Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad) End Stage Fright
End Stage Fright
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3
Topic Options
#1454364 - 06/11/10 12:17 AM Re: Relax fingers during play... some advice? [Re: TimR]
photowriters Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/08
Posts: 180
Loc: Kansas City
Originally Posted By: TimR
I disagree with your statement that it works in golf. Rather, it works for you in golf. < ... > They do not work for me, and I've given them some extensive effort in a number of sports.

They should work for you as well.

Quote:
It is a matter of personal learning styles, and I've come to believe that these are hardwired and fixed.

I don't think so. I am an analytical learner, and I tend to over think the golf swing. I know why balls go where they do and what I've done wrong to make them go there. In the 15 years or so that I've been playing the game, I have not been able to make a stable, repeatable golf swing despite all my knowledge, analytical ability, and countless hours on the practice range. The difference was learning Inner Game techniques/skills of allowing me to make mistakes and locating the source of tension (lower back and hip girdle for me).

The Inner Game techniques/skills would not have worked unless I had spent time with mechanical practice and analyzing what I had done wrong. The mechanical drills and knowledge are necessary for learning the game, but the Inner Game released me to execute the swing without tension and/or doing things in steps.

Despite the Inner Game, I still have to be conscious of certain mechanical things like keeping my head as still as possible and dropping my right elbow to my side early in the swing. Likewise, a pianist must keep certain mechanical things in mind every time he/she plays, like time or posture.
_________________________
Regards,

Bob

Top
(ads P/S)
Petrof Pianos

piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1454376 - 06/11/10 12:40 AM Re: Relax fingers during play... some advice? [Re: photowriters]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Yeh, it is very Inner Game and I do have Skiing, Tennis and Music not that I'm consciously borrowing - if it's right, it's right. I find the body carries out your wishes. Consciousness' job is to constantly scan for unnecessary tensions. As an example:

To place the shoulders correctly I get students to roll the shoulder forward, up and back - always one at a time a la Esther Gokhale. Always they stick their neck out and tense their chest (6 pack). Whilst doing this routine consciousness should concentrate on stilling the neck and chest - the body will carry out the shoulder movement without you attending to it.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1454579 - 06/11/10 11:05 AM Re: Relax fingers during play... some advice? [Re: keyboardklutz]
TimR Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 2999
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Yeh, it is very Inner Game and I do have Skiing, Tennis and Music not that I'm consciously borrowing - if it's right, it's right.


Sorry, this is "one-size-fits-all" thinking.

Your body carries out your wishes.

These techniques work for some and fail miserably for others.
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#1454607 - 06/11/10 11:58 AM Re: Relax fingers during play... some advice? [Re: TimR]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: TimR
Your body carries out your wishes.

These techniques work for some and fail miserably for others.
Patience?
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1454707 - 06/11/10 03:09 PM Re: Relax fingers during play... some advice? [Re: TimR]
photowriters Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/08
Posts: 180
Loc: Kansas City
Originally Posted By: TimR
Sorry, this is "one-size-fits-all" thinking.

Your body carries out your wishes.

These techniques work for some and fail miserably for others.

There are two cases where Inner Game will never help improve an individual's performance in sports or music.
  • Person is already performing at his/her maximum tension free level.
  • Person keeps telling him/herself that it will not work, i.e., a continuous stream of negative thoughts.
In every other case, there should be some improvement . . . slight in some cases and massive in others.
_________________________
Regards,

Bob

Top
#1454715 - 06/11/10 03:26 PM Re: Relax fingers during play... some advice? [Re: photowriters]
TimR Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 2999
Loc: Virginia, USA
So you don't buy the idea of matching the person's learning style at all?
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#1454736 - 06/11/10 04:22 PM Re: Relax fingers during play... some advice? [Re: TimR]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Some people's learning style is really a teaching style. You can't teach yourself to ride a bicycle but you can learn to ride a bicycle.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1454738 - 06/11/10 04:30 PM Re: Relax fingers during play... some advice? [Re: TimR]
photowriters Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/08
Posts: 180
Loc: Kansas City
Originally Posted By: TimR
So you don't buy the idea of matching the person's learning style at all?

Everyone learns a bit differently from the next guy. The Inner Game has nothing to do with learning how to play music, golf, tennis, or any other complex physical skill. Its focus is on improving execution by eliminating negative, self defeating talk and the tension that negativity produces. I hate to keep referring to golf on a piano forum, but it is the most concrete example that I can find from my personal experience.

As I said in an earlier post, like you I am much more of an analytical learner than I am a feel learner, but feel or kinesthetics is an important part of my learning process, especially if what I am learning involves movement of some part of the body. Perhaps a couple stories/examples will help illustrate both what I have been trying to illustrate and how I view the role of the Inner Game.

When I was much younger, I flew single seat jets on and off aircraft carriers, a demanding task which required precise hand-to-eye coordination, and I was damn good at it. That task required both extensive formal knowledge of one's aircraft, how the ship functioned, and the basic dynamics of flight, but the execution was almost an autonomic response to sensory clues. Secondarily, from the time I was introduced to ballroom dancing in grade school I have been an excellent dancer.

So what? To do well in each activity requires accurate and rhythmic movement controlled by both the large and small muscles of the body. Enter from stage left the challenging and frustrating game of golf.

Golf also requires precise rhythmic movement of the body to score well. For 15 years I tried to improve and gain some consistancy. I took many lessons, attended week long intensive golf schools, and spent hours and hours on the practice tee and practice green, all to no avail. I could not lower my handicap below 36 no matter what I tried.

I only kept playing the game because I enjoyed playing with my wife who was a better golfer than I was and because of the occasional miracle shot. Normally, I chunked, missed, duck hooked, and banana sliced golf balls all over the course and into every available hazard. I knew I had the intelligence, physical skills, and coordination to become a good golfer, but could not deliver. I had studied the game from an academic standpoint until I literally wore out some of the books I purchased. How was it that my dancing partners would compliment me on how good of a dancer I was, and my fellow aviators would commend me for my flying skills on and off the ship, but I could not hit a golf ball the same way twice in a row? Believe me, I was frustrated beyond words.

I had learned golf and learned it well, but I could not execute. Several years ago I determined that a much of the problem was tension, but I did not have any idea of how to eliminate it. Practice swings on the tee were fluid and rhythmic. All too often they were followed by a swing that propelled the ball 100 years into the dense woods on the left, the large lake on the right, or almost up to the ladies tee 20 yards ahead of me.

The Inner Game did nothing more than release me of the tension so that I could do what I already knew how to do. The Inner Game did not teach me anything about golf as such. It did allow my body to use all of the knowledge that my analytical learning machine had stored between my ears.

Does that make it any clearer what I am talking about and why I say that the Inner Game tension management skills should work for everyone?


Edited by photowriters (06/11/10 04:35 PM)
_________________________
Regards,

Bob

Top
#1454744 - 06/11/10 04:45 PM Re: Relax fingers during play... some advice? [Re: photowriters]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Wow, a fighter pilot? I'm impressed!
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1454750 - 06/11/10 04:56 PM Re: Relax fingers during play... some advice? [Re: keyboardklutz]
photowriters Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/08
Posts: 180
Loc: Kansas City
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Wow, a fighter pilot? I'm impressed!

No I was not a fighter pilot. I was an attack pilot. I flew A-4 and A-7 aircraft. Our primary mission was to attack targets on the ground. The fighter jocks said I was a member of what they called the "Gravity Group."
_________________________
Regards,

Bob

Top
Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3

Moderator:  BB Player, casinitaly 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
Download & Print Sheet Music Instantly
sheet music search
sheet music search

sheet music search
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
66 registered (ando, Atrys, adanepst, 36251, BB Player, 12 invisible), 1125 Guests and 48 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
74198 Members
42 Forums
153492 Topics
2249209 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Tired Fingers
by adanepst
Today at 01:45 AM
Bechstein 7
by PhilipInChina
Today at 01:07 AM
Premier Piano of New York
by FenderJazzMan
Yesterday at 11:58 PM
Top selling self-taught pianists?
by Sand Tiger
Yesterday at 11:06 PM
Just got my MP11!
by Dan Clark
Yesterday at 10:18 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission