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I completely agree.

I have heard the Verituner measures all partials. I have tried measuring the iH for every note in tunelab and tuning from that, but the results are much worse than when you fit a smooth curve to the iH data. I'm not sure why. Either because the modified Young model (n-th partial off by iH*(c(n)-1) with c(n) about n^2 but modified slightly to improve model) is not accurate enough. Or perhaps because of measurement errors, which are smoothed out when fitting the data. If you machine tune A5 as 4:2 octave to A4 and the measurement of the 4th partial of A4 was off for some reason the octave will be ruined. If you smooth the data first the error will be spread more or less evenly over many notes which may be unnoticeable.

Kees

Even the Verituner relies on assumptions...

1. the measured string, at the volume played represents the ih for all the strings of that note.

2. Ambient noise doesn't interfere with the measuring

3. We (techs) know what makes a good tuning and can instruct the machine what comparisons are important. (This is probably the biggest assumption!)

4 -? there are probably a bunch more...


Thanks to this thread I'm off ET again and tuning a mild Victorian-type tuning of my own design using Bill's mindless octaves. I've got a stretch really similar to the CHAS tuning which gets me really close for the tempered octaves. My temperament has a maximum offset of 2.1 cents, so it doesn't take much tweaking to get from the calculation to a nice aural finish.

Ron Koval
chicagoland

Thanks for your comment, Ron. I would love to hear some music recorded in your temperament. Also, can you detect any equal or quasi equal beating intervals such as G3-E4 and C4-E4, D3-B3 and G3-B3, E3-C#4 and A3-C#4 in your temperament? I believe they may be possible. All it takes is for the 5th to be a little more tempered than it is in ET for this to happen. If so, you may have a really fine sounding temperament! The pipe organ effect would be there too.

Ron,

If the stretch you're talking about is the stretch you posted in the VT forum I can tell you it works great for me. It's a little odd having a 0% setpoint, but it seems to work. I haven't tried your stretch with EBVT III, but that's next.

Greetings everyone,

Well, there was a slight snafu regarding my last A/B posting of "Il Postino". pppat, (Patrick Wingren) had offered to re-mix my 'raw' recordings for this A/B test. I was happy to have him do that, as he is a first rate recording engineer besides all his other talents! I basically took what he sent me, re-labeled them, and posted without listening to them afterwards. The problem was that instead of having 2 different temperaments, we had only 1. SO.....'our' apologies for the mix-up. Here is the corrected A/B test of "Il Postino". "Oh Danny Boy" did not have this same issue.

Kudos go to Jerry Groot, who pointed this out to me in a pvt msg! He thought I was pulling a fast one. LOL. I don't think there was any harm done, and it actually gives everyone a slightly better chance to figure out which is which. I am leaving the original incorrect A/B Postino files intact in that post, so you can compare.

Please feel free to post your answers and comments.


1. "Il Postino" No.1 corrected mp3 http://www.box.net/shared/0r6tm2z3pj

2. "Il Postino: No. 2 corrected mp3 http://www.box.net/shared/cn4qi6d82d



1. "Il Postino" No. 11 corrected WAV http://www.box.net/shared/s3m9ks4fj3

2. "Il Postino" No. 22 corrected WAV http://www.box.net/shared/8ct3k9dx2f

Interesting observation. Here is the interval diagram of EBVT3 on the C3-C4 octave:



And here on the C1-C2 octave, which is equalized quite a bit. The bass octave is tuned by considering octaves, double octaves, 5ths and octave and 5ths according to Bill's instructions.



In the treble I found rather the opposite effect, the "mindless" tuning makes it more unequal. There is however some vagueness in Bill's EBVT instructions (like "be especially sure that none of the 5ths in this area beat objectionably") which is hard to implement in a computer program, so things may also smooth out in the treble in aural tuning.

Kees

I'm currently "challenged" in the recording department.... Hope to fix that this summer!

Ralph, I've been using the stretch style that Ernest posted - with the A3-4 addition I use for both ppc and the box and a different A0 setting:

A0 8:1 30% / 6:3 70%
D3 4:1 50% / 3:1 50%

A3-4 4:2 50% / 3:1 50%

E6 4:1 50% / 3:1 50%
G7 4:1 50% / 3:1 50%

C8 4:1 70% / 8:1 30%

My Koval variable 2(2 cents max offset) is in the Verituner's well temperament directory.

Bill, the Verituner uses the ih information as well as the strength of the sounding partials to try and balance the double octave with the 12th. Since it does this BEFORE the temperament offset, aural is the only way to go once the two octave temperament is set. In fact, the best way I've found to handle challenging pianos is to set the temperament up higher than is normal for aural tuning - like D4-D6! Then use mindless octaves to absorb the scale madness into the temperament stretch going down towards the break.


So for the "machine" tuners out there, the only aural skills you need to do this type of tuning is finding where the double octave and the 12th have a similar quality with your note to be tuned. Machine set a two octave temperament from A3-A5 or higher if it's a spinet. Use the machine to get a starting position working out from there, then use the spinner to bookmark that location, allowing you to control how much sharper or flatter you move the note while comparing the two guide intervals - use the single octave as a "limiter" - allowing some swell without an obvious beat.

Ron Koval
chicagoland

Grandpianoman,

Thanks god it was only one temperament. As I said I could not hear any difference, and I was right. Ufff!

I will listen to the corrected files.

For the A/B test with Il Postino corrected files, I still hear no difference...

I was again going to plagiarize Rafael, but in the new files I feel the difference between A/B is spectacular in the opening. 'A' sounds warm and organic, 'B' sounds metallic and harsh. 'A' sounds like a whole, 'B' sounds like a bunch of strings trying to cooperate. 'A' is EBVT.

