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Topic Options
#1455821 - 06/13/10 02:55 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: JBE]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
No, JBE, that is not my idea of a quality reply. And what's your problem with my signature line? I just try to make clear who I am, according to the disclosure guidelines that PW reminded us of a month ago or so.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1455833 - 06/13/10 03:14 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: daniokeeper]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper

[...]
I've also done a quick Google search on "technical forum rules" just to get an overview of what's normal on a technical forum these days. It makes for some interesting reading.
These folks have an interesting "Insta-Ban" policy:
http://gbxforums.gearboxsoftware.com/announcement.php?s=366c10b06955992b5691c0341c3dcaa6&f=90


Thanks Joe, not only is that policy interesting, the rest of it is too. Seems to be a very thought-through system, as opposed to the very one causing this debate.

The "ban bin" keeps the system transparent. The moderators are clearly labeled in a way that makes their posts immediately recognizable to the members. The rules state that a forum like that would come down hard on much of the squabbling, baiting and destructiveness that has become the trademarks of many posters here.

I don't think most people have problems with obeying rules in a forum, as long as they are clearly defined from the start, and fairly applied on every participant's writings.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1455837 - 06/13/10 03:33 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: BDB]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: BDB
Originally Posted By: pppat

I still can't find raging paranoia in the posts written by pro-EBVT people in this thread. The quality of the replies on the other hand, such as your own here, starts to trouble me.

Oh, really? When people start saying that Mr. Bremmer has been banned because he dares to be a proponent of his theory, it does not strike you as being the least bit paranoid?

Not paranoid, as it might be plausible. I don't have the answers, so I'd be careful to label other peoples opinions as paranoia. PS where did the adjective go - not 'raging' anymore?

Originally Posted By: BDB

Nobody is stopping anyone from contacting Mr. Bremmer off-site. He has his own website, after all.


Thank's for that advice, BDB, I would never have thought of that... wink
C'mon, the possibilities to get in contact with Bill is not the issue here.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1455848 - 06/13/10 03:54 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: pppat]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21431
Loc: Oakland
Quote:
C'mon, the possibilities to get in contact with Bill is not the issue here.


So what is it, then? A vast international conspiracy?

It is plausible that Frank is being told by space aliens to ban Mr. Bremmer. However, it is far more likely that someone who believes that is paranoid, just as it is far more likely that someone who believes that his banning was due to his ideas, rather than his breaking the rules, is paranoid.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1455860 - 06/13/10 04:09 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: BDB]
JBE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 377
Loc: USA
Arrogance, not paranoia. Arrogance seems to surround the EBVT crowd. "My method of tuning is slightly different than the average piano tuning method, this makes my tunings better and of a higher quality." Also, this attitude that I have perceived from a couple of posts, "if Bill goes then I'll go too and without my greatness the PW Forums will collapse, all of you boring simpletons will have to have fun by yourselves."
Hogwash.


Top
#1455867 - 06/13/10 04:28 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: pppat]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2365
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: pppat
Originally Posted By: Emmery
[quote by Pppat] "...And Bill can't defend himself here, so we have to go with the official version (as in interpreted by the moderators)..."

Yes Pppat, such is life. Same thing happens after a war, the winners get to write the new history books. Always been like that. The stomping of feet does not change this.


It saddens me that you see a forum debate as a war, and moderators as the winners of it.

Originally Posted By: Emmery

[quote by Pppat]



"...I find it wildly amusing and sad at the same time, this moderation of a forum in a country that I deeply respect for it's stress of the importance of free speech and free flow of information..."

Free speech in a heated debate is much like throwing a punch at someones nose. You have a right to do it, even here at PW, but your right stops at the end of the other guys nose.

Yes, and so it should be. What baffles me, though, is that fair punches are a no-no, but constant squabbling and clinging on to pants legs seems to be OK and even encouraged.


When people are attacked constantly because they don't share the same views or belong to the some organization, yes it does resemble a war more than a public debate on a private forum. I'm saddened by it too. But I try and keep my perspectives in check as I wade through it and make sure I don't ruffle the feathers of the overseeing body that rules it. Moderators only "win" when these forums run without their need to step in and edit or moderate posters. They also occaisionally "win" peicemeal, if someone unwisely happens to challenge their authority or needlessly taunt them.

