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#1455240 - 06/12/10 04:48 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: AZNpiano]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
The D Major Fugue from WTC-II, for example, would call for lots of pedaling.


It would? I actually just finished playing that fugue and see no need for lots of pedal, nor is there a need for LOTS of pedal in any of the WTC.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1455254 - 06/12/10 05:12 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: stores]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5512
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: stores
I actually just finished playing that fugue and see no need for lots of pedal, nor is there a need for LOTS of pedal in any of the WTC.


What about the E minor Prelude in WTC-I? B-flat minor Prelude in WTC-I? And, of course, the most overpedaled piece ever: The C Major Prelude in WTC-I.
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#1455273 - 06/12/10 05:37 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: AZNpiano]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: stores
I actually just finished playing that fugue and see no need for lots of pedal, nor is there a need for LOTS of pedal in any of the WTC.


What about the E minor Prelude in WTC-I? B-flat minor Prelude in WTC-I? And, of course, the most overpedaled piece ever: The C Major Prelude in WTC-I.


What about them? There's no need for pedal in any of them, as I said before.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1455281 - 06/12/10 05:46 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: stores]
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 2649
Loc: Netherlands
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: stores
I actually just finished playing that fugue and see no need for lots of pedal, nor is there a need for LOTS of pedal in any of the WTC.


What about the E minor Prelude in WTC-I? B-flat minor Prelude in WTC-I? And, of course, the most overpedaled piece ever: The C Major Prelude in WTC-I.


What about them? There's no need for pedal in any of them, as I said before.
Agree!!
_________________________
Longtemps, je me suis couch de bonne heure, but not anymore!

Mussorgski tableaux d'une exposition/Ravel miroirs

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#1455321 - 06/12/10 06:26 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: sandalholme]
Mattardo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 1306
Originally Posted By: sandalholme
This may appear to be "too expert", but wait until the end of the post. I spent many decades playing Bach on the piano, I then spent two decades playing Bach on the harpsichord. I have performed in public on both instruments. The last decade or so have seen me return exclusively to the piano (couldn't afford 2 high quality instruments) so I now play Bach on the piano having extensively learned how to play him on the hapsichord.
So, I have a deep experience of both. The result is (with one exception), whatever works for your conception of Bach, that particular piece and your instrument. The exception? Part playing. You cannot "bring out" the subject of a fugue - in terms of dynamics - on a harpsichord, only by articulation and intention. So I don't attempt to on the piano. "Intention"? Well, I believe that if we focus on an area of the music - say the appearance of a theme in the bass - it will sound differently to when we just play all the music without that differentiation. Doesn't necessarily have to be "brought out" dynamically. Fugue subjects don't have to shout out their appearance.
Basically, know the tools - your instrument, your technique, your perception of the work, your ears - and produce what you want to in whatever way you can. We realise Bach on the piano, particularly the modern grand, he did not write for it. (Unlike Beethoven, who probably did have a vision of instruments far more powerful than the ones he wrote for.) So employ your resources and enjoy the results.


Amen!

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#1455334 - 06/12/10 06:34 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: sandalholme]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: sandalholme
This may appear to be "too expert", but wait until the end of the post. I spent many decades playing Bach on the piano, I then spent two decades playing Bach on the harpsichord. I have performed in public on both instruments. The last decade or so have seen me return exclusively to the piano (couldn't afford 2 high quality instruments) so I now play Bach on the piano having extensively learned how to play him on the hapsichord.
So, I have a deep experience of both. The result is (with one exception), whatever works for your conception of Bach, that particular piece and your instrument. The exception? Part playing. You cannot "bring out" the subject of a fugue - in terms of dynamics - on a harpsichord, only by articulation and intention. So I don't attempt to on the piano. "Intention"? Well, I believe that if we focus on an area of the music - say the appearance of a theme in the bass - it will sound differently to when we just play all the music without that differentiation. Doesn't necessarily have to be "brought out" dynamically. Fugue subjects don't have to shout out their appearance.
Basically, know the tools - your instrument, your technique, your perception of the work, your ears - and produce what you want to in whatever way you can. We realise Bach on the piano, particularly the modern grand, he did not write for it. (Unlike Beethoven, who probably did have a vision of instruments far more powerful than the ones he wrote for.) So employ your resources and enjoy the results.


No, it doesn't appear "expert" at all...not to worry. I have a great deal of experience on both instruments as well and you make some good points until you begin to speak about voicing...after that I stopped paying attention.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1455501 - 06/12/10 11:45 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: AZNpiano]
Brandon_W_T Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1940
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
whilst I am no pro harpsichordist, it is a MUCH more complex form of playing than traditional pianos. There are ways to dynamically change it, to make it "sing" cantabile, that people cant understand unless they try it themselves.

Its not just note on- note off forte. Its quite flexible.
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Home -
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--NEW!--- 1964ish Conn 640 vacuum tube theatre organ! (with leslie!) smile

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1998 Bedient (Built about 45 minutes from me!) 2m/pedal 24 rank Cavaille-Coll style pipe organ

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#1455578 - 06/13/10 06:38 AM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: stores]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7895
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich
Didn't Bach prefer the Clavichord to the harpsichord anyway?

(god do I hate harpsichord haha)


He may have personally liked playing the clavichord the most, but that doesn't mean he was writing with it in mind when composing any specific work, does it? After all, most clavichords are so quiet that they just don't work in public performance. Bach didn't write any clavichord concertos, after all.


You're right, he wrote KEYBOARD concertos, thus meaning they're not relegated to the harpsichord.


I don't know what the source material for them actually indicates, if anything, nor whether it is the same for each one, but they do seem to be called "harpsichord concertos" quite often. Even the entry on Bach's concertos in Grove refers to them in that way, rather than using the generic "keyboard".

Regardless of nomenclature, is there any doubt that when they were played in public by Bach and his kids, they were in fact performed on harpsichord(s)?

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#1455598 - 06/13/10 08:30 AM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: wr]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
Yes but does that mean he liked the harpsichord more?
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1455645 - 06/13/10 10:46 AM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: Pogorelich.]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2469
Loc: France
I have no objection to anyone playing Bach with pedal. A little or a lot of it, to each his own.

However, in my view anyone who has not thoroughly studied Bach without using the pedal at all is necessarily lacking important elements in his technique and in his understanding of this music.

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#1455660 - 06/13/10 11:19 AM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: landorrano]
Brandon_W_T Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1940
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
Well bach wrote most of his music for the organ, or on the organ.... sooo. We can maybe conclude that he was a BIG fan of the organ, or there were not many harpsichords/clavis at his disposal. wink


Edited by Brandon_W_T (06/13/10 12:23 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling
_________________________
______
Home -
1905 Story and Clark Art Case smile

--NEW!--- 1964ish Conn 640 vacuum tube theatre organ! (with leslie!) smile

Grandmas- New Hyundai petite baby grand

Church (the organ I practice on)-
1998 Bedient (Built about 45 minutes from me!) 2m/pedal 24 rank Cavaille-Coll style pipe organ

Top
#1455666 - 06/13/10 11:29 AM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: Brandon_W_T]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Brandon_W_T
Well bach wrote most of his much for the organ, or on the organ.... sooo. We can maybe conclude that he was a BIG fan of the organ, or there were not many harpsichords/clavis at his disposal. wink


He did? Hmm. That's news to me.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1455706 - 06/13/10 12:22 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: stores]
Brandon_W_T Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1940
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
How is that news when its true? Maybe you should do some research like I have.
_________________________
______
Home -
1905 Story and Clark Art Case smile

--NEW!--- 1964ish Conn 640 vacuum tube theatre organ! (with leslie!) smile

Grandmas- New Hyundai petite baby grand

Church (the organ I practice on)-
1998 Bedient (Built about 45 minutes from me!) 2m/pedal 24 rank Cavaille-Coll style pipe organ

Top
#1455713 - 06/13/10 12:41 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: Brandon_W_T]
Mattardo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 1306
From what I remember, Bach owned a harpsichord (a large one) and a clavichord, at least.
While much of Bach is possible to interchange between instruments, some of it was specifically written for clavichord (some parts of the Clavierubung have notations to do so), and many of his works appear to have been written for stringed instruments. Of course, he also wrote for organ, as well (he worked for churches, after all!) - but I wouldn't say that the majority of his more frequently-played works were for organ specifically.

In those days, it was the rare individual who had access to a full-blown organ, so much of the music he wrote for his students was probably meant for the more easily available instruments of the time. Organs were expensive and churches usually had them, harpsichords were less expensive but still expensive to maintain, while clavichords were more easily affordable and suitable for the small home and very portable. So try to imagine who he was writing for, what the situation was, and you might be able to make some sort of guess as to a good instrument.

Unfortunately, there is no clear-cut answer as to what works were meant for what instruments, no matter what anyone says - and they have said a lot! Almost every single book on Bach or his musical time tackles the issue, to some degree. This is why many performers choose to record some of his works on multiple instrument types.

There is an inventory list somewhere that lists what Bach owned when he died.
Among them: 2 Lute-Harpsichords, 3 harpsichords, 1 lute, 1 spinet. I think he also had some organ practice pedals or something similar.
This site gives a good breakdown on some of the arguments over clavichord-usage:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Topics/Life.htm

It's helpful to know that his son Carl was quite fond of the clavichord and gives us a large repetoire for the instrument, a fondness he probably picked up from his pop.


Edited by Mattardo (06/13/10 12:42 PM)

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#1455721 - 06/13/10 12:46 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: wr]
Mattardo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 1306
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich
Didn't Bach prefer the Clavichord to the harpsichord anyway?

(god do I hate harpsichord haha)


He may have personally liked playing the clavichord the most, but that doesn't mean he was writing with it in mind when composing any specific work, does it? After all, most clavichords are so quiet that they just don't work in public performance. Bach didn't write any clavichord concertos, after all.


You're right, he wrote KEYBOARD concertos, thus meaning they're not relegated to the harpsichord.


I don't know what the source material for them actually indicates, if anything, nor whether it is the same for each one, but they do seem to be called "harpsichord concertos" quite often. Even the entry on Bach's concertos in Grove refers to them in that way, rather than using the generic "keyboard".

Regardless of nomenclature, is there any doubt that when they were played in public by Bach and his kids, they were in fact performed on harpsichord(s)?


Yes, they were harpsichord concertos specifically. Harpsichords were very common in those days, to be used for the continuo playing that kept the players together, so they were easily available in such a situation. Whenever you see a work that is from that time, just assume there would be a harpsichord tinkling along in the background, in most cases.

The clavichord, while a lovely little thing, was not suitable for public performance with other instruments, it was a more private, personal isntrument. Of course, we can be thankful that if became so popular, as our modern piano probably owes a lot to it.

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#1455728 - 06/13/10 12:57 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: Brandon_W_T]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Brandon_W_T
How is that news when its true? Maybe you should do some research like I have.


LOL. I've probably been doing research for half as long as you've been alive. At any rate, Bach composed the greatest majority of his works for voice...not organ, harpsichord, or any keyboard instrument.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1455731 - 06/13/10 01:02 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: stores]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
I assumed he meant "among the keyboard works."
But I would agree it's not "most" among those either.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1455732 - 06/13/10 01:02 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: Mattardo]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Mattardo
From what I remember, Bach owned a harpsichord (a large one) and a clavichord, at least.
While much of Bach is possible to interchange between instruments, some of it was specifically written for clavichord (some parts of the Clavierubung have notations to do so), and many of his works appear to have been written for stringed instruments. Of course, he also wrote for organ, as well (he worked for churches, after all!) - but I wouldn't say that the majority of his more frequently-played works were for organ specifically.

In those days, it was the rare individual who had access to a full-blown organ, so much of the music he wrote for his students was probably meant for the more easily available instruments of the time. Organs were expensive and churches usually had them, harpsichords were less expensive but still expensive to maintain, while clavichords were more easily affordable and suitable for the small home and very portable. So try to imagine who he was writing for, what the situation was, and you might be able to make some sort of guess as to a good instrument.

Unfortunately, there is no clear-cut answer as to what works were meant for what instruments, no matter what anyone says - and they have said a lot! Almost every single book on Bach or his musical time tackles the issue, to some degree. This is why many performers choose to record some of his works on multiple instrument types.

There is an inventory list somewhere that lists what Bach owned when he died.
Among them: 2 Lute-Harpsichords, 3 harpsichords, 1 lute, 1 spinet. I think he also had some organ practice pedals or something similar.
This site gives a good breakdown on some of the arguments over clavichord-usage:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Topics/Life.htm

It's helpful to know that his son Carl was quite fond of the clavichord and gives us a large repetoire for the instrument, a fondness he probably picked up from his pop.


The list of instruments in Bach's estate does contain several harpsichords, but no clavichords. What's interesting is though he remarked more than once that he preferred the clavichord, one didn't exist in his home at the time of his death (of course that's not to say he never owned one).

