Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad) End Stage Fright
End Stage Fright
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#1454119 - 06/10/10 05:24 PM Pedal and Bach
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 2594
Loc: Netherlands
this is an extension of some other thread, it deserves all attention, instead of being a mere byproduct, so:
What are your opinions about playing J.S.Bach on the piano, at all/with,without pedal/dynamics/'interpretation'/speed/ etc.
_________________________
Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!

Chopin op.28/20/31/39/54

Top
(ad) Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1454151 - 06/10/10 06:10 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: dolce sfogato]
Brandon_W_T Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1940
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
I play it, usually, the way that I think sounds the best to me. Sometimes I will use a pedal, but sometimes I dont.

I usually do keep it at a fairly consistent tempo, unless its an organ piece, or another instruments piece, then I ad my own dynamics to how others play it on the other instrument.
_________________________
______
Home -
1905 Story and Clark Art Case smile

--NEW!--- 1964ish Conn 640 vacuum tube theatre organ! (with leslie!) smile

Grandmas- New Hyundai petite baby grand

Church (the organ I practice on)-
1998 Bedient (Built about 45 minutes from me!) 2m/pedal 24 rank Cavaille-Coll style pipe organ

Top
#1454155 - 06/10/10 06:15 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: Brandon_W_T]
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 2594
Loc: Netherlands
I play the Goldbergs f.i. totally without, no problem, I'm in a different state of mind as a pianist, well, not a 'pianist' at all, a devote Bach-addict, but in the Partita's I'd like to use a bit of the right foot now and then, very inconsistent, agree..
_________________________
Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!

Chopin op.28/20/31/39/54

Top
#1454194 - 06/10/10 07:15 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: dolce sfogato]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10297
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Quote:
this is an extension of some other thread


I wonder which one that might be.... smile

I'm not a purist about this. I have no objections to the judicious use of pedal. The harpsichord has different resonance characteristics from a piano, and in places a little help from the pedal allows for better and more accurate playing than a crabbed finger legato. On the other hand, I don't particularly think much of heavily pedaled and blurred Bach. I just find the sound unappealing.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

Top
#1454270 - 06/10/10 09:41 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: Piano*Dad]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4491
Loc: in the past
Why not. If you want no pedal and no dynamics why would you play it on piano anyway? You'd be better off with harpsichord and clavichord.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#1454281 - 06/10/10 10:09 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: dolce sfogato]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19285
Loc: New York
I think different arguments and ideas are valid -- not only because we don't know what Bach would have thought, but because various different approaches work, if done well.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

Top
#1454282 - 06/10/10 10:10 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: dolce sfogato]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19285
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: dolce sfogato
f.i.

?

("for instance"?)
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

Top
#1454284 - 06/10/10 10:11 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: Mark_C]
gooddog Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 4669
Loc: Seattle area, WA
I like my Bach to sound clean and unblurred so I try to refrain from using more than a little pedal. I do try to "finger pedal" as much as possible.
_________________________
Best regards,

Deborah

Top
#1454286 - 06/10/10 10:12 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: Mark_C]
Brandon_W_T Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1940
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
I agree on the harpsichord having a different resonance, and a different singing tendency, so the argument that a harpsichord resonates like a no pedal piano, isn't fully true.
_________________________
______
Home -
1905 Story and Clark Art Case smile

--NEW!--- 1964ish Conn 640 vacuum tube theatre organ! (with leslie!) smile

Grandmas- New Hyundai petite baby grand

Church (the organ I practice on)-
1998 Bedient (Built about 45 minutes from me!) 2m/pedal 24 rank Cavaille-Coll style pipe organ

Top
#1454293 - 06/10/10 10:15 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: Brandon_W_T]
gooddog Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 4669
Loc: Seattle area, WA
I mentioned elsewhere that I recently had an opportunity to play Bach on an organ. My efforts to avoid the pedal, finger pedal and stick to the nuances in the score really paid off. Unlike on the piano, the sustained notes continued to play and sounded fantastic to my ears. Had I depended more on the pedal, I don't know if I would have been able to pull this off.
_________________________
Best regards,

Deborah

Top
#1454304 - 06/10/10 10:24 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: Brandon_W_T]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10297
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Originally Posted By: Brandon_W_T
I agree on the harpsichord having a different resonance, and a different singing tendency, so the argument that a harpsichord resonates like a no pedal piano, isn't fully true.


I don't know if this is in reference to my post, but if it is then I think you have misunderstood what I said. I did not say that a harpsichord resonates like a no-pedal piano. In fact, I was claiming rather the opposite. A piano's sound tends to cut off quite sharply. The dampers usually work all too well! In a sense, judicious use of the pedal can help a pianist avoid awkward and crabbed finger legato while maintaining the musical line. I just don't see this as a sufficient argument for 'anything goes.'
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

Top
#1454334 - 06/10/10 10:59 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: Piano*Dad]
Brandon_W_T Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1940
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
I think you misunderstood mine too. I said a Piano does not react like a harpsichord. Maybe a sustain pedal on a harpsichord can help certain things. But a piano will never sound or react like a harpsichord. Different dampers, and ways of producing sound all together, so different effects will occur.
_________________________
______
Home -
1905 Story and Clark Art Case smile

--NEW!--- 1964ish Conn 640 vacuum tube theatre organ! (with leslie!) smile

Grandmas- New Hyundai petite baby grand

Church (the organ I practice on)-
1998 Bedient (Built about 45 minutes from me!) 2m/pedal 24 rank Cavaille-Coll style pipe organ

Top
#1454484 - 06/11/10 07:38 AM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: Brandon_W_T]
sandalholme Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 743
Loc: Dorset, UK
This may appear to be "too expert", but wait until the end of the post. I spent many decades playing Bach on the piano, I then spent two decades playing Bach on the harpsichord. I have performed in public on both instruments. The last decade or so have seen me return exclusively to the piano (couldn't afford 2 high quality instruments) so I now play Bach on the piano having extensively learned how to play him on the hapsichord.
So, I have a deep experience of both. The result is (with one exception), whatever works for your conception of Bach, that particular piece and your instrument. The exception? Part playing. You cannot "bring out" the subject of a fugue - in terms of dynamics - on a harpsichord, only by articulation and intention. So I don't attempt to on the piano. "Intention"? Well, I believe that if we focus on an area of the music - say the appearance of a theme in the bass - it will sound differently to when we just play all the music without that differentiation. Doesn't necessarily have to be "brought out" dynamically. Fugue subjects don't have to shout out their appearance.
Basically, know the tools - your instrument, your technique, your perception of the work, your ears - and produce what you want to in whatever way you can. We realise Bach on the piano, particularly the modern grand, he did not write for it. (Unlike Beethoven, who probably did have a vision of instruments far more powerful than the ones he wrote for.) So employ your resources and enjoy the results.

Top
#1454529 - 06/11/10 09:56 AM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: sandalholme]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4491
Loc: in the past
Didn't Bach prefer the Clavichord to the harpsichord anyway?

(god do I hate harpsichord haha)
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#1454547 - 06/11/10 10:20 AM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: sandalholme]
gooddog Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 4669
Loc: Seattle area, WA
Originally Posted By: sandalholme
I believe that if we focus on an area of the music - say the appearance of a theme in the bass - it will sound differently to when we just play all the music without that differentiation. Doesn't necessarily have to be "brought out" dynamically. Fugue subjects don't have to shout out their appearance.
I'm interested to hear other people's viewpoints on this. I was taught to bring out the motif when it appears. This doesn't mean shouting it out. The goal is to have it sing above the others.

Angelina I'm not crazy about the sound of a harpsichord myself. To my ears, all that plucking overpowers the tones.
_________________________
Best regards,

Deborah

Top
#1454567 - 06/11/10 10:38 AM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: gooddog]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4491
Loc: in the past
Skeletons at a party dancing in the dark...... that's what I associate it with haha
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#1454617 - 06/11/10 12:14 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: Pogorelich.]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17666
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich
Skeletons at a party dancing in the dark...... that's what I associate it with haha


... or as someone else said : "Skeletons (doing it - (this is a family forum, after all!)) on a tin roof."

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony

Top
#1454996 - 06/12/10 07:27 AM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: Pogorelich.]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7422
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich
Didn't Bach prefer the Clavichord to the harpsichord anyway?

(god do I hate harpsichord haha)


He may have personally liked playing the clavichord the most, but that doesn't mean he was writing with it in mind when composing any specific work, does it? After all, most clavichords are so quiet that they just don't work in public performance. Bach didn't write any clavichord concertos, after all.

Top
#1454997 - 06/12/10 07:34 AM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: Pogorelich.]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7422
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich
Why not. If you want no pedal and no dynamics why would you play it on piano anyway? You'd be better off with harpsichord and clavichord.


That may be true, but since I currently have neither unlimited funds for instrument purchases nor unlimited space in which to house them, I do these anachronistic things with my piano.

Top
#1455006 - 06/12/10 08:26 AM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: BruceD]
John_B Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/17/10
Posts: 621
Loc: Bristol, UK
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich
Skeletons at a party dancing in the dark...... that's what I associate it with haha


... or as someone else said : "Skeletons (doing it - (this is a family forum, after all!)) on a tin roof."

Regards,



The Beecham quote that I know is "The sound of a harsichord - two skeletons c*p*lating on a tin roof in a thunderstorm."