I would not agree with you about moderators here encouraging the squabbling or clinging to pants legs if that is who you referred to. I think they ultimately want the forum to be civil enough to attract input, and for visitors to feel welcome. Contraversy and debates are an attractive part of this for many who come. How boring it would be if we just had a bunch of people agreeing with each other and back patting for the sake of some forum utopia.

It was mentioned that some people coming onto the EBVT thread did so only to give negative criticism, to be destructive ect... The forum rules do not say you have to agee with people. The nature of negative criticism is such that one person sees it as destructive and another sees it as constructive. Maybe time could be spent better trying to understand why this is.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1455887 - 06/13/10 05:20 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: pppat]
Ken Knapp Offline



Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 2217
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: pppat
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
Originally Posted By: pppat


H,

Kees did not post any other PM in public than the one he himself wrote in the start. Then Ken Knapp opened the door on that. Or did I miss something?


There's a good reason why they are called PRIVATE messages. I wouldn't consider posting even one I wrote myself.


Nah, c'mon. As long as Kees posts his own writing without any including of possible replies, I can't see how that would breach any netiquette I've ever heard of. YOU on the other hand might find it inappropriate, but please don't refer to a general policy, because you'll find no backup for your thinking there.


Actually, he quoted MY PM to HIM. THen he quoted HIS reply and then my replies to him.

Not against the rules, but as Horowitzian said, it is a breach of netiquette.
_________________________
Ken

Piano Organ Depot
http://www.pianoorgandepot.com
Hammond Organ Technician
http://www.tonewheeltech.com
Vice President - MITA, International
http://www.mitatechs.org
http://www.facebook.com/MITATechs

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#1455891 - 06/13/10 05:23 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: pppat]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1072
Loc: PA
Hi Patrick,

(I promise there's a point to this rambling "old guy"
story smile )

After I turned 40, I decided that I finally wanted to stop being a renter and actually purchase a home. I bought an old, decrepit mom'n'pop grocery store that had been empty for 10 years. I got it cheap. I put every cent I had into remodeling it and converting it into a home. I did a lot of the work myself. Little did I know what awaited me.

To make a long story short, during the time this place was empty, some folks had gotten into the habit of using the yard for their own purposes. There was no one here to correct them. When I tried to exercise control over my own property (like politely telling folks that it was not OK to continue coming into my yard and curbing their dog directly under my bedroom window (or all over my lawn) when I wasn't home), I was met with defiance or just ignored. After years of battling with the simple-minded over the obvious, I went to Lowe's Hardware Store and purchased 3 "No Trespassing" signs and displayed them prominently. Though I get nasty looks from some folks now, things have really calmed down here.

Of course, most people here are decent. There was just a tiny minority that made it miserable for me ( and probably for the other folks, too).

I am a living, breathing example that clear, prominent signs keep the peace. We cannot just assume that everyone else shares our viewpoint.


Edited by daniokeeper (06/13/10 05:30 PM)
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

Top
#1455908 - 06/13/10 05:56 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: JBE]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: byronje3
Arrogance, not paranoia. Arrogance seems to surround the EBVT crowd. "My method of tuning is slightly different than the average piano tuning method, this makes me better and of a higher quality." Also this attitude of,"if Bill goes then I'll go too and without my greatness the PW Forums will collapse, all of you boring simpletons will have to have fun by yourselves."
Hogwash.


These I haven't heard either. To me, it's getting a bit tiring to go looking for all the balls hit out of bounds in this game. If it is deliberately, could you please stop that? If it's not on purpose, well, what can you do...

I can't recall any EBVT:ers speaking of their greatness, nor that their possible withdrawal from this forum would make PW collapse.

And, if someone says that they think EBVT III a is better/more interesting/more exciting way of tuning the piano, that is still just a personal opinion, isn't it? Why would other people thinking differently take anything away from your own work?

Your constructed, quote-marked lines in this post says way more about you than of those you try to mock.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1455913 - 06/13/10 06:00 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Cinnamonbear]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted By: stores

No one called you any names, nor did anyone call you a nobody. Let's not get carried away here.


*sigh*


Cmon now. Don't sigh. You know it's true. Not a single person slung a name at you, nor did anyone belittle you by calling you a nobody. If it makes you feel any better, IIIIIIIIII am a nobody regarding Beethoven and as such would never consider changing a dot, or dash that he'd penned. There now, how's that?
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1455919 - 06/13/10 06:06 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Ken Knapp]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Ken Knapp
Originally Posted By: pppat
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
Originally Posted By: pppat


H,

Kees did not post any other PM in public than the one he himself wrote in the start. Then Ken Knapp opened the door on that. Or did I miss something?


There's a good reason why they are called PRIVATE messages. I wouldn't consider posting even one I wrote myself.


Nah, c'mon. As long as Kees posts his own writing without any including of possible replies, I can't see how that would breach any netiquette I've ever heard of. YOU on the other hand might find it inappropriate, but please don't refer to a general policy, because you'll find no backup for your thinking there.


Actually, he quoted MY PM to HIM. THen he quoted HIS reply and then my replies to him.

Not against the rules, but as Horowitzian said, it is a breach of netiquette.



Ken, Horowitzan,

I'm sorry - my bad. This thread is kind of lively, and I seem to have missed that post (found it now, though.) I read Kees' first post (his letter to Frank), and then the later ones (starting somewhere around your discussion of 'a classy guy').

I see what you say about this, and agree on it being bad netiquette.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1455931 - 06/13/10 06:16 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Chopinist]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Chopinist
Originally Posted By: stores
There's nothing to misconstrue. You have A) Rule B) Rule broken C) Result of rule being broken.
It's just that simple. There is nothing between the lines. If you think there is, then it's only the lines in your mind. Oh well, I'm not here to convince you, but only to give a realistic point of view. That said...CONSPIRACY THEORISTS UNITE!!! lmao.

You could be a consummate rule-follower and still be banned. Or you could break explicit rules and not be banned. Both situations have happened, and both are permissible on private property. Rules can be selectively and arbitrarily enforced, and they can be made up on the fly.

I don't think I could have been clearer about a member who was accused of "derailing threads," threatened with suspension and then expelled for responding to a moderator with an expletive in private because he knew he was receiving unfair and unequal treatment.

I doubt I needed to be clearer, as a great many people already know exactly what happened—even though some others apparently need to be on the business end of an arbitrary banishment to understand that it could happen to anyone at the property owner's discretion.

"lmao"? Believe what you wish, and laugh your *** off if you wish.


Well, I've been given a time out myself, so I'm well aware of the process. I wasn't treated unfairly, or unequally. I broke a rule one too many times and that was that. Quite simple, really. I'm also well aware of the situation that you're talking about (I was smack in the middle of it at one point). Now then, if you take the time to look at the "Forum Rules & Help" section you'll see...

"Membership Has It's Privileges
By becoming a member, you gain the opportunity to post questions and/or contribute answers."

Ahhhh! Membership is a PRIVILEGE. Well I'll be. In fact it states that by becoming a member you gain the OPPORTUNITY to post, etc. Gosh, I thought it was a RIGHT!
You'll also see...

"Things that can get you banned...
Vulgarity...constantly hijacking threads"

Hmm, now then, you say this member was accused of derailing threads. Well that seems to be a violation according to the above. You also mention that this member sent a PM to a moderator containing an expletive. Hmm, once again that would appear to be a violation.
I'm not sure how much more cut and dry it has to be really. Once again, if you break a rule you'll suffer the consequence. If you do not break the rules you'll continue to be able to use the forum the way you always have. I know sometimes the simplest things are the most difficult to grasp, but if you're not open to the concept, then you'll never get it...and then, of course, there are those who refuse to get it.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1455939 - 06/13/10 06:27 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: pppat]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: pppat
Originally Posted By: Ken Knapp
Originally Posted By: pppat
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
Originally Posted By: pppat


H,

Kees did not post any other PM in public than the one he himself wrote in the start. Then Ken Knapp opened the door on that. Or did I miss something?


There's a good reason why they are called PRIVATE messages. I wouldn't consider posting even one I wrote myself.


Nah, c'mon. As long as Kees posts his own writing without any including of possible replies, I can't see how that would breach any netiquette I've ever heard of. YOU on the other hand might find it inappropriate, but please don't refer to a general policy, because you'll find no backup for your thinking there.


Actually, he quoted MY PM to HIM. THen he quoted HIS reply and then my replies to him.

Not against the rules, but as Horowitzian said, it is a breach of netiquette.



Ken, Horowitzan,

I'm sorry - my bad. This thread is kind of lively, and I seem to have missed that post (found it now, though.) I read Kees' first post (his letter to Frank), and then the later ones (starting somewhere around your discussion of 'a classy guy').

I see what you say about this, and agree on it being bad netiquette.


No problem, mate. It's easy to miss things. smile


After much searching, I finally found the rules. They are buried down in a forum area very few ever read. I again strongly suggest that these rules are reviewed, refined, and reposted as stickies in each and every forum. Very much like daniokeeper's no trespassing signs. If people can easily see the rules, they are more likely to follow them. And if they don't, the forum leaders can point to specific rules as reasons for any disciplinary action.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1455943 - 06/13/10 06:32 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: JBE]
JBE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 377
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: byronje3
Arrogance, not paranoia. Arrogance seems to surround the EBVT crowd. "My method of tuning is slightly different than the average piano tuning method, this makes my tunings better and of a higher quality." Also, this attitude that I have perceived from a couple of posts, "if Bill goes then I'll go too and without my greatness the PW Forums will collapse, all of you boring simpletons will have to have fun by yourselves."
Hogwash.



I'm quoting myself quoting my perceptions. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

Top
#1455954 - 06/13/10 06:49 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: stores]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Hi Patrick,

(I promise there's a point to this rambling "old guy"
story smile )

After I turned 40, I decided that I finally wanted to stop being a renter and actually purchase a home. I bought an old, decrepit mom'n'pop grocery store that had been empty for 10 years. I got it cheap. I put every cent I had into remodeling it and converting it into a home. I did a lot of the work myself. Little did I know what awaited me.

To make a long story short, during the time this place was empty, some folks had gotten into the habit of using the yard for their own purposes. There was no one here to correct them. When I tried to exercise control over my own property (like politely telling folks that it was not OK to continue coming into my yard and curbing their dog directly under my bedroom window (or all over my lawn) when I wasn't home), I was met with defiance or just ignored. After years of battling with the simple-minded over the obvious, I went to Lowe's Hardware Store and purchased 3 "No Trespassing" signs and displayed them prominently. Though I get nasty looks from some folks now, things have really calmed down here.

Of course, most people here are decent. There was just a tiny minority that made it miserable for me ( and probably for the other folks, too).

I am a living, breathing example that clear, prominent signs keep the peace. We cannot just assume that everyone else shares our viewpoint.


smile Joe,
That's a good example, and once again it advocates the need for some well-thought rules in a clear, visible place of this forum. A "ban bin" would be a great idea to, so members didn't have to do so much second-guessing in the matter of bans.

Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: EdmontonPianoTuner
Dear Frank:
Yes this site is your private property.



If you readily admit this, then, how can one disapprove of any action taken by said owner? If I were to traipse into your yard with a group of people, by your logic, you could ask no one to leave regardless of their actions, be it to your liking, or not. Let's say you informed everyone in your yard that, "there will be no access to the southwestern corner of the yard" (notice you didn't say "please" which would make said statement an admonition, but rather you said, "there will be none", which infers a rule). Some, however, don't much care about your "rule" and make their way to said southwestern corner and plant themselves there. Now then, what do you do? You didn't ASK them not to venture there...you TOLD them not to. How many times must you tell them to remove themselves from the corner before you decide you don't want these people in your yard any longer? You shouldn't worry about it at all though should you? After all you're restricting their freedom right? I mean the reasons you had for not wanting them there to begin with are simply your own, and after all, it's ONLY your private property. Get a grip man...we'll wander through every corner of your yard whether you like it, or not.


another take on your story here… the owner could very well state such a rule. Then a gang could hang out very close to that corner, calling somebody they dislike names. Then, after a while this guy will walk up to them, irritated. The gang forms a half circle around him, and more or less forces him to step into that very forbidden area. Then they shout "Mr owner, Mr owner, come and have a look, he is in the forbidden zone." Mission accomplished. The guy they wanted to get rid of is thrown out, and they can party in peace.

A sport referee is keeping a keen eye on all signs of conflict and tension developing during the game. When it comes to a hard desicion, he usually knows the true story behind it - he doesn't have to rely on highly subjective information from both team players running up to him to tell the truth, all the truth, and nothing but the truth. Fact is, a referee with his back to the play is in severe trouble when something bad happens. I have a gnawing feeling in my stomach that comes from a suspicion that the founder and moderators didn't see the whole picture, tailored some common-sense rules on fly, and hope it would all pass as unofficial as possible - banning just the one guy that seemed to get most 'votes' by his opponents, disguised as neutral, obeying members. and - doing this in a PM without informing the community of that decision. Let's for God's sake really hope that this isn't the case here.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#1455957 - 06/13/10 06:59 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Horowitzian]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1072
Loc: PA
Hi Horowitzian,

These rules are very well written and clear. There is a link under "What's Hot" to "Forum Rules & Help." Somehow I've been managing to stare right at it without seeing it.