Bach's organ works DO, actually, outnumber his compositions for other keyboard instruments, though it's for voice that the greatest majority of his works were written (largely due to his church work).
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1455734 - 06/13/10 01:03 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: stores]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
Maybe he meant most keyboard works?
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1455735 - 06/13/10 01:06 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: AZNpiano]
sandalholme Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 778
Loc: Dorset, UK
How do you shape on a harpsichord? Phrasing, articulation. That is minute changes in the lengths of notes and the gaps between notes which provide a "shape" to the music. Nothing to do with dynamics. I would argue that the shape of music on any instrument, including the piano, is more to do with changes in phrasing and articulation than changes in dynamics. Dynamic changes alter the emotional temperature, not the shape.
Quoting Francois Couperin in his preface to his 1st book of ordres:
"Experience has taught me that strong hands, capable of the most rapid and light execution, are not always equally successful in tender and expressive pieces. For my part, I frankly confess that I would much sooner be moved than astonished.
The harpsichord is a complete instrument by virtue of its range and sufficient unto itself. However, as one can neither swell nor diminish its sounds, I shall always be grateful to those who, by consummate skill supported by good taste, are able to render this instrument capable of expression."

Couperin was probably the greatest composer for the harpsichord in terms of writing music specifically for that instrument and no other and he valued expression above virtuosity. Seems to me that he had faith in what a harpsichord can achieve.

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#1455740 - 06/13/10 01:07 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: Mattardo]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Mattardo
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich
Didn't Bach prefer the Clavichord to the harpsichord anyway?

(god do I hate harpsichord haha)


He may have personally liked playing the clavichord the most, but that doesn't mean he was writing with it in mind when composing any specific work, does it? After all, most clavichords are so quiet that they just don't work in public performance. Bach didn't write any clavichord concertos, after all.


You're right, he wrote KEYBOARD concertos, thus meaning they're not relegated to the harpsichord.


I don't know what the source material for them actually indicates, if anything, nor whether it is the same for each one, but they do seem to be called "harpsichord concertos" quite often. Even the entry on Bach's concertos in Grove refers to them in that way, rather than using the generic "keyboard".

Regardless of nomenclature, is there any doubt that when they were played in public by Bach and his kids, they were in fact performed on harpsichord(s)?


Yes, they were harpsichord concertos specifically. Harpsichords were very common in those days, to be used for the continuo playing that kept the players together, so they were easily available in such a situation. Whenever you see a work that is from that time, just assume there would be a harpsichord tinkling along in the background, in most cases.

The clavichord, while a lovely little thing, was not suitable for public performance with other instruments, it was a more private, personal isntrument. Of course, we can be thankful that if became so popular, as our modern piano probably owes a lot to it.


Actually no, not all of the concerti are termed "harpsichord concerto". At least three of them bear the title "keyboard concerto".
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1455741 - 06/13/10 01:08 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: stores]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: stores
.....Bach's organ works DO, actually, outnumber his compositions for other keyboard instruments.....

THEY DO?
Then I'd give him "credit" on what he said.

It depends on what we mean by "compositions." smile
If the WTC (2 books) counts as 48 (and why shouldn't it? it's called "the 48") smile and we add the suites, partitas, various stray works like the French Overture, and top it off with the inventions (2- and 3- part), I would have thought the organ works would hardly keep pace, if we're talking about "how many." Even if we mean duration.....I'd think organ would still be lagging.

Mind you, I don't think these "counts" matter for anything.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1455743 - 06/13/10 01:13 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: sandalholme]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: sandalholme
How do you shape on a harpsichord? Phrasing, articulation. That is minute changes in the lengths of notes and the gaps between notes which provide a "shape" to the music. Nothing to do with dynamics. I would argue that the shape of music on any instrument, including the piano, is more to do with changes in phrasing and articulation than changes in dynamics. Dynamic changes alter the emotional temperature, not the shape.
Quoting Francois Couperin in his preface to his 1st book of ordres:
"Experience has taught me that strong hands, capable of the most rapid and light execution, are not always equally successful in tender and expressive pieces. For my part, I frankly confess that I would much sooner be moved than astonished.
The harpsichord is a complete instrument by virtue of its range and sufficient unto itself. However, as one can neither swell nor diminish its sounds, I shall always be grateful to those who, by consummate skill supported by good taste, are able to render this instrument capable of expression."

Couperin was probably the greatest composer for the harpsichord in terms of writing music specifically for that instrument and no other and he valued expression above virtuosity. Seems to me that he had faith in what a harpsichord can achieve.


I think you are confusing shape with expression.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#1455745 - 06/13/10 01:17 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: Mark_C]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: stores
.....Bach's organ works DO, actually, outnumber his compositions for other keyboard instruments.....

THEY DO?
Then I'd give him "credit" on what he said.

It depends on what we mean by "compositions."
If the WTC (2 books) counts as 48, and if we then add the suites, partitas, various stray works like the French Overture, and top it off with the inventions (2- and 3- part), I would have thought the organ works would hardly keep pace, if we're talking about "how many." Even if we mean duration.....I'd think organ would still be lagging.


He said Bach wrote most of his music for the organ, which isn't correct. Had he said he wrote the majority of his keyboard works for the organ, then he would have been right. In terms of numbers the organ works win, but only slightly (of course the organ list is heavily laden with chorales). Take out the chorales and the scales tip dramatically. Specifically, the difference quantitatively, is less than 20.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1455747 - 06/13/10 01:18 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: Mark_C]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Mark_C

Mind you, I don't think these "counts" matter for anything.


They don't.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1455751 - 06/13/10 01:22 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: stores]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: stores
.....In terms of numbers the organ works win, but only slightly (of course the organ list is heavily laden with chorales).....

AHA!!
You're counting the CHORALES??????

I've never thought of those as organ works.

I know the number of them very well -- "371" is firmly in my mind, and I've had fun doing all kinds of mathematical things with the number.
(It's a great number.) smile
But I never thought of them as organ works.
I thought of them as, well, pure music.

If the chorales count, it's tough to try to make any kind of point against what Brandon said -- whichever way he meant it.


Edited by Mark_C (06/13/10 01:25 PM)
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1455754 - 06/13/10 01:27 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: Mark_C]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: stores
.....In terms of numbers the organ works win, but only slightly (of course the organ list is heavily laden with chorales).....

AHA!!
You're counting the CHORALES??????

I've never thought of those as organ works.

I know the number of them very well -- "371" is firmly in my mind, and I've had fun doing all kinds of mathematical things with the number.
(It's a great number.) smile
But I never thought of them as organ works.
I thought of them as, well, pure music.

If the chorales count, it's tough to try to make any kind of point against what Brandon said -- whichever way he meant it.


Well, if one wants to be technical and count those works where an instrument is present, then I suppose we do have to count the chorales too. And that disparity of less than 20 does include "with the chorales". So, I suppose it's up to whomever to decide what they want to include.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1455805 - 06/13/10 02:33 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: stores]
Brandon_W_T Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1940
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
According to many historians, the Lute-Harpsichord was his favorite instrument.

http://www.baroquemusic.org/barluthp.html

Now what may he have written for that instrument? We will never know. But he owned one!
_________________________
______
Home -
1905 Story and Clark Art Case smile

--NEW!--- 1964ish Conn 640 vacuum tube theatre organ! (with leslie!) smile

Grandmas- New Hyundai petite baby grand

Church (the organ I practice on)-
1998 Bedient (Built about 45 minutes from me!) 2m/pedal 24 rank Cavaille-Coll style pipe organ

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#1455874 - 06/13/10 04:41 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: Brandon_W_T]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Brandon_W_T
According to many historians, the Lute-Harpsichord was his favorite instrument.

http://www.baroquemusic.org/barluthp.html

Now what may he have written for that instrument? We will never know. But he owned one!


It's thought that BWV 996 was written for the lute harpsichord. I can't say I've ever heard, or read that it was Bach's favorite instrument, but I suppose it's possible, since he did have a fondness for the clavichord.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1455929 - 06/13/10 06:14 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: stores]
Brandon_W_T Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1940
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
Id love to play one. Certainly looks bizarre. Like an over-sized... lute!
_________________________
______
Home -
1905 Story and Clark Art Case smile

--NEW!--- 1964ish Conn 640 vacuum tube theatre organ! (with leslie!) smile

Grandmas- New Hyundai petite baby grand

Church (the organ I practice on)-
1998 Bedient (Built about 45 minutes from me!) 2m/pedal 24 rank Cavaille-Coll style pipe organ

Top
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