Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2
Topic Options
#1450294 - 06/04/10 04:46 PM Re: It is often said that 10,000 hours in a certain profession.. [Re: EJR]
Devane Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 403
Loc: Ireland
Originally Posted By: EJR
Maybe...

"Talent" = the ability to do the 10,000 hours of deliberate practice by which you acquire expert performance. That is, you can't put a square peg into a round hole.


Aha.....exactly.

Deliberate Practice= a certain "je ne sais quoi" aka aptitude/talent.

How does one force this state of mind? And why does some do it naturally? Can you catch up to someone who brain is wired for maths or music when yours isn't?


I have only scanned through that paper yet but what caught my attention was the minimum 10 years seems to have jumped up the 22 years. The old minimum 10,000/21,500 hour rule. 22 years or infinity seems to be a more accurate anthem.
_________________________
Say it to my face! wink
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b9rOji_PWY

Top
(ad) Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1450630 - 06/05/10 06:08 AM Re: It is often said that 10,000 hours in a certain profession.. [Re: EJR]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7753
Originally Posted By: EJR
For those who may not have read this previously regarding 10000 hours and the role of deliberate practice, one of the key papers is here



Unfortunately, I am not part of the target audience for papers of that sort, and therefore don't understand parts of it. However, I did get as far as page 4, and was somewhat flummoxed by this paragraph, for various reasons -

J. R. Hayes (1981) confirmed that 10 years' experience is necessary in another domain, musical composition. He calculated an average of about 20 years from the time individuals started to study music until they first composed an outstanding piece of music. According to Hayes, this long preparation period is necessary because "the composer must know the timbres of the various instruments and the sound, look, and feel of chords and key structures" (p. 209). Most important, Hayes showed that the 10 or more years of necessary experience was not an artifact. Because musicians start very early, insufficient development may restrict their ability to compose before attaining adulthood. Those who started at ages younger than 6 years did not write their first eminent composition until 16.5 years later; those who started between ages 6 and 9 and older than 10 years of age required 22 and 21.5 years, respectively to compose their first distinguished work. Simon and Chase's (1973) "10-year rule" is supported by data from a wide range of domains: music (Sosniak, 1985), mathematics (Gustin, 1985), tennis (Monsaas, 1985), swimming (Kalinowski, 1985), and long-distance running (Wallingford, 1975).


So, it is 20 years or 10 years? And who decides what an "outstanding piece of music" is? Or "distinguished work"? And does this mean that Mendelssohn was studying music several years before he was born?

I also think it is somewhat weird that there is no particular distinction made between musicians who are composers and musicians who are performers. In other words, between experts who acquire highly refined physical skills along with more abstract musical knowledge, and those who don't necessarily acquire much physical skill at all, but presumably do acquire a different and more refined sort of abstract musical knowledge. I just have a lot of trouble believing that these two very different types of artistry can be lumped together that easily.

This whole 10-year discussion reminds me that some great pianist (Lhevinne, maybe?) said it took him the now-proverbial 10 years to get the Chopin Etude in thirds near to where he wanted it. So maybe there's also a 10-year rule that applies to each individual piece!!!

Top
#1450770 - 06/05/10 12:06 PM Re: It is often said that 10,000 hours in a certain profession.. [Re: wr]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6202
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: EJR
For those who may not have read this previously regarding 10000 hours and the role of deliberate practice, one of the key papers is here


J. R. Hayes (1981) confirmed that 10 years' experience is necessary in another domain, musical composition. He calculated an average of about 20 years from the time individuals started to study music until they first composed an outstanding piece of music. According to Hayes, this long preparation period is necessary because "the composer must know the timbres of the various instruments and the sound, look, and feel of chords and key structures" (p. 209). Most important, Hayes showed that the 10 or more years of necessary experience was not an artifact. Because musicians start very early, insufficient development may restrict their ability to compose before attaining adulthood. Those who started at ages younger than 6 years did not write their first eminent composition until 16.5 years later; those who started between ages 6 and 9 and older than 10 years of age required 22 and 21.5 years, respectively to compose their first distinguished work. Simon and Chase's (1973) "10-year rule" is supported by data from a wide range of domains: music (Sosniak, 1985), mathematics (Gustin, 1985), tennis (Monsaas, 1985), swimming (Kalinowski, 1985), and long-distance running (Wallingford, 1975).



1) Mr. Hayes was obviously writing about something he knew absolutely nothing about.

2) I don't think the 10,000 hour or 10-20 year rule applies to the world's "oldest profession"....... grin
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

Top
#1451101 - 06/05/10 10:53 PM Re: It is often said that 10,000 hours in a certain profession.. [Re: carey]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
Originally Posted By: carey
[quote=wr][quote=EJR]
I don't think the 10,000 hour or 10-20 year rule applies to the world's "oldest profession"....... grin



Like any other proffesion, some people excel more than others.. "The world's old profession" is no exception. I am sure the ones who are successful got their edge from hard work, whehter it's maintaining their physical attributes/skills.. etc. So while the 10,000 hr rule may not apply exactly, the principles of hard work=success still have merit smile

Top
#1451159 - 06/06/10 12:28 AM Re: It is often said that 10,000 hours in a certain profession.. [Re: etcetra]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5212
Loc: Europe
Chuck Norris was studying martial arts SO hard, that he bended time itself and the 10,000 hours passed like... in a minute!

laugh

I think that this study is just mentioning that talent alone won't cut it. You also need to work, sweat, etc to make anything happen. I can imagine that being 32 and a musician I have played more than 10,000 hours of piano, but I find that daily my ability diminishes little by little. and I've not lost touch with music, but with piano playing itself... A pity really, but there's no time any more.
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#1451747 - 06/07/10 05:48 AM Re: It is often said that 10,000 hours in a certain profession.. [Re: etcetra]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7753
Originally Posted By: etcetra
So while the 10,000 hr rule may not apply exactly, the principles of hard work=success still have merit smile


Well, obviously, the study didn't study failure, so I am not sure how you can be so sure. It may very well be that there are an equal number of people who have worked just as hard, but didn't succeed. Or it may even a larger number of people. Who knows? That isn't what they studied.

Top
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
LAST CALL - Piano Newsletter Ideas!
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
99 registered (AmateurBob, A Guy, Anticlock, 29 invisible), 1337 Guests and 17 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75498 Members
42 Forums
156113 Topics
2292522 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Need advice on buying a Yamaha Disklavier
by Lady
32 minutes 16 seconds ago
Surge protection?
by TX-Bluebonnet
Today at 12:01 AM
Opening up an old Piano
by musicNow
Yesterday at 11:11 PM
Unusual Big Key Depth Yamaha Motif Xs7
by Ivan Jochner
Yesterday at 10:55 PM
Yamaha P255
by pianist.ame
Yesterday at 09:12 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission