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Topic Options
#1456099 - 06/13/10 11:39 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: jotur]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2416
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Horowitzian, that is incorrect. It is possible to circumvent an IP address ban.

I have a question Horwitzian...what is the purpose of your small box at the bottom left of your posts, that lists the IP address, the Internet Access gateway, the Operating system and the browser of people reading your posts?

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#1456102 - 06/13/10 11:46 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Grandpianoman]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: Grandpianoman
Horowitzian, that is incorrect. It is possible to circumvent an IP address ban.

I have a question Horwitzian...what is the purpose of your small box at the bottom left of your posts, that lists the IP address, the Internet Access gateway, the Operating system and the browser of people reading your posts?


Of course, by getting a new one. laugh

Only you can see that stuff. It's a harmless joke. smile
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1456105 - 06/13/10 11:54 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Horowitzian]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2416
Loc: Portland, Oregon
LOL...actually, I guess getting a new IP would work, but that is not what I was referring to. smile

Ahhh..I thought so, just was not clear on the purpose.

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#1456122 - 06/14/10 12:08 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Grandpianoman]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: Grandpianoman
LOL...actually, I guess getting a new IP would work, but that is not what I was referring to. smile

Ahhh..I thought so, just was not clear on the purpose.


Such as?? Please PM if you like. Additionally, some forums allow the administrator to ban a domain name.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1456159 - 06/14/10 01:31 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Chopinist]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: Chopinist

I doubt anyone could provide a neat, circumscribed definition of "derailing threads." It's the obvious nature of a message board that conversations follow tangents and thoughts get expressed that are extrinsic to the apparent scope of the original topic or question. It's a slippery enough "rule" that it serves to mean whatever a moderator decides it will mean.
Exactly. What is derailing? Does the consistent nonsense and kowtowing that most threads contain count? The supercilious facile middle-of-the-road goes-without-saying platitudes that make up so much of any thread? As for the forum vigilantes...


Edited by keyboardklutz (06/14/10 02:54 AM)
Edit Reason: left out the word inane.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1456219 - 06/14/10 03:40 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: stores]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3991
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted By: stores

No one called you any names, nor did anyone call you a nobody. Let's not get carried away here.


*sigh*


Cmon now. Don't sigh. You know it's true. Not a single person slung a name at you, nor did anyone belittle you by calling you a nobody. If it makes you feel any better, IIIIIIIIII am a nobody regarding Beethoven and as such would never consider changing a dot, or dash that he'd penned. There now, how's that?


stores,

I *sigh* because, once again, you misunderstand me, where I am seeking to be understood! And yet, you make me laugh, because you misunderstand me so terribly! I am at the point of *rolling my eyes*! grin
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1456230 - 06/14/10 04:05 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Cinnamonbear]
maserman1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 155
Loc: U.K.
Horowitzian

It's not funny. Stop it.
_________________________
Bechstein C 1890, Rebuilt
Bechstein V 1888, Project

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#1456268 - 06/14/10 07:47 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: pppat]
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
Originally Posted By: pppat
To be perfectly clear - and quite blunt - you do not make the forum, the dedicated participants do. Patrick


wrong.

i can't believe i read this whole thread.

one would think tuners would have equal temperaments.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#1456273 - 06/14/10 08:08 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: apple*]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4980
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Bill, like the rest of us, is his own worst enemy,

Of course Mr. Baxter did not act inappropriately. This website is his possession to do with what he chooses.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1456301 - 06/14/10 09:35 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: UnrightTooner]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3250
Loc: Virginia, USA
I'm here because most of the time this is a congenial forum with most of the people willing to respect the rules.

That occurs partly because of the self selection of people who join - but not entirely. It is also largely due to effective moderation.

I've been targeted on other forums where the moderation was ineffective or absent, and that's why I'm no longer there.

In every moderated forum I've experienced, there has been a tendency for certain people to "get away with" more than others because of their obvious knowledge base or professional credentials.

Inevitably they've pushed the envelope. Inevitably they've drawn the newbies into their style.

And if moderators did eventually intervene, there were always howls of rage from the masses who felt the info content justified putting up with the rule violations.

Sorry, it doesn't. It is no harder to transmit information courteously than rudely.
_________________________
gotta go practice

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#1456304 - 06/14/10 09:42 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: keyboardklutz]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Bill, like the rest of us, is his own worst enemy,

Of course Mr. Baxter did not act inappropriately. This website is his possession to do with what he chooses.



Quite so; however, our participation here (and by extension, contribution to the fame—or infamy—of this forum) is something we chose to do voluntarily when we signed up. smile

Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: Chopinist

I doubt anyone could provide a neat, circumscribed definition of "derailing threads." It's the obvious nature of a message board that conversations follow tangents and thoughts get expressed that are extrinsic to the apparent scope of the original topic or question. It's a slippery enough "rule" that it serves to mean whatever a moderator decides it will mean.
Exactly. What is derailing? Does the consistent nonsense and kowtowing that most threads contain count? The supercilious facile middle-of-the-road goes-without-saying platitudes that make up so much of any thread? As for the forum vigilantes...


Exactly.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

Top
#1456357 - 06/14/10 11:25 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Horowitzian]
Ken Knapp Online   content



Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 2278
Loc: Pennsylvania
I can give a general idea of what derailing is.. Another term that describes it is hijacking. Suppose someone starts a topic asking about finding a tuner in his area. And suppose the reply to the question is a commentary on the weather in the OP's area. Then the next reply is something like, "that's nothing, you should see the weather here". And on and on. The poor OP wanted to know how to find someone to tune his piano. But his question remained unanswered and the direction his topic has taken pretty much promises that it won't.

Or perhaps the same OP asks the same question. And the reply is "hey stupid, search the forum and you'll see you can go to the PTG and search for a local tuner" Then the next post continues the rant about people who ask questions without searching first.

Both cases, the topic has been derailed. One case it was done without meanness or malice. The second case was just plain mean.

And what would a moderator do about it? In a large part it depends on the OP. If he complains we take a look to evaluate the validity of his complaint and then go from there. We approach things from the standpoint we're all adults and can take care of ourselves. So if it does not bother the OP, then we might let it go. If the OP DOES have a problem with it, that's a different story. In other words, if you ask for help, we'll do what we can. If you don't think you need help, in a lot of cases we will honor that as well.

Some may approve of that approach, others may not. Regardless, it is what it is. And it can be that way because the forum is privately owned and is here at Frank Baxter's pleasure. He could literally decide in an instant that it's not worth the trouble and in a couple mouse clicks take these forums offline. No, I'm not saying it's even likely that would ever happen. I am just saying that it is within his right and ability. smile

Ken
_________________________
Ken

Piano Organ Depot
http://www.pianoorgandepot.com
Hammond Organ Technician
http://www.tonewheeltech.com
Vice President - MITA, International
http://www.mitatechs.org
http://www.facebook.com/MITATechs

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#1456369 - 06/14/10 11:46 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: RPD]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1105
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: RPD
Interesting....there have been many insightful and thoughtful ideas and comments shared up to this point.

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread, and that I think bears bringing up: we as technicians have an obligation, indeed a duty, to advocate for the industry. It is up to us to set the tone, and to elevate the conversation.

While I've learned from Mr. Bremmer's ideas and teachings (and I don't want to pick on Bill here) I think it is overall harmful to our standing as technicians to air THIS type of commentary in public. I'm not sure what alternative there would be, but I'm fairly certain that the general public is not compelled by arguments between advocates of various temprements or for that matter, membership in organizations et al. PW draws thousands of people, some who post, and others who do not and just watch quietly. We are on stage here, and if we are wise, we will step away from this thread and perhaps move back to better offerings.

I'm as guilty as everybody else, of course, but I raise this because we ALL have an advocacy role to play here...and one of us being banned (for whatever reasons) is really also a a black eye to the industry, the organization he represents, and the trade in general.

The only way out, to my mind, is to elevate the conversation, starting now probably, past analysis of analysis, and onto better subject matter.

What do you say?...I deeply respect each and every one of you, but lets get back to work and let this thread drop off the radar.

RPD




Well said!
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#1456374 - 06/14/10 11:51 AM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: TimR]
Chopinist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/02/10
Posts: 162
Originally Posted By: TimR
I'm here because most of the time this is a congenial forum with most of the people willing to respect the rules.

That occurs partly because of the self selection of people who join - but not entirely. It is also largely due to effective moderation.

I've been targeted on other forums where the moderation was ineffective or absent, and that's why I'm no longer there.

In every moderated forum I've experienced, there has been a tendency for certain people to "get away with" more than others because of their obvious knowledge base or professional credentials.

Inevitably they've pushed the envelope. Inevitably they've drawn the newbies into their style.

And if moderators did eventually intervene, there were always howls of rage from the masses who felt the info content justified putting up with the rule violations.

Sorry, it doesn't. It is no harder to transmit information courteously than rudely.

It's nice to be important, but it's important to be nice. You're right! But everybody has a different idea of what that means even in real life. It's even trickier in a medium in which we're invisible to one another and everything depends on the written word.

The proposition that matters of style and tone be policed through moderation seems extreme. It would practically beckon those with vigilante impulses to report any or every post—or at least all those by members they don't like. (And that's an inexorable fact of forum participation, too. We make friends with kindred spirits, and others don't like our style—just like in the real world!)

In any case, you're talking about two very different issues here. Breaches of politeness shouldn't be conflated with violations of rules—unless something so vague as what constitutes an acceptable writing style (and to whom) is to be codified into rules as well.
_________________________
"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent." —Wittgenstein

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#1456401 - 06/14/10 12:23 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: UnrightTooner]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4980
Loc: Bradford County, PA
I was scanning through this Topic looking for anything original or interesting. All I could find was that Bill had been given a time out before – but I remember clearly that he said he had not!!!!! I will keep the very full salt shaker even closer if I read his posts.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1456404 - 06/14/10 12:31 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Chopinist]
Ken Knapp Online   content



Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 2278
Loc: Pennsylvania
RPD said something very wise a couple of posts back. He said we should all get back to work and let this topic drop off the radar. I agree. In fact, as well intentioned as I know it is, the topic is, in a way, a disservice to Bill.

Consider this. Bill is a tech with his own business. That, I would think, is his primary concern - making a living. The forum is something he chooses to participate in voluntarily. I don't know his reasons for doing so, but I would venture a guess that it is secondary to earning a living.

All of the posts in the forums are searchable via yahoo, google, etc. In fact, because this site hosts advertising, Frank B. makes sure that Piano World comes up as one of the first hits on search engines.

So lets say a potential client decides to check Bill out on the search engines before he makes a decision on whether to engage Bill's services. This topic comes up on the first page of a google search. I don't know how a potential client would view information contained in this topic. Maybe good, maybe a red flag. I don't know. But it is something that has been on my mind and I thought I should point it out.

Ken
_________________________
Ken

Piano Organ Depot
http://www.pianoorgandepot.com
Hammond Organ Technician
http://www.tonewheeltech.com
Vice President - MITA, International
http://www.mitatechs.org
http://www.facebook.com/MITATechs

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#1456414 - 06/14/10 12:45 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Ken Knapp]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4980
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Ken:

I respect your position as a Moderator. If you think it is time to stop posting to this Topic, then close it.

As far as public knowledge, I like the raw truth. Sometimes I will tune a piano in a public place and am not really happy with how the piano sounds, usually for reasons beyond my control. I leave my business card, anyway. I want to be known for the actual results, “warts and all”.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1456427 - 06/14/10 12:56 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: UnrightTooner]
Ken Knapp Online   content



Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 2278
Loc: Pennsylvania
Jeff,

I guess I just want to point out that we're not in a vacuum.

You're right. I could close the topic. I could make it disappear. But I am not sure either is the RIGHT thing to do. Besides, I have seen numerous times when a topic is closed or moved off forum that someone just starts a new one.

Ken
_________________________
Ken

Piano Organ Depot
http://www.pianoorgandepot.com
Hammond Organ Technician
http://www.tonewheeltech.com
Vice President - MITA, International
http://www.mitatechs.org
http://www.facebook.com/MITATechs

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#1456439 - 06/14/10 01:14 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Ken Knapp]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
I agree with Ken's sentiments, lets all let this drop off the radar. Whats done is done, hopefully it won't happen again. My wife just shared your comment Ken..."get back to work.." LOL I'm not fond of burnt toast in the morning, so back to work I go.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1456440 - 06/14/10 01:17 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Ken Knapp]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4980
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Ken:

Yes, and that is why I not only respect your position as Moderator, but also the job you do as one. I think you guys do excellent work.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1456477 - 06/14/10 02:18 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Ken Knapp]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: Ken Knapp
Jeff,

I guess I just want to point out that we're not in a vacuum.

You're right. I could close the topic. I could make it disappear. But I am not sure either is the RIGHT thing to do. Besides, I have seen numerous times when a topic is closed or moved off forum that someone just starts a new one.