-Joe
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#1455960 - 06/13/10 07:01 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: pppat]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: pppat


another take on your story here…


Ok, I read your story and understand where you're coming from, but that's not what happened here. I think my scenario paints the picture a bit closer to home. As I said, though, I do see your point.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1455962 - 06/13/10 07:03 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: stores]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
By the way H, you're over your PM limit. wink
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1455978 - 06/13/10 07:38 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: stores]
Chopinist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/02/10
Posts: 162
Originally Posted By: stores
Well, I've been given a time out myself, so I'm well aware of the process. I wasn't treated unfairly, or unequally. I broke a rule one too many times and that was that. Quite simple, really. I'm also well aware of the situation that you're talking about (I was smack in the middle of it at one point). Now then, if you take the time to look at the "Forum Rules & Help" section you'll see...

"Membership Has It's Privileges
By becoming a member, you gain the opportunity to post questions and/or contribute answers."

Ahhhh! Membership is a PRIVILEGE. Well I'll be. In fact it states that by becoming a member you gain the OPPORTUNITY to post, etc. Gosh, I thought it was a RIGHT!
You'll also see...

"Things that can get you banned...
Vulgarity...constantly hijacking threads"

Hmm, now then, you say this member was accused of derailing threads. Well that seems to be a violation according to the above. You also mention that this member sent a PM to a moderator containing an expletive. Hmm, once again that would appear to be a violation.
I'm not sure how much more cut and dry it has to be really. Once again, if you break a rule you'll suffer the consequence. If you do not break the rules you'll continue to be able to use the forum the way you always have. I know sometimes the simplest things are the most difficult to grasp, but if you're not open to the concept, then you'll never get it...and then, of course, there are those who refuse to get it.

I doubt anyone could provide a neat, circumscribed definition of "derailing threads." It's the obvious nature of a message board that conversations follow tangents and thoughts get expressed that are extrinsic to the apparent scope of the original topic or question. It's a slippery enough "rule" that it serves to mean whatever a moderator decides it will mean.

When it's invoked against a respected member who shared tirelessly of his knowledge in thousands of posts, and the "derailed" threads contain innumerable other posts or statements by other members that could equally be judged as "derailing" by anyone motivated to make that assessment, one would reasonably question just what the motive was and why the "rule" wasn't equitably enforced.

The eager allegations of paranoia and conspiracy theories in this discussion invite the reciprocal observation that a bit of Stockholm Syndrome is going on. I don't know much about that, but I wonder if blaming the victim isn't a corollary: someone who has been castigated must have deserved the punishment that he received. It's necessary to believe that, because to admit any less rational possibility would destabilize the neat and orderly foundation to which some people cling. Everything has to happen for a reason—so that a world of random, chaotic, violent or ignoble acts can make even a modicum of sense.

As I said before, people can believe what they want. And they should. There are various coping mechanisms for a world (and a Piano World) that may be less rational, ordered or sensible than we'd wish it to be, so I would advocate using whatever works.
_________________________
"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent." —Wittgenstein

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#1455984 - 06/13/10 07:51 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: stores]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: stores
By the way H, you're over your PM limit. wink


Dammit, not again..... blush

I'll clear things out. smile
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1455991 - 06/13/10 08:00 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: stores]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: pppat


another take on your story here…


Ok, I read your story and understand where you're coming from, but that's not what happened here. I think my scenario paints the picture a bit closer to home. As I said, though, I do see your point.


smile I thought about asking this before, but forgot. Now your post brings the same question up again:

Are you a moderator at PW? You said something earlier (to Kees I think) that if he would have written (the way he wrote to Ken) to you, he wouldn't be reading your reply.

Then here again, you say "that's not what happened here". Well, to me my scenario is more likely than yours - given that we are just two normal members contemplating this all.

That would of course be different if you're "on the inside", so to speak. Well, are you?
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1455996 - 06/13/10 08:05 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: pppat]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: pppat
[...]

Are you a moderator at PW? You said something earlier (to Kees I think) that if he would have written (the way he wrote to Ken) to you, he wouldn't be reading your reply.
[...]