Well I stuck my neck out, hope I don't lose my head.

Kees

Gadzar,

Yes, I am glad it was only 1...and you were right in not hearing any differences!

HINT: No.2 in the IL Postino corrected post is No.1 and No.2 in the incorrect post.

Kees,

Now that you've mentioned it: yes I hear a difference but I can't use the terms warm against metallic, I better say 2 is more brilliant than 1, maybe a little louder also, in spite of equalization of volume.

GPM, Thanks for the hint.

That said, I am not able to tell which one is EBVT III.

To me, based on the few examples that I've heard, ET always sounds brighter, as if the hammers are harder. I don't explicitly hear any tuning.

Kees

I am not sure...

I don't believe ET is brighter, it is a little harsh. For me bright is a good quality in piano sound. In EBVT III some keys are sweet and others harsh.

All keys in ET are harsher than sweet keys in EBVT III but sweeter than harsh keys of EBVT III.

Bright is more a stretching and voicing issue.

Brilliant, bright,..., it's hard to put into words. In contrapuntal music well or meantone tempered sounds to me like specific vowels are attached to each note, so the melody sings.

Have you ever heard a harpsichord tuned in ET? To me it sounds like flossing your teeth with a metal string. On the piano ET is much better, but I think I still hear a little of that effect.

Kees

First, my thanks to Bill Bremmer for showing me another way to tune my piano. EBVT III has a unique and beautiful sound that enhances the piano beyond what ET can do. I think it deserves a solid place in piano tuning history. Second, my thanks to Patrick Wingren for his help in re-mixing these 3 A/B posts.

Here is the third installment in this A/B blind comparison. In the previous 2 A/B posts, I have kept the same order for the temperaments. These are also the same, No.1 and No.11 are the same temperament for all 3 A/B posts, as are No.2 and No.22.


Please feel free to post your answer as to which is ET and EBVT III, and any comments you might have.



1. "Out of Africa" No.1 mp3 http://www.box.net/shared/au7ryepfl3

2. "Out of Africa" No.2 mp3 http://www.box.net/shared/x49i77bss0


1. "Out of Africa" No. 11 WAV http://www.box.net/shared/q1m3asln81

2. "Out of Africa No. 22 WAV http://www.box.net/shared/g7tz1y7j7g

When an entire thread is based on the premise of offering samples for people to comment on, I'm surprised this posting did not raise any eyebrows or ire from anyone participating. It seems to show a lack of concern for accuracy from the same participants. I was criticised for pointing out in the past that there is no way to know or be certain how objective/fair the recordings were. I didn't even mention the embarrasment that can come from a snafu.

As an example to show how a thread of this nature can weave its own conclusionsand unfairly place ET in a bad light...

If I were to post the same single identical recording to the public as two recordings of two separate artists and then ask the public to identify which was which; I could simply sit back and watch the comments come in. In theory the results would be 50/50 but human opinion does not work that way. After I tally the results, I simply assign the highest tally to the one that I want to favour (with all the positive comments from the participants to back it up.) Maybe you think this is insignificant. But if I were to say one recording was played by a well known respected artist and the other was played by a well known dolt, I now have the ability to embarrass any person who dared venture a guess. Nobody in these threads has the equipment or know how to positively identify the accuracy or labelling of the tunings claimed. Grandpianoman admitted, even unintended mistakes have been made. Why would anyone stake their reputation on a guess about something in which a deliberate switch or an accident can leave them embarrassed?

I have given up listening to these samples. I would prefer not to try to listen to the temperament, because I judge those on strict standards independently of how the music sounds. The samples are not what I would judge. I would also have to separate the tuning from the temperament. A bad tuning will make any temperament sound bad.

To make a judgement of an unequal temperament, at the very least, I would like to hear the same music played in different keys. It should sound better in some keys and worse in others. Therein lies the problem with unequal temperaments: If they do sound better in some keys rather than others, what happens when someone wants a piece transposed? If the difference is not that great, then why bother using an unequal temperament?

[Quote by BDB]
"...If they do sound better in some keys rather than others, what happens when someone wants a piece transposed?"

You would be told the same thing I was told about the octaves being noisy... basically nobody plays in those keys or octaves are not played in music. So much for rag-time, or Chopins' Fantasia Impromptu ect..

That was very nice of you Emmery, to refrain from embarrassing yourself because of our "snafu". We would hate to be the ones that caused that, heaven forbid.

On the contrary Emmery, as soon as I found out it was a mistake, thanks to Jerry Groot, I immediately was up front about it, posted the correction, and apologized. No "deliberate trick" here as you suggest. You can pm Jerry and ask him if that is true. How is that for transparency and honesty?

Your insinuation accusing Patrick and I of a "lack of concern" is both insulting and an affront to our intelligence.

ET has not been positioned here by me, to show it in a bad light. My "not perfect" tuning does not do any disservice to ET either. Any pro tuner can hear that some of my unisons were not spot on, and the 5th-6th octaves were not perfect. Does that preclude them hearing the difference in the temperaments? No, it does not. I don't see any response from you or BDB for that matter, as to which is ET or EBVT III. I take it you feel it's impossible to do because of my bad tuning? I see, how interesting. I am so sorry my 'bad tuning' and possible 'maniputlation' of the recordings has caused you such grief as to not be able to post a simple response. If you had tried, and you were correct, or incorrect for that matter, then I would feel differently about your views on the subject of EBVT III-ET.

FYI, every A/B comparison I posted here, was played by the same pianist. which takes away the possibility of interpretive license from the equation. Btw, they are not "dolts". The are professional pianists working in the business today.

I would love to hear yours and BDB's tuning of ET. It would be a nice contrast to hear a professional tuner's take on what their particular version of ET sounds like. Please feel free to post them here if you like.