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#1455421 - 06/12/10 09:10 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: pppat]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3847
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: pppat
Originally Posted By: BDB
Or he could have been suspended for making a scurrilous attack in a private message, as the moderators have said. [...]

... or he could have been suspended for secretly plotting to manufacture a device that sends out radio waves messing every ETD on earth up, cleverly adjusting them to produce EBVT III instead.

Point is, we will not know. And Bill can't defend himself here, so we have to go with the official version (as in interpreted by the moderators). I find it wildly amusing and sad at the same time, this moderation of a forum in a country that I deeply respect for it's stress of the importance of free speech and free flow of information. This more resembles the way things were ran across the border east from here up until some 20 years ago.



This goes to the heart of the matter for me.

Let's pretend that this is Frank's house, and he has asked us to take our shoes off before we enter. O.K. It's his house. But he has made his Piano World house a public forum, set up, presumably, for the free exchange of ideas, all things piano. It is a tremendous resource, for which I am truly grateful!

In early childhood education, there is a concept called, "the least restrictive environment." Meaning that children will thrive with wide boundaries and judicious intervention.

It is the intervention in this case that concerns me.

Originally Posted By: Ken Knapp
Frank Baxter, the owner of Piano World, did the actual banning.

Patrick, Bill is fortunate to have a friend such as you. But I would venture a guess that you've never been on the receiving end of Bill's sarcasm when he decides to go after you.

Nobody gets suspended on here for disagreeing with people. They do get suspended and sometimes banned for name calling and being mean to others.

The issue with Bill was discussed between Frank and the moderators before Bill was banned. About a year ago Bill was warned for the very same behavior. He chose to ignore the warning. That time he also got a month's suspension.

This time Bill was also warned because of his behavior towards another member. He once again chose to ignore the warning. So again he has received a one month suspension. In his response to the warning he even invited us to ban him from the forum.

Had Bill shown even a hint of being sorry about his treatment of another member, you all would be sitting here swapping tuning stories. Instead he decided he'd rather be suspended.

Bill is fortunate. Our policy is usually to permanently ban a person once they have received a warning, ignored it, and then been suspended. But Frank cut him some slack.

Patrick, thanks for your concern. Bill will be back. And none of this occurred without discussion of the matter between Frank Baxter and the moderators.

Ken



Being mean to people? Can you honestly read the history of posts regarding EBVT III, or anything else Bill has written, and say that he has not been provoked? Can you honestly say that Bill has not endured criticism from others verging on slander? There has been enough name calling and mean spirited barbs to go around, back and forth, for sure. From my reading of it, people dished it out, and Bill dished it back.

I am wondering what is the real reason for the ban. As Patrick has said, transparency is key. I am truly sorry to say that I do not accept the official version.

There are two sides to every story. Somewhere in between is the truth.

--Andy Strong


Edited by Cinnamonbear (06/12/10 09:12 PM)
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1455422 - 06/12/10 09:15 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: pppat]
Piano Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 400
Loc: Southern Ontario,Canada
I meant 15 people making 774 replies....I viewed the threat a couple hundred myself. I know there are perhaps a few more...but the same ones over and over making a post.
_________________________
Richard, the"Piano Guy"
Piano Moving Tuning & Repair
From London ON to Fort Erie ON

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#1455424 - 06/12/10 09:18 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Ralph]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3847
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Ralph
[...]
This is obviously not a democracy, but why start a public forum if "other" views aren't tolerated?
[...]


This is exactly what I'm wondering about.
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1455435 - 06/12/10 09:34 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Cinnamonbear]
Piano World Offline



Registered: 05/24/01
Posts: 5571
Loc: Parsonsfield, ME (orig. Nahant...
OK folks, time to get a grip.

This is a piano forum, not a discussion on brain surgery or solving the world's problems.
I gave Bill a warning, had he chosen to accept it, there would have been no time out.
Instead he chose to challenge my right to moderate my own forums, and to tell me how little I knew about running a forum.
Odd, because we seem to have done ok the past 10 or 12 years.

You're all welcome to your opinions, but I still own the forums, so you're right, in the end it isn't a true democracy.
You're here as guests, you pay nothing for the privilege, and that's as it should be. However, I have a few rules I expect to be honored, those who chose not to honor them can expect some type of reaction. Usually it's a warning first, as this was, but if they continue, or send me notes essentially saying they don't care about my rules, and that I must not know what I'm doing, they can expect at a minimum a time out.

And if they want to continue down this road, yes they will be banned, regardless of how "knowledgeable" they are.

By the way, this isn't Bill's first time out, for the very same type of issues.
He had a month off last year, from another moderator.

As far as "views" being tolerated, views are tolerated, as evidenced by over 1.4 million posts. However insults and taunts are not.

But you're almost right Ralph & Cinnamonbear... Why indeed would I start a public forum if it means being insulted and questioned by the very guests I've invited to use my forums? Because I expect the majority of our members will actually act like adults.
Because for the most part our members have the decency to treat each other with respect, because people actually do sometimes learn a thing or two here, and because most of the time, it's a fun place.
_________________________
- Frank B.
Founder / Host
www.PianoWorld.com
www.PianoSupplies.com
Find Us On:
Facebook.com/PianoWorldDotCom
Twitter.com/PianoWorld
www.youtube.com/PianoWorldDotCom
Skype: PianoWorldDotCom
Estonia L-190, Yamaha P-80, Hammond XK-3, Hammond A-100, Estey 1895 Pump Organ
-------------------------
It's Fun To Play the Piano ... PLEASE Pass It On!
And please invite everyone you know to join our piano forums!
Coming to Maine? We're in Parsonsfield (southwest) let's get together!


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#1455437 - 06/12/10 09:40 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: DoelKees]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
[...]
For a moderator to get involved in fights like this is very inappropriate IMHO.

Kees


So is posting PM's in public. If you have a concern about a moderator's conduct, it is advisable to contact the administrator and leave it at that.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1455441 - 06/12/10 09:48 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Horowitzian]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
[...]
For a moderator to get involved in fights like this is very inappropriate IMHO.

Kees


So is posting PM's in public. If you have a concern about a moderator's conduct, it is advisable to contact the administrator and leave it at that.


H,

Kees did not post any other PM in public than the one he himself wrote in the start. Then Ken Knapp opened the door on that. Or did I miss something?
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1455448 - 06/12/10 09:56 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: pppat]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: pppat
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
[...]
For a moderator to get involved in fights like this is very inappropriate IMHO.

Kees


So is posting PM's in public. If you have a concern about a moderator's conduct, it is advisable to contact the administrator and leave it at that.


H,

Kees did not post any other PM in public than the one he himself wrote in the start. Then Ken Knapp opened the door on that. Or did I miss something?


There's a good reason why they are called PRIVATE messages. I wouldn't consider posting even one I wrote myself.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1455456 - 06/12/10 10:05 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Cinnamonbear]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1603
Loc: Mexico City
The only two reasons for me to post in PW are:

1. to learn from people who knows more than I in some aspects of piano technology.

2. To teach someone else something they don't know.

Unfortunately, in PW there are only a few people who are enough openminded to admit they can learn something from me. And there are even less people able to teach me something. Not that they don't know enough but they don't want to share their knowledge.

Bill Bremmer is one of those guys with an openmind ready to accept new (to him) concepts and well disposed to share all of his knowledge for free!

You can google-search "piano tuning" and you'll find hundreds of sites who claim they'll teach you to tune a piano in a few lessons for a not so few dollars.

All I have received from Bill was intended to make me a better piano technician, to improve my aural and ETD tuning skills. And he's banned from PW!

At the same time, all I have received from other posters in PW, is criticism, negativeness, ridicule and mockery. Why are these guys not banned? I can give their names and refer to the posts where I was subject of ridicule and mockery, if anyone is interested (I mean moderators that can be interested by such info). I don't think it necessary as everyone knows who they are.

But, fortunately, PW is not the only one piano forum where we can express our selves.

For my decision, I am banning my self out of PW until Bill Bremmer happens to show his face here on again.

Good By!

Enjoy!


Edited by Gadzar (06/12/10 10:35 PM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1455488 - 06/12/10 10:55 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Horowitzian]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1653
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
[...]
For a moderator to get involved in fights like this is very inappropriate IMHO.

Kees


So is posting PM's in public. If you have a concern about a moderator's conduct, it is advisable to contact the administrator and leave it at that.


Well, I have a different opinion, na na na-nA na!

I must confess though that I didn't realize until pointed out to me that the Bill Bremmer postings I've enjoyed were actually modified and censored versions of some unknown original.

So I admit that there is the theoretical possibility that, where I ever to see the unedited posts (perhaps a privilege that could be obtained for a small fee, or in a separate Sub Forum accessible for 18+ adults only), I would change my mind and apologize to our sensitive moderator.

Kees

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#1455489 - 06/12/10 10:56 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Piano World]
Ralph Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/01
Posts: 1298
Loc: Delaware (slower/lower)
Originally Posted By: Piano World

This is a piano forum, not a discussion on brain surgery or solving the world's problems.



I respectfully disagree. I think Pianoworld is a model for solving the worlds problems which start with open discourse without fear of reprisal. That's why I think the Socialist paty, Nazi party, liberal and conservatives alike should have the same right to express their views. It's up to the rest of us to decide which we like, but the right to express those views must remain intact. The men who wrote the US constitution were also bound to live by it. They did not have the right to censor even though they authored it. Even the creator has to live by the rules that He established. That's why we have free will.

People who ride the razor blade of life are the ones who affect change, not those in the middle.

Originally Posted By: Piano World


But you're almost right Ralph & Cinnamonbear...


That's close enough for government work. It's better than being mostly wrong, which I have to admit has happened once or twice.
_________________________
Do or do not. There is no try.

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#1455493 - 06/12/10 11:27 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Ralph]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Ralph
Originally Posted By: Piano World

This is a piano forum, not a discussion on brain surgery or solving the world's problems.



I respectfully disagree. I think Pianoworld is a model for solving the worlds problems which start with open discourse without fear of reprisal. That's why I think the Socialist paty, Nazi party, liberal and conservatives alike should have the same right to express their views. It's up to the rest of us to decide which we like, but the right to express those views must remain intact. The men who wrote the US constitution were also bound to live by it. They did not have the right to censor even though they authored it. Even the creator has to live by the rules that He established. That's why we have free will.

People who ride the razor blade of life are the ones who affect change, not those in the middle.

Originally Posted By: Piano World


But you're almost right Ralph & Cinnamonbear...


That's close enough for government work. It's better than being mostly wrong, which I have to admit has happened once or twice.


But this isn't about censorship at all. The reasons he got a time out were clearly defined..."flouting the board rules, being outright rude to some members, or sending me a PM that I felt was inappropriate."
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1455506 - 06/12/10 11:54 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: DoelKees]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
[...]

Well, I have a different opinion, na na na-nA na!


Regardless of the motives, posting any part of a private correspondence in public is a major breach of netiquette.

Quote:
I must confess though that I didn't realize until pointed out to me that the Bill Bremmer postings I've enjoyed were actually modified and censored versions of some unknown original.

So I admit that there is the theoretical possibility that, where I ever to see the unedited posts (perhaps a privilege that could be obtained for a small fee, or in a separate Sub Forum accessible for 18+ adults only), I would change my mind and apologize to our sensitive moderator.

Kees


I always read Mr. Bremmer's posts when I see them because he almost always has something interesting or informative to say. It was only rarely that I saw a moderator edit, and I'll be the first to admit to having a few of those myself! laugh

I'm not prepared to say what Mr. Bremmer did to be temp banned. It seems the posts in question have been expunged from the database—at least the publicly viewable part of it—as I could find no remotely objectionable content while browsing Mr. Bremmer's most recent posting history. So, (and this is directed at Frank) what exactly did he do?
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1455517 - 06/13/10 12:22 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: stores]
Ralph Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/01
Posts: 1298
Loc: Delaware (slower/lower)
He probably was, but we'll never really know for sure. I haven't read all his posts and certainly have no knowledge of his PM's. It's not a completely transparent system, and maybe that's the best way, I really don't know.

I think some people's shock over Bill's time out has to do with suspicion that it was an act of revenge or censorship on the part of the moderators simply because Bill rubbed somebody the wrong way. Everybody has to follow the rules, but especially the people in charge. That goes for PW and everything else including CEO's of banks, government and law enforcement. So you see, even something as insignificant as an internet piano forum has to follow the same model for success as solving all the world's problems.

Well temperament = distributing iniquities to a select few.
Equal temerament = distributing iniquities equally to all.

Which is best? Maybe Bill got censored for subliminally relaying a political message. Maybe Bill actually did break the rules and got what was coming to him. I will say I'm sorry to see him go and hope he comes back. He initiated a lot of good thought by eveyone.
_________________________
Do or do not. There is no try.