No one is a moderator unless their username is colored green (moderator; Brendan, Kreisler, Phlebas) or blue (global moderator; BB Player, Ken Knapp).
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1455997 - 06/13/10 08:09 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: pppat]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: pppat
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: pppat


another take on your story here…


Ok, I read your story and understand where you're coming from, but that's not what happened here. I think my scenario paints the picture a bit closer to home. As I said, though, I do see your point.


smile I thought about asking this before, but forgot. Now your post brings the same question up again:

Are you a moderator at PW? You said something earlier (to Kees I think) that if he would have written (the way he wrote to Ken) to you, he wouldn't be reading your reply.

Then here again, you say "that's not what happened here". Well, to me my scenario is more likely than yours - given that we are just two normal members contemplating this all.

That would of course be different if you're "on the inside", so to speak. Well, are you?


No, I'm not a moderator. What I meant in my reply to Kees, was that had he written to me in that manner and I WERE a moderator, then he wouldn't be reading my reply (because he'd have been banned already).
What I meant with "that's not what happened here", is that the scenario you painted adds too much to the picture. It's not that complex.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1456000 - 06/13/10 08:12 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: pppat]
JBE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 377
Loc: USA
Since I've allowed myself to get involved here, I feel it necessary to exit this fiasco with a bit of thoughtfulness.

Here's the bottom line.

Someone that you count on for your tuning education has been suspended for breaking the forum rules. Out of frustration you tried to gather a group to your side of the issue to go up against the moderator/owner of PW. I posted some comments that you didn't like and so you attacked me rather vigorously.
Unfortunately, I've allowed myself to get involved in a problem that is really only yours. My mistake. Hurling insults around is not something I enjoy doing.

Good luck. Hopefully you'll get over it in time.

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#1456023 - 06/13/10 09:17 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: JBE]
eweiss Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Beautiful San Diego, CA
Just out of curiosity, are banned and/or suspended members able to read these forums? I know a lot of forums allow you to adjust permissions.
_________________________
Play New Age Piano
http://www.quiescencemusic.com

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#1456061 - 06/13/10 10:33 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: eweiss]
RPD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 961
Loc: Kalamazoo Michigan
Interesting....there have been many insightful and thoughtful ideas and comments shared up to this point.

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread, and that I think bears bringing up: we as technicians have an obligation, indeed a duty, to advocate for the industry. It is up to us to set the tone, and to elevate the conversation.

While I've learned from Mr. Bremmer's ideas and teachings (and I don't want to pick on Bill here) I think it is overall harmful to our standing as technicians to air THIS type of commentary in public. I'm not sure what alternative there would be, but I'm fairly certain that the general public is not compelled by arguments between advocates of various temprements or for that matter, membership in organizations et al. PW draws thousands of people, some who post, and others who do not and just watch quietly. We are on stage here, and if we are wise, we will step away from this thread and perhaps move back to better offerings.

I'm as guilty as everybody else, of course, but I raise this because we ALL have an advocacy role to play here...and one of us being banned (for whatever reasons) is really also a a black eye to the industry, the organization he represents, and the trade in general.

The only way out, to my mind, is to elevate the conversation, starting now probably, past analysis of analysis, and onto better subject matter.

What do you say?...I deeply respect each and every one of you, but lets get back to work and let this thread drop off the radar.

RPD
_________________________
MPT(Master Piano Technicians of America)
Member AMICA (Automated Musical Instruments Collector's Association)
(Subscriber PTG Journal)
Piano-Tuner-Rebuilder/Musician www.actionpianoservice.com

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#1456071 - 06/13/10 10:49 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: eweiss]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: eweiss
Just out of curiosity, are banned and/or suspended members able to read these forums? I know a lot of forums allow you to adjust permissions.


I think in most cases they can view as a guest. I believe an IP ban may make the forum unreadable, however.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1456075 - 06/13/10 10:57 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Horowitzian]
jotur Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5507
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
I can read the forum without logging in. Do you mean, Horowitzian, that the forums can tell when I'm reading it even if I'm not logged in? And can keep me from reading it even I'm not logged in? Wow!

Cathy
_________________________

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#1456078 - 06/13/10 11:07 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: jotur]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: jotur
I can read the forum without logging in. Do you mean, Horowitzian, that the forums can tell when I'm reading it even if I'm not logged in? And can keep me from reading it even I'm not logged in? Wow!

Cathy


I believe that's possible since your IP is known even if you are a guest.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1456093 - 06/13/10 11:31 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Horowitzian]
jotur Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5507
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
I'll be darned.

Cathy
_________________________

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