Top
#1455090 - 06/12/10 12:00 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: John_B]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19285
Loc: New York
I thought it was George Bernard Shaw......
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

Top
#1455128 - 06/12/10 01:25 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: gooddog]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2229
Loc: San Jose, CA
Originally Posted By: gooddog
I mentioned elsewhere that I recently had an opportunity to play Bach on an organ. My efforts to avoid the pedal, finger pedal and stick to the nuances in the score really paid off. Unlike on the piano, the sustained notes continued to play and sounded fantastic to my ears. Had I depended more on the pedal, I don't know if I would have been able to pull this off.


In a good hall, the piano can do the same thing. It's just not apparent to the performer.

Top
#1455138 - 06/12/10 01:38 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: wr]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4491
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich
Didn't Bach prefer the Clavichord to the harpsichord anyway?

(god do I hate harpsichord haha)


He may have personally liked playing the clavichord the most, but that doesn't mean he was writing with it in mind when composing any specific work, does it? After all, most clavichords are so quiet that they just don't work in public performance. Bach didn't write any clavichord concertos, after all.


Yes but music back then wasn't really "performed" (especially not like today), it was more just played for common friends. In which case the clavichord would really work.

How would you explain why he wrote "to be played with a cantabile sound" on his inventions? (was it the inventions.. or WTCs? Forgot) We all know the harpsichord does not do anything like that.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#1455158 - 06/12/10 02:13 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: Pogorelich.]
sandalholme Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 743
Loc: Dorset, UK
Bach wrote "most of all to achieve a cantabile manner of playing" in his 1723 edition of the Inventions and Sinfonias as part of his intentions in publishing the works. It is difficult to believe, knowing that Bach composed for harpsichord and clavichord, that he only meant this in reference to performance on a clavichord without making that specific.
It is perfectly possible to achieve cantabile with a harpsichord. I have done it for decades and if you listen to any half decent harpsichordist you will hear this.
Pianos and harpsichords make different sounds, as do oboes and clarinets etc.

Top
#1455167 - 06/12/10 02:24 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: sandalholme]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4491
Loc: in the past
How is it possible to achieve cantabile on a harpsichord? It's not.. You can't do dynamics on harpsichord, unless of course there's different keyboards of it.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#1455173 - 06/12/10 02:33 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: wr]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich
Didn't Bach prefer the Clavichord to the harpsichord anyway?

(god do I hate harpsichord haha)


He may have personally liked playing the clavichord the most, but that doesn't mean he was writing with it in mind when composing any specific work, does it? After all, most clavichords are so quiet that they just don't work in public performance. Bach didn't write any clavichord concertos, after all.


You're right, he wrote KEYBOARD concertos, thus meaning they're not relegated to the harpsichord.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1455174 - 06/12/10 02:36 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: Pogorelich.]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich
How is it possible to achieve cantabile on a harpsichord? It's not.. You can't do dynamics on harpsichord, unless of course there's different keyboards of it.


Well, it's certainly not the "cantabile" that we think of in regard to the piano, but it is possible in the way you shape a phrase and the way you articulate and the way you attend to the rise and fall of the line. It's a great deal more work to play the harpsichord (and early pianofortes) well than most think.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1455199 - 06/12/10 03:18 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: stores]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4491
Loc: in the past
How do you shape on a harpsichord?
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#1455210 - 06/12/10 03:46 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: Pogorelich.]
John_B Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/17/10
Posts: 621
Loc: Bristol, UK
Originally Posted By: AngelinaPogorelich

Yes but music back then wasn't really "performed" (especially not like today), it was more just played for common friends. In which case the clavichord would really work.


Whilst I am sure there was a lot of domestic music making (for which the clavichord would be ideal) I don't think it right to say there were no 'performances' for larger audiences. After all, in Leipzig, there were concerts at Zimmerman's Coffee House and other venues.


Edited by John_B (06/12/10 03:47 PM)

Top
#1455226 - 06/12/10 04:27 PM Re: Pedal and Bach [Re: John_B]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5271
Loc: Orange County, CA
For Bach, pedaling depends on the piece. For some faster pieces, I don't pedal at all. For some others with chords, I pedal generously, with half pedal or flutter pedal when necessary. The D Major Fugue from WTC-II, for example, would call for lots of pedaling.
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

Top
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
Download & Print Sheet Music Instantly
sheet music search
sheet music search

sheet music search
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
190 registered (accordeur, acortot, 36251, adanepst, 52 invisible), 1794 Guests and 56 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
74206 Members
42 Forums
153503 Topics
2249461 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
1952 Bechstein Grand Piano - family needs appraisal
by feigede
04/16/14 05:43 PM
Ruben Schoutrop - Nocturne Op. 55 No. 1 in F Minor
by Ruben1
04/16/14 05:14 PM
Question about monitor speakers with keyboard
by peabody
04/16/14 04:00 PM
Disklavier to replace digital piano?
by Big Cheese
04/16/14 03:42 PM
Happy Birthday TwoSnowflakes
by gooddog
04/16/14 02:23 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission