Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer

This goes to the heart of the matter for me.

Let's pretend that this is Frank's house, and he has asked us to take our shoes off before we enter. O.K. It's his house. But he has made his Piano World house a public forum, set up, presumably, for the free exchange of ideas, all things piano. It is a tremendous resource, for which I am truly grateful!

In early childhood education, there is a concept called, "the least restrictive environment." Meaning that children will thrive with wide boundaries and judicious intervention.

It is the intervention in this case that concerns me.



Being mean to people? Can you honestly read the history of posts regarding EBVT III, or anything else Bill has written, and say that he has not been provoked? Can you honestly say that Bill has not endured criticism from others verging on slander? There has been enough name calling and mean spirited barbs to go around, back and forth, for sure. From my reading of it, people dished it out, and Bill dished it back.

I am wondering what is the real reason for the ban. As Patrick has said, transparency is key. I am truly sorry to say that I do not accept the official version.

There are two sides to every story. Somewhere in between is the truth.

--Andy Strong

I meant 15 people making 774 replies....I viewed the threat a couple hundred myself. I know there are perhaps a few more...but the same ones over and over making a post.

This is exactly what I'm wondering about.

OK folks, time to get a grip.

This is a piano forum, not a discussion on brain surgery or solving the world's problems.
I gave Bill a warning, had he chosen to accept it, there would have been no time out.
Instead he chose to challenge my right to moderate my own forums, and to tell me how little I knew about running a forum.
Odd, because we seem to have done ok the past 10 or 12 years.

You're all welcome to your opinions, but I still own the forums, so you're right, in the end it isn't a true democracy.
You're here as guests, you pay nothing for the privilege, and that's as it should be. However, I have a few rules I expect to be honored, those who chose not to honor them can expect some type of reaction. Usually it's a warning first, as this was, but if they continue, or send me notes essentially saying they don't care about my rules, and that I must not know what I'm doing, they can expect at a minimum a time out.

And if they want to continue down this road, yes they will be banned, regardless of how "knowledgeable" they are.

By the way, this isn't Bill's first time out, for the very same type of issues.
He had a month off last year, from another moderator.

As far as "views" being tolerated, views are tolerated, as evidenced by over 1.4 million posts. However insults and taunts are not.

But you're almost right Ralph & Cinnamonbear... Why indeed would I start a public forum if it means being insulted and questioned by the very guests I've invited to use my forums? Because I expect the majority of our members will actually act like adults.
Because for the most part our members have the decency to treat each other with respect, because people actually do sometimes learn a thing or two here, and because most of the time, it's a fun place.

So is posting PM's in public. If you have a concern about a moderator's conduct, it is advisable to contact the administrator and leave it at that.

H,

Kees did not post any other PM in public than the one he himself wrote in the start. Then Ken Knapp opened the door on that. Or did I miss something?

There's a good reason why they are called PRIVATE messages. I wouldn't consider posting even one I wrote myself.

The only two reasons for me to post in PW are:

1. to learn from people who knows more than I in some aspects of piano technology.

2. To teach someone else something they don't know.

Unfortunately, in PW there are only a few people who are enough openminded to admit they can learn something from me. And there are even less people able to teach me something. Not that they don't know enough but they don't want to share their knowledge.

Bill Bremmer is one of those guys with an openmind ready to accept new (to him) concepts and well disposed to share all of his knowledge for free!

You can google-search "piano tuning" and you'll find hundreds of sites who claim they'll teach you to tune a piano in a few lessons for a not so few dollars.

All I have received from Bill was intended to make me a better piano technician, to improve my aural and ETD tuning skills. And he's banned from PW!

At the same time, all I have received from other posters in PW, is criticism, negativeness, ridicule and mockery. Why are these guys not banned? I can give their names and refer to the posts where I was subject of ridicule and mockery, if anyone is interested (I mean moderators that can be interested by such info). I don't think it necessary as everyone knows who they are.

But, fortunately, PW is not the only one piano forum where we can express our selves.

For my decision, I am banning my self out of PW until Bill Bremmer happens to show his face here on again.

Good By!

Enjoy!

Well, I have a different opinion, na na na-nA na!

I must confess though that I didn't realize until pointed out to me that the Bill Bremmer postings I've enjoyed were actually modified and censored versions of some unknown original.

So I admit that there is the theoretical possibility that, where I ever to see the unedited posts (perhaps a privilege that could be obtained for a small fee, or in a separate Sub Forum accessible for 18+ adults only), I would change my mind and apologize to our sensitive moderator.

Kees

I respectfully disagree. I think Pianoworld is a model for solving the worlds problems which start with open discourse without fear of reprisal. That's why I think the Socialist paty, Nazi party, liberal and conservatives alike should have the same right to express their views. It's up to the rest of us to decide which we like, but the right to express those views must remain intact. The men who wrote the US constitution were also bound to live by it. They did not have the right to censor even though they authored it. Even the creator has to live by the rules that He established. That's why we have free will.

People who ride the razor blade of life are the ones who affect change, not those in the middle.



That's close enough for government work. It's better than being mostly wrong, which I have to admit has happened once or twice.

But this isn't about censorship at all. The reasons he got a time out were clearly defined..."flouting the board rules, being outright rude to some members, or sending me a PM that I felt was inappropriate."

Regardless of the motives, posting any part of a private correspondence in public is a major breach of netiquette.



I always read Mr. Bremmer's posts when I see them because he almost always has something interesting or informative to say. It was only rarely that I saw a moderator edit, and I'll be the first to admit to having a few of those myself!

I'm not prepared to say what Mr. Bremmer did to be temp banned. It seems the posts in question have been expunged from the database—at least the publicly viewable part of it—as I could find no remotely objectionable content while browsing Mr. Bremmer's most recent posting history. So, (and this is directed at Frank) what exactly did he do?

He probably was, but we'll never really know for sure. I haven't read all his posts and certainly have no knowledge of his PM's. It's not a completely transparent system, and maybe that's the best way, I really don't know.

I think some people's shock over Bill's time out has to do with suspicion that it was an act of revenge or censorship on the part of the moderators simply because Bill rubbed somebody the wrong way. Everybody has to follow the rules, but especially the people in charge. That goes for PW and everything else including CEO's of banks, government and law enforcement. So you see, even something as insignificant as an internet piano forum has to follow the same model for success as solving all the world's problems.

Well temperament = distributing iniquities to a select few.
Equal temerament = distributing iniquities equally to all.

Which is best? Maybe Bill got censored for subliminally relaying a political message. Maybe Bill actually did break the rules and got what was coming to him. I will say I'm sorry to see him go and hope he comes back. He initiated a lot of good thought by eveyone.

I don't think there is anything wrong with those that know more sharing and helping those that don't know as much, but when it comes down to being so attached to one individual that people want to flip out or commit suicide because that person is going to be out for a month....it seems slightly hysterical to me.

I think it's worse than that. I think some feel threatened by EBVT III. And, perhaps objectivity in tuning assessment. That's what I get from reading past posts, anyway...

--Andy

So maybe this is just the continuation of the centuries old battle of the temperaments. The ET establishment thought they were like the Roman empire for a century now, but the Bremmerians are at the gate.

Kees

It doesn't look good when moderators throw hissy fits every time someone rubs them the wrong way. I participate in a number of forums, and I have moderated a popular one as well, and this is the only one where people get banned regularly. Some of the people running this thing need to grow up and get thicker skins.

Let's be honest here, moderators: when the issue becomes something said in a private e-mail to you, it's not about the forum anymore, it's become personal. You have no more right to bring your personal issues here than anyone else. Deal with them in private, but don't punish the rest of us because you can't take the heat. The most passionate people are the ones who bring the most to the table, and sometimes they can get wound up, particularly when confronted with blatant idiocy. If you have a problem with them, it's your problem. If I don't like them, I can stop reading them: I don't need you to protect me.

Ken,

Perhaps most of those offering opinions at this time didn't get exposed to the true character of the offending posts as they were edited rather quickly. Or perhaps those offering opinions were not the target of the offending posts and just enjoy a good blood sport as long as they are not the ones with the target on their chest. I, for one, applaud your efforts to keep PW a place where people are not allowed to use ad hominum.

Maybe some just don't understand the nature of the offense as in today's world a free-for-all is getting to be the 'norm'.

It is peculiar someone getting banned for PM's. Surely anyone, including moderators, can just refuse to open them?

Wouldn't be the first time.