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#1455519 - 06/13/10 12:25 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: pppat]
JBE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 377
Loc: USA
I don't think there is anything wrong with those that know more sharing and helping those that don't know as much, but when it comes down to being so attached to one individual that people want to flip out or commit suicide because that person is going to be out for a month....it seems slightly hysterical to me.

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#1455521 - 06/13/10 12:28 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Ralph]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3847
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Ralph
[...]
I get the feeling some believe Bill got what was coming to him for his audacity for talking to amatuers.


I think it's worse than that. I think some feel threatened by EBVT III. And, perhaps objectivity in tuning assessment. That's what I get from reading past posts, anyway...

--Andy
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

Top
#1455526 - 06/13/10 01:05 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Cinnamonbear]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1653
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted By: Ralph
[...]
I get the feeling some believe Bill got what was coming to him for his audacity for talking to amatuers.


I think it's worse than that. I think some feel threatened by EBVT III. And, perhaps objectivity in tuning assessment. That's what I get from reading past posts, anyway...

--Andy


So maybe this is just the continuation of the centuries old battle of the temperaments. The ET establishment thought they were like the Roman empire for a century now, but the Bremmerians are at the gate. smile

Kees

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#1455528 - 06/13/10 01:08 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: DoelKees]
Michael Darnton Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 243
Loc: Chicago
It doesn't look good when moderators throw hissy fits every time someone rubs them the wrong way. I participate in a number of forums, and I have moderated a popular one as well, and this is the only one where people get banned regularly. Some of the people running this thing need to grow up and get thicker skins.

Let's be honest here, moderators: when the issue becomes something said in a private e-mail to you, it's not about the forum anymore, it's become personal. You have no more right to bring your personal issues here than anyone else. Deal with them in private, but don't punish the rest of us because you can't take the heat. The most passionate people are the ones who bring the most to the table, and sometimes they can get wound up, particularly when confronted with blatant idiocy. If you have a problem with them, it's your problem. If I don't like them, I can stop reading them: I don't need you to protect me.


Edited by Michael Darnton (06/13/10 01:58 AM)
_________________________
http://darntonviolins.com and http://darntonhersh.com

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#1455531 - 06/13/10 01:44 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Michael Darnton]
Dale Fox Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 1055
Loc: Nor California Sacramento area
Ken,

Perhaps most of those offering opinions at this time didn't get exposed to the true character of the offending posts as they were edited rather quickly. Or perhaps those offering opinions were not the target of the offending posts and just enjoy a good blood sport as long as they are not the ones with the target on their chest. I, for one, applaud your efforts to keep PW a place where people are not allowed to use ad hominum.

Maybe some just don't understand the nature of the offense as in today's world a free-for-all is getting to be the 'norm'.
_________________________
Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding

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#1455535 - 06/13/10 01:51 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Dale Fox]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
It is peculiar someone getting banned for PM's. Surely anyone, including moderators, can just refuse to open them?
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1455538 - 06/13/10 01:57 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Michael Darnton]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
It is peculiar someone getting banned for PM's. Surely anyone, including moderators, can just refuse to open them?


Wouldn't be the first time.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1455543 - 06/13/10 02:05 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Horowitzian]
Michael Darnton Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 243
Loc: Chicago
Dale, I'm conveniently uninformed about the missing messages, but I will say that there's been one particular yappy little dog nipping at Bill's heels saying that the ET tuning that's good enough for his soccer moms and church pianists should be good enough for anyone, and if Bill finally decided to kick him in the teeth, good for him. The little dog is not banned, I notice.
_________________________
http://darntonviolins.com and http://darntonhersh.com

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#1455547 - 06/13/10 02:16 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Cinnamonbear]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21292
Loc: Oakland
The only reason I feel threatened by any of this EBVD stuff is that it seems to turn anyone who tries it into a raging paranoid! Must be the electrical charge in their underwear!
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1455552 - 06/13/10 02:38 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: BDB]
Sam Casey Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1135
Loc: SW Missouri
Tempest in a teapot.

Bill knew what he was doing and suffers the consequences. End of story.