Ken


I agree with you Ken. As long as it's going reasonably smoothly sometimes it's better to let these threads die a natural death. smile
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1456478 - 06/14/10 02:18 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: UnrightTooner]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Thanks Ken for your derail explanations - much appreciated, but do you really need advice from not-the-OP-or-a-moderator posters? (I mean in general re: a derailed thread)
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1456516 - 06/14/10 03:08 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: apple*]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: apple*
Originally Posted By: pppat
To be perfectly clear - and quite blunt - you do not make the forum, the dedicated participants do. Patrick


wrong.



No, true. The owner provides the opportunity, the members build the forum. Both important, of course - the creating of space, and what's filling it.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1456523 - 06/14/10 03:14 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: pppat]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: pppat
Originally Posted By: apple*
Originally Posted By: pppat
To be perfectly clear - and quite blunt - you do not make the forum, the dedicated participants do. Patrick


wrong.



No, true. The owner provides the opportunity, the members build the forum. Both important, of course - the creating of space, and what's filling it.


Patrick is spot on here. The owner of a forum will look like quite a fool without members to participate in discussion. I like to think of it as more of a reciprocation. The administrator/webmaster provides a place to discuss a certain thing(s). Members sign up to do that. And as long as the rules are fair, aboveboard, and applied where appropriate, everyone's happy.

I think PW is mostly like that, though I still feel strongly that the Forum Rules are not posted prominently enough.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1456539 - 06/14/10 03:37 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: UnrightTooner]
Michael Darnton Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 243
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Of course Mr. Baxter did not act inappropriately. This website is his possession to do with what he chooses.

In childhood we were supposed to learn the undesirability of being the child who takes his ball home because he doesn't like the way the game is going.
_________________________
http://darntonviolins.com and http://darntonhersh.com

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#1456561 - 06/14/10 04:24 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Michael Darnton]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2416
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Bill Bremmer is an excellent technician and piano tuner. His work on my piano was exemplary. I am not the only one that has posted this kind of praise.

I was extremely happy with his EBVT III temperament, and so started the "My Piano in EBVT III thread." The amount of interest and views in that thread, over 57,894 views as of today, proves that EBVT III has a solid place in the annals of piano temperaments.

Bill is due back on July 8. I look forward to it. smile

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#1456569 - 06/14/10 04:36 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Ken Knapp]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1766
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Ken Knapp
...I could close the topic. I could make it disappear. But I am not sure either is the RIGHT thing to do. Besides, I have seen numerous times when a topic is closed or moved off forum that someone just starts a new one.

I find it shocking that you would even CONSIDER such actions.

Kees

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#1456581 - 06/14/10 05:12 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: JBE]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: byronje3
Since I've allowed myself to get involved here, I feel it necessary to exit this fiasco with a bit of thoughtfulness.

Here's the bottom line.

Someone that you count on for your tuning education has been suspended for breaking the forum rules.

Out of frustration you tried to gather a group to your side of the issue to go up against the moderator/owner of PW. I posted some comments that you didn't like and so you attacked me rather vigorously.
Unfortunately, I've allowed myself to get involved in a problem that is really only yours. My mistake. Hurling insults around is not something I enjoy doing.

Good luck. Hopefully you'll get over it in time.


Reading this, I found myself unconsciously humming the lead theme of La Cage aux Folles. What a drama! smile

JDE, I'll try once more:

I do not count on Bill for my tuning education. I count on my curious nature, and an ongoing development through trial and error. I really like his piano temperament, and have started to use it as my main system for tuning the piano.

You really seem to be hooked on the idea of Bill as the powerful leader, with his learning disciples (= us newbies, amateurs, DIY's) uncritically following his every move. Well you're right about me not working 9-5 tuning x pianos all over the city. Exactly when did that become a quality hallmark?

I do, however, tune most concerts in our area as of now. You repeatedly defining yourself as a pro, labeling tuners interested in EBVT as amateurs or students - that's not even arrogant, it's a little bit rude, but actually it's mostly just plain stupid.

Furthermore, I didn't try to gather a group. I got frustrated because I felt the ban on Bill was unfair. I'm getting more and more convinced as I continue to read his antagonist's posts. If this forum is heavily moderated, fine, but it should go both ways. This I wrote about in an open letter, the first post of this thread. I did it all by myself, and I still stand behind that.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1456589 - 06/14/10 05:19 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: Michael Darnton]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21912
Loc: Oakland
We also learn the undesirability of having one's ball taken away by those who do not play fair.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1456591 - 06/14/10 05:24 PM Re: Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer [Re: BDB]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
... and I am getting tired of searching for all the balls kicked out into the woods. Getting exhausted here, and I WILL NOT take any accusations of derailing, because I started this darn thread wink
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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