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#1455617 - 06/13/10 09:33 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: stores]
Chopinist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/02/10
Posts: 162
It's about rules and more. Perhaps you haven't been here long enough to know that.
_________________________
"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent." —Wittgenstein

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#1455625 - 06/13/10 10:06 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Chopinist]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
That is exactly right....it is all about the rules. I used to be a part owner of a nightclub. We had rules. You come into my lounge and act like an idiot and you found yourself escorted to the door.

Same here. This is Frank’s lounge. You are welcome to come and voice your opinion; act up and insult Frank’s other guests and you will be shown the door.

I have only been here for a little over 2 years. When others have been banned from this forum or emotions have broken through to the surface in discussion (or argument whichever way you would like to state it) I have witnessed the owner and the moderators take some tremendous shots; some of those shots have come from me too.

But through it all they have remained steadfast at their responsibilities; one has to realize the mental and emotional toll this must take. Who among us would like to take that on for free every day and night as well as the usual things we must do daily to scratch a living from the dry earth.

I would not have the temperament for such a responsibility. A smart man knows his limitations......

I followed that thread about sotto voce. If I asked a guest in my club to shape up and they did not, then they were out for good.

There is no such thing as free speech unless you own a newspaper. Then you can print whatever nonsense you like.

This is not a public forum. This is a privately owned forum that happens to serve the public. Anyone is welcome to join AND FOLLOW THE RULES.

Difficulty understanding that anyone?
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1455628 - 06/13/10 10:09 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Ken Knapp]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: Ken Knapp
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
It is peculiar someone getting banned for PM's. Surely anyone, including moderators, can just refuse to open them?


No, we have to read them. Especially when it's a response to a warning - as it was in this case.

Ken
Hey, I ain't gonna teach no one to suck no eggs but surely if you get a surly PM you PM back - I won't be opening any more of your PM's? End of story? It's not as if a poster gets to mount (and therefore needs to mount) a defense before being banned.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1455629 - 06/13/10 10:09 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Chopinist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/02/10
Posts: 162
It's about "rules" that can be twisted or invented as the powers that be see fit, and it's about rules that are selectively and arbitrarily invoked.

Don't pretend it's objective. (And going into someone's private lounge and acting "like an idiot" is not an apt comparison; this is about expulsion for any reason—or for no reason.)
_________________________
"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent." —Wittgenstein

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#1455630 - 06/13/10 10:10 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Chopinist]
Dale Fox Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 1054
Loc: Nor California Sacramento area
You registered on June 2, 2010. Eleven days ago isn't very long. Does that give you enough experience to make such a forceful judgment?
_________________________
Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding

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#1455633 - 06/13/10 10:14 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Dale Fox]
Chopinist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/02/10
Posts: 162
As Wittgenstein said, "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent."

I know whereof I speak.
_________________________
"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent." —Wittgenstein

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#1455637 - 06/13/10 10:27 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Chopinist]
eweiss Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Beautiful San Diego, CA
Just a thought but if those complaining about the 'rules' were to open their own forums, they may begin to see the burdens and responsibiliies of running a forum as big as this one.

As I said before, some use public forums to vent and displace anger that should be directed elsewhere.

On that I speak from experience.
_________________________
Play New Age Piano
http://www.quiescencemusic.com

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#1455639 - 06/13/10 10:37 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: eweiss]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Just an idle thought, but the 'powers that be' need not be concerned - these threads always degenerate. I think because logic, like a sense of rhythm, picks and chooses its cohabitees.

Me experienced too!
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1455649 - 06/13/10 11:00 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: keyboardklutz]
Ralph Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/01
Posts: 1293
Loc: Delaware (slower/lower)
So, inadvertently Bill has started another most interesting thread in PW. Seems he does (huh, did) that alot.

Maybe the moderators should select a member every month and ban them so we can start a good thread about it.
_________________________
Do or do not. There is no try.

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#1455650 - 06/13/10 11:01 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Piano World]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3724
Loc: Rockford, IL
I think, overall, this is an issue that falls into the category of "first understand, then seek to be understood."

I would like to relate a pattern that I have observed in many discussion threads on PW. To paint the picture, I would like to use my recent thread in Pianist Corner, "Beethoven Improved," as an allegory or analogy.

I riffed some Beethoven, and shared a recording of it. People said, "You can't do that!" Some people said, "You can't do that, you shouldn't do that, and I'm not even going to listen to it!" I said, "Here's what I was trying to do. Here are my artistic reasons. Here are some historical reasons why I felt free to do it." Most people still said, "Who do you think you are? Messing with Beethoven!" I said, "Please, try to understand what I've done." Some people said, "Bah. You are a nobody!" If there were a lot at stake in what I did, I may have gotten upset that people weren't taking me seriously, and allowed myself to be pulled into a downward spiral of insults and name-calling. But, there is little at stake in what I did to Beethoven. And, Beethoven will not be hurt by what I did.

On the other hand, there is much at stake at what Bill has offered in EBVT III. It is a legitimate and beautiful temperament, born from historical precedent and refined with sound practice. But, the pattern of discussion held "true to forum."

Bill said, "I've done something! It's important! I want to share it with you." People said, "You can't do that!" Bill said, "But I did do it. Look, here's what I did. Can you appreciate it?" They said, "It can't be done! If you did that it would sound terrible!" Bill said, "No, no! I know the numbers don't add up to your way of thinking, but it really works. Plus, there is historical precedent for what I've done. See? Here it is!" People said, "You're a kook!" Bill said, "I really want to be understood here. This is exciting! I'm not a kook, and I have credentials. Here they are..." People said, "Take your credintials and your kooky ideas and, well, you know what!" Then, when it became possible to share recordings of this wonderful new idea, Bill said, "See? I told you it wasn't kooky!" Some people listened and said, "Wow! You're right! I didn't think it was possible, especially with the way you described it. But I was wrong!" Some people said, "Bah! It's crap." Some people said, "I don't have to listen. It's too kooky to even consider."

All of this happened with quite a bit of invective. If you keep banging the same dissonant chord, and you bang it louder and louder, well, it gets really unpleasant.

I give Bill credit for sticking to his guns, both about the innovation in the temperament and about his credentials. They are both important. They are both germane. And, I suppose because Bill has a backbone, they both got him banned.

First understand, then seek to be understood. There are two sides to every story, and somewhere inbetween is the truth.

--Andy
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1455656 - 06/13/10 11:14 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Cinnamonbear]
Ralph Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/01
Posts: 1293
Loc: Delaware (slower/lower)
I saw your thread about improving Beethoven. I knew immediately the reactions to your original post would be the meat of that thread, and they were. It's amazing to me how emotionally and sometimes violently people react when ANY of there preconceived ideas are challenged.
_________________________
Do or do not. There is no try.

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#1455663 - 06/13/10 11:23 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Ralph]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3724
Loc: Rockford, IL
Exactly. Thank you, Ralph.
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1455676 - 06/13/10 11:41 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Cinnamonbear]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
I think, overall, this is an issue that falls into the category of "first understand, then seek to be understood."

I would like to relate a pattern that I have observed in many discussion threads on PW. To paint the picture, I would like to use my recent thread in Pianist Corner, "Beethoven Improved," as an allegory or analogy.

I riffed some Beethoven, and shared a recording of it. People said, "You can't do that!" Some people said, "You can't do that, you shouldn't do that, and I'm not even going to listen to it!" I said, "Here's what I was trying to do. Here are my artistic reasons. Here are some historical reasons why I felt free to do it." Most people still said, "Who do you think you are? Messing with Beethoven!" I said, "Please, try to understand what I've done." Some people said, "Bah. You are a nobody!" If there were a lot at stake in what I did, I may have gotten upset that people weren't taking me seriously, and allowed myself to be pulled into a downward spiral of insults and name-calling. But, there is little at stake in what I did to Beethoven. And, Beethoven will not be hurt by what I did.

On the other hand, there is much at stake at what Bill has offered in EBVT III. It is a legitimate and beautiful temperament, born from historical precedent and refined with sound practice. But, the pattern of discussion held "true to forum."

Bill said, "I've done something! It's important! I want to share it with you." People said, "You can't do that!" Bill said, "But I did do it. Look, here's what I did. Can you appreciate it?" They said, "It can't be done! If you did that it would sound terrible!" Bill said, "No, no! I know the numbers don't add up to your way of thinking, but it really works. Plus, there is historical precedent for what I've done. See? Here it is!" People said, "You're a kook!" Bill said, "I really want to be understood here. This is exciting! I'm not a kook, and I have credentials. Here they are..." People said, "Take your credintials and your kooky ideas and, well, you know what!" Then, when it became possible to share recordings of this wonderful new idea, Bill said, "See? I told you it wasn't kooky!" Some people listened and said, "Wow! You're right! I didn't think it was possible, especially with the way you described it. But I was wrong!" Some people said, "Bah! It's crap." Some people said, "I don't have to listen. It's too kooky to even consider."

All of this happened with quite a bit of invective. If you keep banging the same dissonant chord, and you bang it louder and louder, well, it gets really unpleasant.

I give Bill credit for sticking to his guns, both about the innovation in the temperament and about his credentials. They are both important. They are both germane. And, I suppose because Bill has a backbone, they both got him banned.

First understand, then seek to be understood. There are two sides to every story, and somewhere inbetween is the truth.

--Andy


No one called you any names, nor did anyone call you a nobody. Let's not get carried away here.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1455682 - 06/13/10 11:49 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Chopinist]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Chopinist
It's about rules and more. Perhaps you haven't been here long enough to know that.


LOL. I haven't been here long enough to know that? Excuse my ignorance, but I do believe I just read where you registered on 6/2?

At any rate, there is no "more" about it. There are rules in place and those incorporating said rules expect them to be followed. If they're not followed then there are consequences. It's really a pretty simple concept. That said, if I'm not mistaken I could have sworn only a few posts ago you said that it's not at all about the rules. Maybe I need my glasses checked. I think it's about what YOU want it to be. When things don't go our way, quite often we search for reasons that fit our way of thinking. It's amazing to me how there's always "more to the picture" when someone's view of said picture becomes distorted.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1455692 - 06/13/10 12:01 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: stores]
Chopinist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/02/10
Posts: 162
I've had internet access for 15 years, so there's no reason to assume my familiarity with this place began on June 2. In fact, it goes back far longer than your own six months of registered membership here.

You can choose to misconstrue what I've written, but this is most certainly about what the Powers That Be "want it to be." That's what being the Powers That Be means: they have the power, they make the rules, and they make up rules when they deem it necessary to their purposes.

I'm not even saying that's unacceptable; I've acknowledged that this is private property, on which fairness and free speech needn't be part of the equation. I just see no reason to pretend otherwise, even if others think good standing is solely a question of playing by the rules—or that the dictatorship is a necessary and benevolent one.
_________________________
"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent." —Wittgenstein

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#1455697 - 06/13/10 12:11 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: JBE]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: byronje3
I don't think there is anything wrong with those that know more sharing and helping those that don't know as much, but when it comes down to being so attached to one individual that people want to flip out or commit suicide because that person is going to be out for a month....it seems slightly hysterical to me.

JDE, even with my subjective opinion and all, when I read through the critical posts here I can't find anybody close to flipping out or ready to commit suicide. Who's hysterical?
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1455701 - 06/13/10 12:13 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Chopinist]
wayne walker Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 515
Loc: Windsor,Nova Scotia Canada
Boxing gloves ... anyone?
_________________________
Wayne Walker
Walker's Piano Service
http://www.walkerpiano.ca/

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#1455704 - 06/13/10 12:20 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Horowitzian]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
Originally Posted By: pppat


H,

Kees did not post any other PM in public than the one he himself wrote in the start. Then Ken Knapp opened the door on that. Or did I miss something?


There's a good reason why they are called PRIVATE messages. I wouldn't consider posting even one I wrote myself.


Nah, c'mon. As long as Kees posts his own writing without any including of possible replies, I can't see how that would breach any netiquette I've ever heard of. YOU on the other hand might find it inappropriate, but please don't refer to a general policy, because you'll find no backup for your thinking there.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1455708 - 06/13/10 12:29 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Horowitzian]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2330
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
[quote by DoelKees] "So maybe this is just the continuation of the centuries old battle of the temperaments. The ET establishment thought they were like the Roman empire for a century now, but the Bremmerians are at the gate. smile

Kees"

Hmmm, the most notable leaders in past history usually had the ability to conduct their affairs in such a way as not to allow their "opponents" the opportunity to sideline them as a spectator.

[quote by Pppat] "...And Bill can't defend himself here, so we have to go with the official version (as in interpreted by the moderators)..."

Yes Pppat, such is life. Same thing happens after a war, the winners get to write the new history books. Always been like that. The stomping of feet does not change this.

[quote by Pppat]

"...I find it wildly amusing and sad at the same time, this moderation of a forum in a country that I deeply respect for it's stress of the importance of free speech and free flow of information..."

Free speech in a heated debate is much like throwing a punch at someones nose. You have a right to do it, even here at PW, but your right stops at the end of the other guys nose.

[quote by Pppat]

"..15 people getting updated 3700+ times each? I bet the mouse re-sellers are the true winners here (wink)..."

Many people such as myself have no concern over such numbers. Post a title saying, "Naked Woman Tuning Piano" and you will have a thousand views by days end. The next day it will be twice as much because people see it was viewed a thousand times already, and so on. Go to any April Fools day thread or hoaxe video at a forum and you see the same occurance. Quality in many cases does not = Quantity or vice versa.


I'm not sure if I'm alone here on this, but when I read a public posting in which a person puts a private IM they sent or recieved from someone; the first thing I do is skip reading it. Its out of some kind of innate respect I have for intended purpose of such message. I have the same respect for a peice of snail mail that ends up at my home wrongly addressed. I do however make a mental note to NEVER correspond with such person again privately and often go out of my way to let other unwary people know the true nature of this person for breaching this kind of trust. The purpose of discussing something privately is to keep it private, no? So why send a private message to someone and then turn around and make it public, when you should have done it publically to begin with?






Edited by Emmery (06/13/10 12:35 PM)
Edit Reason: grammar
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1455710 - 06/13/10 12:35 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: BDB]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: BDB
The only reason I feel threatened by any of this EBVD stuff is that it seems to turn anyone who tries it into a raging paranoid! Must be the electrical charge in their underwear!
And here we go again...

I still can't find raging paranoia in the posts written by pro-EBVT people in this thread. The quality of the replies on the other hand, such as your own here, starts to trouble me.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1455724 - 06/13/10 12:52 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: stores]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1056
Loc: PA
I think there is a something that has been overlooked here.

This is the "Technician's Forum." This is literally a technical forum. It is not a free speech forum. It is a technical forum.

Most technical forums I have participated in have been heavily moderated. Sometimes they've even been aggressively moderated. This is normal on a technical forum. It is done this way to reduce the noise level and keep the forum usable.

In the "Behavior in the Technician Forum" post of March 7, 2009, Frank Baxter states: "I've have asked a couple of moderators to keep an eye on these forums now, as shall I." I found this stunning. This is the first technical forum I have ever encountered that apparently had no moderation at all.

Even now that it is moderated, the moderation is generally quite laid back. These are not criticisms of the moderation here, just observations. This is a privately owned forum and the owner can do as he pleases.

I am including a link to another technical forum's Posting Guide:
http://fedoraforum.org/?view=guide

If you note, under Rules it states:
The following rules must be obeyed, they are for the good of all the members of the forum. Breach of these rules will result in a user being banned from the forum.

I've also done a quick Google search on "technical forum rules" just to get an overview of what's normal on a technical forum these days. It makes for some interesting reading.
These folks have an interesting "Insta-Ban" policy:
http://gbxforums.gearboxsoftware.com/announcement.php?s=366c10b06955992b5691c0341c3dcaa6&f=90

All this being said, Bill Bremmer is one of the stars at PW. He is a very knowledgeable, experienced tech. His input will be missed by me as well. I am somewhat interested in HTs and I was loosely keeping an eye the EBVT III thread. Let's hope he decides to return after his time out and that this can mark a new beginning.


Edited by daniokeeper (06/13/10 12:58 PM)
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#1455737 - 06/13/10 01:07 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: pppat]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20766
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: pppat
Originally Posted By: BDB
The only reason I feel threatened by any of this EBVD stuff is that it seems to turn anyone who tries it into a raging paranoid! Must be the electrical charge in their underwear!
And here we go again...

I still can't find raging paranoia in the posts written by pro-EBVT people in this thread. The quality of the replies on the other hand, such as your own here, starts to trouble me.

Oh, really? When people start saying that Mr. Bremmer has been banned because he dares to be a proponent of his theory, it does not strike you as being the least bit paranoid?

Nobody is stopping anyone from contacting Mr. Bremmer off-site. He has his own website, after all.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1455792 - 06/13/10 02:19 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Chopinist]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Chopinist
I've had internet access for 15 years, so there's no reason to assume my familiarity with this place began on June 2. In fact, it goes back far longer than your own six months of registered membership here.

You can choose to misconstrue what I've written, but this is most certainly about what the Powers That Be "want it to be." That's what being the Powers That Be means: they have the power, they make the rules, and they make up rules when they deem it necessary to their purposes.

I'm not even saying that's unacceptable; I've acknowledged that this is private property, on which fairness and free speech needn't be part of the equation. I just see no reason to pretend otherwise, even if others think good standing is solely a question of playing by the rules—or that the dictatorship is a necessary and benevolent one.


There's nothing to misconstrue. You have A) Rule B) Rule broken C) Result of rule being broken.
It's just that simple. There is nothing between the lines. If you think there is, then it's only the lines in your mind. Oh well, I'm not here to convince you, but only to give a realistic point of view. That said...CONSPIRACY THEORISTS UNITE!!! lmao.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1455795 - 06/13/10 02:26 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: stores]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3724
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: stores

No one called you any names, nor did anyone call you a nobody. Let's not get carried away here.


*sigh*


Edited by Cinnamonbear (06/13/10 02:27 PM)
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1455803 - 06/13/10 02:33 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: BDB]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Emmery
[quote by Pppat] "...And Bill can't defend himself here, so we have to go with the official version (as in interpreted by the moderators)..."

Yes Pppat, such is life. Same thing happens after a war, the winners get to write the new history books. Always been like that. The stomping of feet does not change this.


It saddens me that you see a forum debate as a war, and moderators as the winners of it.

Originally Posted By: Emmery

[quote by Pppat]

"...I find it wildly amusing and sad at the same time, this moderation of a forum in a country that I deeply respect for it's stress of the importance of free speech and free flow of information..."

Free speech in a heated debate is much like throwing a punch at someones nose. You have a right to do it, even here at PW, but your right stops at the end of the other guys nose.

Yes, and so it should be. What baffles me, though, is that fair punches are a no-no, but constant squabbling and clinging on to pants legs seems to be OK and even encouraged.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1455806 - 06/13/10 02:34 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Chopinist]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: Chopinist
It's déjà vu all over again!

There was a big tumult here last January when a respected and knowledgeable member who posted primarily in the Pianist Corner (over 6,000 posts in the course of a few years' time) was permanently banned—ostensibly for cursing a moderator in a private message after the member was threatened with suspension for something he did not do.

"Rules" are, without question, selectively and arbitrarily enforced. The way they are interpreted is completely subjective, and sometimes they get pulled out of thin air. For example, the member I mentioned was accused of repeatedly "derailing" threads. Which rule did that break? What does that even mean, exactly?

It means that other people are routinely granted license here to express their ideas, thoughts and opinions, but this poster was not. However many supportive friends he had here, and however valuable the contributions he had made, he rubbed a few people the wrong way—including Baxter and at least one moderator. In the end, public and private apologies to Baxter and to the moderator who had suffered the retaliatory insult in private for targeting this member for harassment—that's what a false accusation and threat is—were ignored completely.

All of this has happened before, and it will happen again. A few other people invariably claim they'll leave in retaliation and solidarity, but very few would choose to put principles before the fun they have here. Life goes on in any case—and goes on particularly well for the people who express themselves just as Baxter and his minions wish.

It's not about "rules" at all, because it doesn't have to be. That's just smoke and mirrors to make people feel better about being in a fiefdom instead of a democracy. It's about whether the powers that be like you or not.


This post may open a can of worms, but ultimately it makes a good point. There really isn't—to paraphrase Al Gore—a controlling legal authority for forum administrators. Naturally, if they are up to something illegal with their forum there will be criminal consequences (not saying anything about Frank), but ultimately any decision they make is final. I administrate a forum (and globally moderate another) myself, so I know the burden that goes with it. You simply cannot please everyone no matter how fair or aboveboard you are.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1455808 - 06/13/10 02:36 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: stores]
Chopinist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/02/10
Posts: 162
Originally Posted By: stores
There's nothing to misconstrue. You have A) Rule B) Rule broken C) Result of rule being broken.
It's just that simple. There is nothing between the lines. If you think there is, then it's only the lines in your mind. Oh well, I'm not here to convince you, but only to give a realistic point of view. That said...CONSPIRACY THEORISTS UNITE!!! lmao.

You could be a consummate rule-follower and still be banned. Or you could break explicit rules and not be banned. Both situations have happened, and both are permissible on private property. Rules can be selectively and arbitrarily enforced, and they can be made up on the fly.

I don't think I could have been clearer about a member who was accused of "derailing threads," threatened with suspension and then expelled for responding to a moderator with an expletive in private because he knew he was receiving unfair and unequal treatment.

I doubt I needed to be clearer, as a great many people already know exactly what happened—even though some others apparently need to be on the business end of an arbitrary banishment to understand that it could happen to anyone at the property owner's discretion.

"lmao"? Believe what you wish, and laugh your *** off if you wish.
_________________________
"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent." —Wittgenstein

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#1455812 - 06/13/10 02:40 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: stores]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: Chopinist
I've had internet access for 15 years, so there's no reason to assume my familiarity with this place began on June 2. In fact, it goes back far longer than your own six months of registered membership here.

You can choose to misconstrue what I've written, but this is most certainly about what the Powers That Be "want it to be." That's what being the Powers That Be means: they have the power, they make the rules, and they make up rules when they deem it necessary to their purposes.

I'm not even saying that's unacceptable; I've acknowledged that this is private property, on which fairness and free speech needn't be part of the equation. I just see no reason to pretend otherwise, even if others think good standing is solely a question of playing by the rules—or that the dictatorship is a necessary and benevolent one.


There's nothing to misconstrue. You have A) Rule B) Rule broken C) Result of rule being broken.
It's just that simple. There is nothing between the lines. If you think there is, then it's only the lines in your mind. Oh well, I'm not here to convince you, but only to give a realistic point of view. That said...CONSPIRACY THEORISTS UNITE!!! lmao.


Part of the problem with PW is that there are no globally defined rules. Yeah, there's a sort of a rules thread in the Piano Forum, and a thread here in the Tech Forum. At my forum, I have the rules prominently and clearly defined in a global announcement that is visible in each forum area. My open suggestion to Frank and the global moderators is to codify and make plainly visible in each forum the expected rules of conduct here. That way, when someone must be disciplined, a specific rule may be pointed to as being broken.

As things are now, it's a bit like changing the rules after the game has started, since no one person really has any idea what the rules are beyond generalities.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1455813 - 06/13/10 02:42 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: pppat]
JBE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 377
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: pppat
Originally Posted By: BDB
The only reason I feel threatened by any of this EBVD stuff is that it seems to turn anyone who tries it into a raging paranoid! Must be the electrical charge in their underwear!
And here we go again...

I still can't find raging paranoia in the posts written by pro-EBVT people in this thread. The quality of the replies on the other hand, such as your own here, starts to trouble me.



PPPat, your idea of a quality reply must be one in which you are agreed with and patted on the back. SEVEN titles after your name says a lot.


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#1455818 - 06/13/10 02:50 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: JBE]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3724
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: byronje3


PPPat, your idea of a quality reply must be one in which you are agreed with and patted on the back. SEVEN titles after your name says a lot.



*sigh*


Edited by Cinnamonbear (06/13/10 02:51 PM)
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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