This is exactly the kind of derogatory baiting that Bill has put up with ad nauseum. Should not Emmery be banned as well? Or has this type of rhetoric not crossed the line, yet?

--Andy Strong

By his own actions and responses to the administration, Bremmer has brought this on himself in no uncertain terms.

Derogatory comments, while unfortunate, are not the same as slanderous comments that have no basis in fact and cannot be substantiated.

Interesting the note that last time this happened there was a pledge thread developed that the posting technicians of the day signed up to. Everyone agreed to continue, with respect and consideration open to all. In other words we all agreed to disagree on certain subjects that are inflammatory here.

Everyone included signed that thread with the exception of one person. Tell me who that was??

Well, Emmery, your style of writing in the forum is just as rude as anything you complain about. How come you're still around?

BDB, that's what I said, too… should probably have written 'leaving the "paging Jerry Groot" thread aside'

First of all Andy, "rhetoric" is not something bad, in and of itself, its simply a way to move an audience and communicate effectively. Its done by near everyone, everywhere. It is not something we get banned for here. Secondly, what I stated was a fact, if you buck the rules or challenge the administrators here to kick you, they may very well comply, (with my full endorsement I might add). Lastly, my comments were not derogatory baiting, I simply stated to Pppat I have no sympathy towards someone who has been diciplined for a transgression they have been warned about in the past.

Keep in mind that the number of views reflects those of us who click on some of these topics just to mark them as read. That was what I started to do with the EBVT topic once the people there began getting vicious after I said I did not like one of the samples.

Well it seems the moderator decided to send me an insulting PM instead of banning me, so I'm still here.

Emmery, I first thought you were kidding me but you're right I found such an edit. First time in 20 years I've encountered such [expletive deleted] practices.

Kees

I don't know Bill Bremmer. But dudes, this isn't a democracy. Want to get nuts? Create your own forum and your own rules.

Lots of people use public forums to vent and displace anger that should be directed elsewhere. I was/am guilty of this as well.

As far as moderators go, I don't think these guys get paid. And ... even if they were paid, the job really sucks.

The way I see it is, anyone who doesn't like the rules here can simply leave. Perhaps there should be another forum on Piano World called Piano Technicians Instruction. PW is not a school with instructors. The technicians forum should be where professional technicians can feel free to communicate with one another as colleagues about piano tuning and technical work. I don't think that it should be a place for self appointed instructors to teach beginners or Do It Yourselfers how to tune. For some, it seems to be a place where 'mutual feel good back patting' goes on between student and teacher. "You tell me I'm good and I'll tell you that you're doing great (whether you really are or not) and we can both feel good about what we do".

No one is saying that the person in question can no longer work with those who he is apparently helping to learn tuning.
Perhaps he can have his own blog or forum where the rules can be adjusted to fit the necessary style of communication.

Kees,

Since you seem to like quoting PM's on open forum, I'll quote my "insulting" reply to you for all to see, rather than leave it up to imagination. I said:

"You're a classy guy"

That was in response to you calling me stupid, and reiterating it in both PM's and open forum. I chose to ask you about your remarks in private rather than risk your embarrassment in public. Apparently you don't care.

If you wish to discuss how the forums are run, that's ok. If you wish to express displeasure, it's fine. But meanness and name calling and making innuendo about "insults" is not.

Yes, this is a warning, posted in the venue of your choice.

Ken

+1

Ken

After reading a few of your posts that included the pms you sent, I'd say you're pretty lucky you DIDN'T get banned as well. I've gotten a time out before and life didn't end (and it won't for Mr. Bremmer). Getting pissed off and slinging insults at the moderators will do nothing to bring your friend back, but will eventually get YOU a time out, if you're not careful. Frankly, I wouldn't blame Ken for giving you time off after talking to him the way you have. If you'd said the same to me you wouldn't be reading this now. Chill out...Mr. Bremmer, will return.

I just shared this at Pianist Corner, and wanted to share it here as well. I have other thoughts, which I will post later.

Andy,

What are you trying to accomplish by this?

Ken

Everyone should read "Behavior in the Technician Forum" There are rules on any forum and if you break the rules then you pay the penalty. If you don't like here then go to the Pianotech list.

I guess I am just putting down in words how I feel about what I perceive to be an injustice, based on my observations from my reading and my appreciation for the man. My emotions are running high right now, and I am trying to temper them while expressing them.

I also wanted my friends in Pianist Corner, who have been studying EBVT III in a thread that Patrick and I started there, to know that we would not be hearing from Bill for a while, and the reason for it. I was asked by someone in a PM why we hadn't heard from Bill, and I thought it would be polite to let people there know.

Nothing more than that.

Kind regards,

--Andy

No problem Andy, I understand. Everyone is entitled to their opinions AND emotions.

Ken

I didn't call you stupid, I called these (partly your) actions stupid.

You PM to me is obviously sarcastic. That means you mean the opposite of what you write. So you told me I'm a low-class kinda guy. I call that an insult.

For a moderator to get involved in fights like this is very inappropriate IMHO.

Kees

BDB, I will keep that in mind. Now, what would be another meter... the number of replies in the threads, perhaps? That would at least indicate participation, and not link clicking. Well, sort the threads by that order, and guess which one tops the list (apart from the already mentioned "paging J.G.")?

JBE, I have a problem with this quite desperate need to draw a line between pros and amateurs.

You see, members can flash titles or whatever, but fact is, I don't know squat about the quality of, for example, your tunings. The only thing I notice is that it seems to be quite urgent to many members, including yourself, to be considered a professional. To belong to the distinguished "us".

And, the funny thing is... the bigger this need, the lesser true hands-on stuff to back it up. As I recall of now, Gadzar and myself "has put our money where our mouths are" - provided samples just to prove that we ARE able to tune ascending 3rds/6ths. There should be no need for such things, but I guess we both got kind of irritated because of the constant questioning of our skills.

So, JBE, if you care to check out my posted recordings (including the 3rds/6ths inquisition), please do so. Is this the kind of student-level tuning you talk about, the kind of discussion and participation that you want to get rid of in this forum so that you and other self-named experts can run your high-quality board in peace? If so, you could easily show me what it should sound like. You, or any other high-level professional in this forum.

This is a challenge. If you don't take it up, you'd better leave room for members of this forum to just go on with what they do. Last I checked, nobody asked any of us to define what whe think the forum should be like. In fact, that would be to lessen the true power of this community. The sum of our opinions will always be stronger than my own, yours, the moderator's, or the founder's.

Please remember that nobody forces you to read the threads you don't like. This sudden guardianship of the forum - members defining how others should participate - is just plain silly, and actually not necessary at all.

Then some general points. To get moderator's ratings (like Ken's +1 flagging of your post) is a fascinating phenomenon. I have never participated in a forum where moderators try not to stay neutral. I agree with much of Kees' critique here, and I think the PW operators/moderators would benefit from checking out other forums running a less old-fashioned policy.

See, the PW forum is democratic in one sense, but then again it's not. It singles out certain trespassing, and let other go unpunished. It seems to run a quasi-democracy, something like "please speak out, as long as we like what you say".

Last I saw something like this was some 15 yrs ago, in the labour pains of internet communities. I'm quite baffled to encounter it here, in 2010. Every modern board runner - be it in politics, newspapers, church or whatever - knows that the true power lies in the freedom of speech and immediate interactivity. Those that do not grasp this lose respect and die a self-inflicted death.

The keyword is transparency. If there is moderation of a key participant in an active thread, this should be openly stated ASAP. My initial post in this thread should really never be needed. Decisions made in the dark are an insult to participating members, like Kees thinking that Bill didn't respond. Well, he didn't, and couldn't, and that should have been clearly stated by PW.

Lastly - as always - if I misunderstood something, or read too much into anybody's writing, please forgive me.

I still can't believe it. I'm all for following the rules, but I also like it when someone breaks a rule and reveals how wrongly we've been doing things.

This is obviously not a democracy, but why start a public forum if "other" views aren't tolerated?

I get the feeling some believe Bill got what was coming to him for his audacity for talking to amatuers.

Or he could have been suspended for making a scurrilous attack in a private message, as the moderators have said. If you do not believe he is capable of such a thing, you have not be reading his public messages long enough.

There are plenty of us professionals who talk to amateurs, despite the fact that we are often castigated by the amateurs when they do not like what we say.

"See, the PW forum is democratic in one sense, but then again it's not. It singles out certain trespassing, and let other go unpunished. It seems to run a quasi-democracy, something like "please speak out, as long as we like what you say".

It is Frank Baxter's property and he sets the rules. He is in it to attract advertisers and financial support. It is not a democracy.

I hope he's in it for a little more than that.

I believe he is in it for more than that, but for PW posters to ignore the advertising aspect is a mistake.

Re: numbers of views and posts...count up posters....maybe same 15 or so over and over and over....discussing recordings etc...the fighting over the original whats good and what isn't seems like it stopped a long time ago. I suspect most of the views are by the same people just getting updated...

... or he could have been suspended for secretly plotting to manufacture a device that sends out radio waves messing every ETD on earth up, cleverly adjusting them to produce EBVT III instead.

Point is, we will not know. And Bill can't defend himself here, so we have to go with the official version (as in interpreted by the moderators). I find it wildly amusing and sad at the same time, this moderation of a forum in a country that I deeply respect for it's stress of the importance of free speech and free flow of information. This more resembles the way things were ran across the border east from here up until some 20 years ago.




Yes, and I've always respected you for that. As I've said before, you've been most important to me learning how to tune the piano. I hope you don't feel that me disagreeing with you would take anything away from that, because that is not, and has never been, my intention.

I like different opinions, and I have no problem with people speaking their cause. What I have a problem with is when some people are restrained from doing so, and others are not. It's a little bit like playing football on a sloping field.

A big thanks to forum moderators everywhere... Imagine games without umpires, bankers without regulators, business without oversight... (oh, nevermind!)

It is these unsung heros that keep these places from being the "wild west"... (There are places like that, if that's what you prefer.)

If you want to see a humorous look at how we all fit into the genre of forum "warriors", take a look here...

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/index.htm

Ron Koval
chicagoland

15 people getting updated 3700+ times each? I bet the mouse re-sellers are the true winners here

True. But I do not worship at the feet of biased soccer referees either, I'm a very annoyed (as in loud) spectator during games like that.


Ron, I think you accidentally nailed it - this forum is actually just such a small Wild West town, with a sheriff keeping "his" town decent by a firm hand. If you don't like it, you can always leave. In tar and feathers, if that's what it'll have to come to.

Now, please don't go back to read my earlier post - I'd have a very hard time to make the connection between the Soviet Union and a western town, and make it plausible