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#1455558 - 06/13/10 03:22 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Sam Casey]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: Sam Casey
Tempest in a teapot.
Not when an original thinker may have been mistreated.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1455569 - 06/13/10 05:06 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Cinnamonbear]
EdmontonPianoTuner Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 7
Loc: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Dear Frank:
Yes this site is your private property.
If it were not for your loyal users your site would be nothing.
Bill Bremmer IS one of your loyal users, and I for one enjoy his posts, and enjoy all the controversy surrounding them. If you wish to profiteer from the expertise offered from this forum then you should allow for some free speech. As long as Mr. Bremmer is not supporting genocide, his posts should be unmoderated and permitted. I would be tremendously offended if my post appeared in an edited fashion.
Besides a little excitement never hurt anybody......
sticks and stones folks...
_________________________
Joshua Switzer
The Edmonton Piano Tuner
Alberta Canada
www.edmontonpianotuning.ca[url]

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#1455601 - 06/13/10 08:34 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: keyboardklutz]
Ken Knapp Offline



Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 2207
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
It is peculiar someone getting banned for PM's. Surely anyone, including moderators, can just refuse to open them?


No, we have to read them. Especially when it's a response to a warning - as it was in this case.

Ken
_________________________
Ken

Piano Organ Depot
http://www.pianoorgandepot.com
Hammond Organ Technician
http://www.tonewheeltech.com
Vice President - MITA, International
http://www.mitatechs.org

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#1455605 - 06/13/10 08:52 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: EdmontonPianoTuner]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: EdmontonPianoTuner
Dear Frank:
Yes this site is your private property.



If you readily admit this, then, how can one disapprove of any action taken by said owner? If I were to traipse into your yard with a group of people, by your logic, you could ask no one to leave regardless of their actions, be it to your liking, or not. Let's say you informed everyone in your yard that, "there will be no access to the southwestern corner of the yard" (notice you didn't say "please" which would make said statement an admonition, but rather you said, "there will be none", which infers a rule). Some, however, don't much care about your "rule" and make their way to said southwestern corner and plant themselves there. Now then, what do you do? You didn't ASK them not to venture there...you TOLD them not to. How many times must you tell them to remove themselves from the corner before you decide you don't want these people in your yard any longer? You shouldn't worry about it at all though should you? After all you're restricting their freedom right? I mean the reasons you had for not wanting them there to begin with are simply your own, and after all, it's ONLY your private property. Get a grip man...we'll wander through every corner of your yard whether you like it, or not.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1455610 - 06/13/10 09:05 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: stores]
Ken Knapp Offline



Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 2207
Loc: Pennsylvania
Stores,

You're right. And you use a good illustration - it is private property and as such it will be run according to the desire of the owner. It would be WONDERFUL if everyone agreed about that, but hey, you put 100 people in a room and you will end up with at least 75 different opinions! smile

Bill will have access to the forums on 07-08-2010 23:19.

Ken


Edited by Ken Knapp (06/13/10 09:07 AM)
_________________________
Ken

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#1455613 - 06/13/10 09:16 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Ken Knapp]
Chopinist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/02/10
Posts: 162
It's déjà vu all over again!

There was a big tumult here last January when a respected and knowledgeable member who posted primarily in the Pianist Corner (over 6,000 posts in the course of a few years' time) was permanently banned—ostensibly for cursing a moderator in a private message after the member was threatened with suspension for something he did not do.

"Rules" are, without question, selectively and arbitrarily enforced. The way they are interpreted is completely subjective, and sometimes they get pulled out of thin air. For example, the member I mentioned was accused of repeatedly "derailing" threads. Which rule did that break? What does that even mean, exactly?

It means that other people are routinely granted license here to express their ideas, thoughts and opinions, but this poster was not. However many supportive friends he had here, and however valuable the contributions he had made, he rubbed a few people the wrong way—including Baxter and at least one moderator. In the end, public and private apologies to Baxter and to the moderator who had suffered the retaliatory insult in private for targeting this member for harassment—that's what a false accusation and threat is—were ignored completely.

All of this has happened before, and it will happen again. A few other people invariably claim they'll leave in retaliation and solidarity, but very few would choose to put principles before the fun they have here. Life goes on in any case—and goes on particularly well for the people who express themselves just as Baxter and his minions wish.

It's not about "rules" at all, because it doesn't have to be. That's just smoke and mirrors to make people feel better about being in a fiefdom instead of a democracy. It's about whether the powers that be like you or not.
_________________________
"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent." —Wittgenstein

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#1455616 - 06/13/10 09:31 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Chopinist]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Chopinist

It's not about "rules" at all, because it doesn't have to be. That's just smoke and mirrors to make people feel better about being in a fiefdom instead of a democracy. It's about whether the powers that be like you or not.


Of course it's about rules. If there weren't any and it wasn't about such, then we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Break the rules one too many times and you really can't argue with the ensuing results.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
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