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#1450294 - 06/04/10 04:46 PM Re: It is often said that 10,000 hours in a certain profession.. [Re: EJR]
Devane Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 403
Loc: Ireland
Originally Posted By: EJR
Maybe...

"Talent" = the ability to do the 10,000 hours of deliberate practice by which you acquire expert performance. That is, you can't put a square peg into a round hole.


Aha.....exactly.

Deliberate Practice= a certain "je ne sais quoi" aka aptitude/talent.

How does one force this state of mind? And why does some do it naturally? Can you catch up to someone who brain is wired for maths or music when yours isn't?


I have only scanned through that paper yet but what caught my attention was the minimum 10 years seems to have jumped up the 22 years. The old minimum 10,000/21,500 hour rule. 22 years or infinity seems to be a more accurate anthem.
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#1450630 - 06/05/10 06:08 AM Re: It is often said that 10,000 hours in a certain profession.. [Re: EJR]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7980
Originally Posted By: EJR
For those who may not have read this previously regarding 10000 hours and the role of deliberate practice, one of the key papers is here



Unfortunately, I am not part of the target audience for papers of that sort, and therefore don't understand parts of it. However, I did get as far as page 4, and was somewhat flummoxed by this paragraph, for various reasons -

J. R. Hayes (1981) confirmed that 10 years' experience is necessary in another domain, musical composition. He calculated an average of about 20 years from the time individuals started to study music until they first composed an outstanding piece of music. According to Hayes, this long preparation period is necessary because "the composer must know the timbres of the various instruments and the sound, look, and feel of chords and key structures" (p. 209). Most important, Hayes showed that the 10 or more years of necessary experience was not an artifact. Because musicians start very early, insufficient development may restrict their ability to compose before attaining adulthood. Those who started at ages younger than 6 years did not write their first eminent composition until 16.5 years later; those who started between ages 6 and 9 and older than 10 years of age required 22 and 21.5 years, respectively to compose their first distinguished work. Simon and Chase's (1973) "10-year rule" is supported by data from a wide range of domains: music (Sosniak, 1985), mathematics (Gustin, 1985), tennis (Monsaas, 1985), swimming (Kalinowski, 1985), and long-distance running (Wallingford, 1975).


So, it is 20 years or 10 years? And who decides what an "outstanding piece of music" is? Or "distinguished work"? And does this mean that Mendelssohn was studying music several years before he was born?

I also think it is somewhat weird that there is no particular distinction made between musicians who are composers and musicians who are performers. In other words, between experts who acquire highly refined physical skills along with more abstract musical knowledge, and those who don't necessarily acquire much physical skill at all, but presumably do acquire a different and more refined sort of abstract musical knowledge. I just have a lot of trouble believing that these two very different types of artistry can be lumped together that easily.

This whole 10-year discussion reminds me that some great pianist (Lhevinne, maybe?) said it took him the now-proverbial 10 years to get the Chopin Etude in thirds near to where he wanted it. So maybe there's also a 10-year rule that applies to each individual piece!!!

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#1450770 - 06/05/10 12:06 PM Re: It is often said that 10,000 hours in a certain profession.. [Re: wr]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6424
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: EJR
For those who may not have read this previously regarding 10000 hours and the role of deliberate practice, one of the key papers is here


J. R. Hayes (1981) confirmed that 10 years' experience is necessary in another domain, musical composition. He calculated an average of about 20 years from the time individuals started to study music until they first composed an outstanding piece of music. According to Hayes, this long preparation period is necessary because "the composer must know the timbres of the various instruments and the sound, look, and feel of chords and key structures" (p. 209). Most important, Hayes showed that the 10 or more years of necessary experience was not an artifact. Because musicians start very early, insufficient development may restrict their ability to compose before attaining adulthood. Those who started at ages younger than 6 years did not write their first eminent composition until 16.5 years later; those who started between ages 6 and 9 and older than 10 years of age required 22 and 21.5 years, respectively to compose their first distinguished work. Simon and Chase's (1973) "10-year rule" is supported by data from a wide range of domains: music (Sosniak, 1985), mathematics (Gustin, 1985), tennis (Monsaas, 1985), swimming (Kalinowski, 1985), and long-distance running (Wallingford, 1975).



1) Mr. Hayes was obviously writing about something he knew absolutely nothing about.

2) I don't think the 10,000 hour or 10-20 year rule applies to the world's "oldest profession"....... grin
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#1451101 - 06/05/10 10:53 PM Re: It is often said that 10,000 hours in a certain profession.. [Re: carey]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
Originally Posted By: carey
[quote=wr][quote=EJR]
I don't think the 10,000 hour or 10-20 year rule applies to the world's "oldest profession"....... grin



Like any other proffesion, some people excel more than others.. "The world's old profession" is no exception. I am sure the ones who are successful got their edge from hard work, whehter it's maintaining their physical attributes/skills.. etc. So while the 10,000 hr rule may not apply exactly, the principles of hard work=success still have merit smile

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#1451159 - 06/06/10 12:28 AM Re: It is often said that 10,000 hours in a certain profession.. [Re: etcetra]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5367
Loc: Europe
Chuck Norris was studying martial arts SO hard, that he bended time itself and the 10,000 hours passed like... in a minute!

laugh

I think that this study is just mentioning that talent alone won't cut it. You also need to work, sweat, etc to make anything happen. I can imagine that being 32 and a musician I have played more than 10,000 hours of piano, but I find that daily my ability diminishes little by little. and I've not lost touch with music, but with piano playing itself... A pity really, but there's no time any more.
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#1451747 - 06/07/10 05:48 AM Re: It is often said that 10,000 hours in a certain profession.. [Re: etcetra]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7980
Originally Posted By: etcetra
So while the 10,000 hr rule may not apply exactly, the principles of hard work=success still have merit smile


Well, obviously, the study didn't study failure, so I am not sure how you can be so sure. It may very well be that there are an equal number of people who have worked just as hard, but didn't succeed. Or it may even a larger number of people. Who knows? That isn't what they studied.

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