strange constant tones in some decay tails (e.g. ~12 seconds into pedal down sympathetic resonance test).
- Fails the key down sympathetic resonance test.
- Velocity=1 notes are quite loud!
- Fails the pedal down silent replay test @ C2 velocity=1 - the note plays quite loudly.
- Fails the brief pedal partial damping test.
- Fails the partial pedaling test.
- Notes played with pedal=111,95 are noticeably brighter & louder than pedal=127,63,31,0!
- Visibly and audibly looped (or whatever).
- Attack sample lengths are (C1:C8): 9.4,9.7,7.1,5.6,4.0,2.5,1.2,? seconds.
- Loop lengths are (C1:C8): 0.5,0.2,?,?,?,?,?,? seconds.
- Loops (or whatever they are) are very static sounding.
- Decay time for higher notes is rather short.
- C1 plays again at the end of the looping test (@ key up?)!
- Visibly and audibly quite stretched.
- Stretch distances: 2,3(x28),2 = 30 groups.
- Variation in timbre (muffled/bright) between adjacent stretch groups is very pronounced.
- Stereo pan between adjacent stretch groups is non-monotonic.
- Velocity switch @ vel=66 is very visible & audible.
- No timbre change (and almost no volume change) below vel=66, smooth timbre variation above that.
OTHER:
- Dynamic range unnaturally small 14.5dB (vel=1:127).
- MP3 levels: peak @ -2.36dB, noise floor @ -90dB.
- Date reviewed: 2010-06-04.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1450984 - 06/05/10 07:07 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
kiedysktos. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 425
Loc: Europe, Poland
I wonder does it make sense to investigate the way samples are panned in every DP from here?
_________________________
Roland FP-4

Top
#1451074 - 06/05/10 10:13 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: kiedysktos.]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4343
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: kiedysktos.
I wonder does it make sense to investigate the way samples are panned in every DP from here?

Not sure I follow. Do you mean panned in the negative review sense or in the stereo left / right sense?
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1451486 - 06/06/10 05:35 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
kiedysktos. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 425
Loc: Europe, Poland
I mean does low and high notes sound wide spread or not. When you press the lowest key, is it significantly louder in your left ear?


Edited by kiedysktos. (06/06/10 05:36 PM)
_________________________
Roland FP-4

Top
#1451489 - 06/06/10 05:50 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: kiedysktos.]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4343
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: kiedysktos.
I mean does low and high notes sound wide spread or not. When you press the lowest key, is it significantly louder in your left ear?

Yes, that's the case in all DPs and PC samplers I've reviewed. I listen for a smooth transition in stereo pan L=>R as the notes are played up the keyboard in the stretch test. The Sound Magic Imperial Grand 3D does this too but not smoothly at all. It must be kind of weird to play it and have adjacent notes popping out of random locations in the stereo field.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1452041 - 06/07/10 03:29 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: kiedysktos.]
ChrisA Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3841
Loc: Redondo Beach, California
Originally Posted By: kiedysktos.
I wonder does it make sense to investigate the way samples are panned in every DP from here?


Yes. Or if they allow you to control how it is done. Some piano VSTs allow yo to place the virtual microphones in 3D space, just as if you were mic'ing an acoustic piano

Control is required for recording because the normal bass on left is almost always wrong for recorded music. Recording tries to capture what audience would hear and they almost never sit on the piano bench with the player.

In a live classical piano performance the grand piano is almost always set up with keyboard on-end to audience. In this perspective the audience hears the bass to the rear. But mostly bass from the floor and highs reflect off the lid. You hear this if you are very close but past some distance it's all just room echo. If you were recording this you'd want the entire piano to be in the center and certainly not bass on left.

Top
#1461672 - 06/23/10 02:14 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: ChrisA]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4343
Loc: Northern NJ
Kawai CN33 Review

We now have a DPBSD MP3 of the Kawai CN33 - much thanks to Mawima for providing it! Mawima actually ran the DPBSD MIDI file over the three main pianos in there, the Concert Grand 1, Studio Grand 1, and Mellow Grand 1 patches. I'm restricting my analysis here to the Concert Grand 1, but the other MP3s are at the share point for those who are interested in listening to / analyzing them.

It is clear that the CN33 Concert Grand 1 patch shares the same sample set as the main piano voice on the CA63. By that I don't mean these two instruments share the same sample memory size - the attack phase signature is the same for both, but the lowest two octaves on the CN33 have significantly shorter attack and loop sample lengths than the CA63. As a result it is more obviously looped than the CA63, and the lower and mid notes could benefit from longer decay loops.

There is almost no stretching to speak of, other than the group of 2 and group of 4 that the CA63 has as well, and the stretching of these notes isn't audible. Four discreet velocity layers are visible in the phase views, but to my ear they are smoothly blended as I don't hear any velocity switching (at least for the single note tested by the DPBSD, C4 or middle C).

It passes the pedal down sympathetic resonance test, though audibly I find the effect has a somewhat bassy component - it isn't objectionable though. It also passes the key down sympathetic resonance test, and the effect is fairly realistic. Neither of these effects are present during MIDI playback, however. To hear them listen to the files kawai_cn33_cg1_damper_res_0-5-10.mp3 and kawai_cn33_cg1_string_res_0-5-10.mp3 respectively, which were also kindly provided by Mawima. The resonance was set to 0, then 5, and finally 10 for each of these manually played files.

It passes the brief pedal partial damping and the partial pedaling tests, but fails the pedal down silent replay test - I think I hear the note playing at velocity =1 at pedal up which is wrong. And there are no pedal up/down or key up sound effects.

Review below, MP3s and more analysis pics at the share point.


Spectral pan view of a lower octave of the stretch test. CA63 is on the left, CN33 on the right. It is very clear here that both share the same attack sample set, at least at this velocity.


Waveform view of the looping test with vertical zoom applied. Low note decay times are nice and long, but higher notes decay rather quickly. You can see evidence of the four lowest notes looping here too.


Spectral phase view of the looping test, compressed, for note C2. The attack sample and repeated loop sample are quite clearly seen here.


Spectral phase view of the stretch test, mid notes. Very little stretching and none visible in this view - 84 samples cover 88 notes.


Spectral pan view of the layer test. Four layers visible, no audible switching.


Spectral frequency view of layer test. Timber variation is audibly quite smooth.


--------------
- Kawai CN33 -
--------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dpbsd_v1.7_kawai_cn33_concert_grand_1.mp3
- Recorded by "Mawima".
PROS:
- Passes the pedal down sympathetic resonance test, the effect is somewhat bass heavy.
- Passes the key down sympathetic resonance test, the effect is fairly realistic.
- Passes the brief pedal partial damping test.
- Passes the partial pedaling test.
- Except for a stretch group of 2 and a group of 4, all notes are sampled.
- This is a smoothly blended multi-velocity sample set.
- Velocity switch @ vel=86,102,112 is visible but not audible.
CONS:
- Fails the pedal down silent replay test @ pedal up (note plays vel=1).
- Decay times are somewhat short in the higher registers (~1 to 1/2 Pianoteq, low to high).
- Attack sample lengths are (C1:C8): 1.8,2.1,2.1,1.8,1.7,1.6,1.1,? seconds.
- Loop sample lengths are (C1:C8): 0.8,0.8,0.7,0.8,0.7,0.7,0.6,? seconds.
- Obviously looped, lower and mid notes could benefit from longer decay loops.
- Stretch distances: 1(x72),2,4,1(x10) = 84 groups.
- No pedal up/down or key up sounds.
- No key down or pedal down sympathetic resonance via MIDI playback.
OTHER:
- Dynamic range 45dB (vel=1:127).
- MP3 levels: peak @ -0.57dB, noise floor @ -68dB.
- Date reviewed: 2010-06-20.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1461836 - 06/23/10 05:48 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2356
Loc: UK
Re: Kawai CN33 Review

Dewster, I'm another very appreciative person of your efforts and the work with the DPBSD project. I've been considering the CN33 and had decided to buy until I saw you post that you had the files from Mawima, and I have held off.

Now here's the thing, I find your reviews interesting, useful and revealing, but now I find it hard to know what to make of the CN33 review. The review itself is fine, thanks, but I don't know how to assess its worth with respect to my purchase decision. I know you like the Roland SN sound, but I don't like the HP30x series, don't want or can't afford a RD700GXF, and anyway they're mostly priced well above the CN33. So maybe I just continue with my own findings - the CN33 is a delight to play, sounds great (to me) and for the price it's a great DP. Have I missed anything really BAD that your review reveals that I'm likely to be disappointed with further down the line?

Top
#1461864 - 06/23/10 06:14 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: spanishbuddha]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: spanishbuddha

Now here's the thing, I find your reviews interesting, useful and revealing, but now I find it hard to know what to make of the CN33 review. The review itself is fine, thanks, but I don't know how to assess its worth with respect to my purchase decision.


I have to say that I too find all of this interesting. It's always nice to have some kind of scientific backing to confirm what our ears tell us.

I think it is important to state this - the bottom line for any purchase is how well you like the piano you've chosen or are thinking of buying.

I learned today that my AvantGrand has samples that are ... drum roll ... looped. The thing is, I can't hear those loops. Should I have held out until Yamaha introduces a digital sample that contains no loops? I'll still rely on my ears and the connection that exists between the tactile response of the action and the sound I expect to hear.

_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

AvantGrand N3, CP5

Top
#1461879 - 06/23/10 06:41 PM Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Dave Horne]
superwang Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/09/10
Posts: 27
Hi Dewster:

Thanks for another cool test result. I have a question. I am not technically proficient and am sure I'm missing something.

The Kawai brochure notes that:

"The beautiful sound of the EX grand piano is at the heart of
the new CN Series, with all eighty-eight keys of this world-class
instrument painstakingly recorded, analyzed, and reproduced
as high-fidelity digital waveforms."

But the test results note that there are 84 samples. From reading the literature I expected the number would be 88. Am not understanding the literature or the result correctly?

Top
Page 27 of 46 < 1 2 ... 25 26 27 28 29 ... 45 46 >

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
ad (Casio)
Celviano by Casio Rebate
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Pianoteq vs Digital Piano vs Acoustic Piano
by wildpig
Yesterday at 11:57 PM
Baldwin Hamilton 1941
by JMN12
Yesterday at 11:13 PM
Tucson, AZ: Is Arizona Room a bad place for a piano?
by Paul678
Yesterday at 08:14 PM
Kissin plays...
by JoelW
Yesterday at 07:33 PM
For Sale : True Keys Pianos (bundle) American,Italian,Ger
man

by imyself
Yesterday at 05:51 PM
Who's Online
75 registered (Al LaPorte, barbaram, 255, AEMontoya, 17 invisible), 1016 Guests and 16 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76224 Members
42 Forums
157573 Topics
2314559 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission