Mr. Baxter (and to whom it might concern),

I've been informed that Bill Bremmer has been banned from the PW forum. Andy (nickname "Cinnamonbear") told me what has happened, and shared your conversation with me.

Let me put this in another perspective. Please forgive anything that might be due to my Northern European frankness, and just read the best into my words.

You do have a responsibility, probably more so than you think. You run something resembling a democratic forum, yet you seem to resort to making some pretty arbitrary choices.

People contribute. I do, others too. This is what makes your forum worthwhile reading. There should be different opinions, and sometimes we cross the lines. I fear the moment when we fear the moderation of Frank Baxter enough not to speak out.

There should be a balance between sincerity and dedication on one hand, and possible trespasses on the other hand. I have never seen such a dedicated participant as Bill Bremmer, and you banning him hurts me. This, because most of his critics do not contribute at all - they just bring negative energy into the forum, tearing down, trying to take the edge of the sincere joy of others. Is this really what you want?

I doubt you can se the whole picture. Can't, and won't. Yes, your choice is easier. As is getting rid of any annoyances in everyday life. But beware - there will be many yet to come, and are you sure where to draw the line?

As a quite active participant in the politics scene in my country, let me assure you - there is absolutely nothing good coming out of this. Fear, prudence and streamlinedness - this no way to run any public forum worth its place on the net.

The least you can do, if you choose to imperiously ban anyone, is to speak out loud and clear, on the forum. To be perfectly clear - and quite blunt - you do not make the forum, the dedicated participants do. If you choose to ban one of us, please make clear why. That is the least you can do, because behind every 52.000+ member there is someone who deserves due respect.

Regards,
Patrick

that would be a great loss. What in the world happened?

What??????

Bill Bremmer's posts here are the only reason I started participating here anyways. No wonder he didn't comment on some recent issue I brought up.

Bill Bremmer's articles on his website and his extensive posts here are the only reason that I am now quite confident I'll be able to pass the RPT exam not too far in the future. More often than not when I google some issue about tuning and temperament I end up with a Bill Bremmer article from this forum.

Apparently no good deed goes unpunished.

Whose bright idea is this, to ban him??

Kees

Pianoworld is coming off the bookmark bar.

I can't believe it! What happened? Bill's been on here for years. Maybe he's controversial at times, but what's wrong with that? If rubbing some people the wrong way is enough to get banned then there should be many more to follow. Is there a secret police or gestapo we have to worry about now?

I remember "Larry" from years ago. I can't believe Bill deserves the same fate.

Is this really true? I've learned a lot from Mr. Bremmer. I've really appreciated his contributions. Could someone please verify or deny that he's been banned?

Hmmmmm....Bill will be missed. I suppose there is some liability in posting publicly reasons for banning? Bill, we will catch you on the PTG forums.

Thanks for your opinions folks, perhaps you'd like the facts before you jump to conclusions.

Here is exactly what I replied to cinnamonbear:
==================================
Andy,

Thank you for taking the time to write.

We do not take banning lightly, nor are the decisions typically made on one incident.
Bill is not permanently banned, only on time-out (at least at this point).
It's unfortunate that he was in the middle of a discussion you found helpful, but that does not excuse flouting the board rules, being outright rude to some members, or sending me a PM that I felt was inappropriate.

The fact that he is knowledgeable and contributes to a number of discussions does not give him free reign to do what he pleases on our forums.

We have had other knowledgeable members in the past who have been permanently banned because they refused to follow the guidelines, and chose to ignore repeated warnings and time-outs.

Running a board this large is not as easy as it looks. We have to balance the desire to educate and entertain against what is considered acceptable behavior by the majority of our 52,000+ members from around the world.

We do the best we can.

Best,
Frank B
========================================
I'm sorry if some of you don't agree with the decision, but it stands.

OK, quickly before I get banned too for sending an inappropriate PM. Below what I just send Frank by PM.
Kees
----------------------------------------
Dear Frank,

First of all thanks for hosting this forum. As an aspiring piano technician this forum has been about the equivalent of taking an online course in piano technology for me.

As with most forums, 90% of the posts are of course superficial chit-chat. On the technicians corner I would say about half of the remaining 10% posts containing serious information come from Bill Bremmer. He is by far the most prolific technical writer here and his posts are usually so well composed that they are ready to be pasted into a publication or instruction manual.

How you could even consider banning such a distinguished person is beyond my comprehension. I have been participating in online forums for well over 20 years, and there is nothing in Bill's posts that could be a conceivable reason for banning by any standards.

I hope that this is all a mistake, and we will see Bill back shortly. If not there will be many angry and disappointed people besides me, not to mention newcomers that don't know what they will be missing.

Regards,
Kees

Yes, I'll verify that this is the exact msg I got forwarded from Andy (AKA Cinnamonbear).

Glad to see this out in the open.

@Frank: What conclusions are there to jump towards? And, just to make it even more clear to the readers of this forum, is this decision your own (as in yours alone), or is there some kind of board? If so, how many of you? Would just hate to see this trailing down to one person alone, influenced by whoever.

And @Frank: excuse me, but if you really want to distinguish your open forum from a real one, look at this line of yours:

"Bill is not permanently banned, only on time-out (at least at this point)."

Again - who decides? You, or others included? What do you decide? Time-out is vague as can be. What would bring this into a permanent ban?

C'mon... pls say that you have thought this through.

Well, I'm certainly not going to second guess anybody; its hard to run a board like this...but all I can say is that I hope this resolves favorably, and includes all of the parties. I've PM's Bill the same thing: I can't say I agree with some of his views (and I've even been on the receiving end once or twice!) but he's still an important part of the greater family of piano technicians, and I've learned from his work.

Goodwill is so important, all around. I hope this resolves soon.

RPD

Nothing to resolve. Bill was given one month off the forum. The forum will give him his access back when the time out expires.
It's automatic.

Ken

@Ken: by whom?

Stupidity has no bounds.

Kees

Frank Baxter, the owner of Piano World, did the actual banning.

Patrick, Bill is fortunate to have a friend such as you. But I would venture a guess that you've never been on the receiving end of Bill's sarcasm when he decides to go after you.

Nobody gets suspended on here for disagreeing with people. They do get suspended and sometimes banned for name calling and being mean to others.

The issue with Bill was discussed between Frank and the moderators before Bill was banned. About a year ago Bill was warned for the very same behavior. He chose to ignore the warning. That time he also got a month's suspension.

This time Bill was also warned because of his behavior towards another member. He once again chose to ignore the warning. So again he has received a one month suspension. In his response to the warning he even invited us to ban him from the forum.

Had Bill shown even a hint of being sorry about his treatment of another member, you all would be sitting here swapping tuning stories. Instead he decided he'd rather be suspended.

Bill is fortunate. Our policy is usually to permanently ban a person once they have received a warning, ignored it, and then been suspended. But Frank cut him some slack.

Patrick, thanks for your concern. Bill will be back. And none of this occurred without discussion of the matter between Frank Baxter and the moderators.

Ken

As much as I am interested in Mr. Bremmers's work, I must agree with PW's decision.

I've been reading this forum a long time, as many techs I suspect do, while never posting.

I wish Mr. Bremmer to take this break with peace and serenity, only to come back more eloquent.

We all have to live difficult situations, there is no perfect temperament.

Good night folks.

Jean

@Ken: You're right, I've never had to deal with any such from Bill. Maybe because I respect him just the way he is. I like characters, and my musical background might have shaped me this way. I'm not particularly fond of namby-pamby people, I'd rather deal with dedicated, passionate persons.

Still, I think that you've might underestimated the ramifications of the ban. Your #1 visited thread in the tech forum right now (leaving the paging aside) is a direct result of Bill's dedication. Needless to say, his participation is vital. This discussion will in no way wait out an imposed ban, it will find it's own grooves (happening as we speak).

I am truly sorry that this has to take place outside PW and thus constitute a crippling blow to the (up until now) admirable diversity of your site, but you do not leave those of us interested in Bill's tuning philosophy with much of a choice.

I've always been critical of this phenomenon in the "2nd coming of internet" - that is, the social forums. Play democracy, excecute dictatorship. We all have to learn the hard way, and this is your tricky road. Hope you come out alright.

Jerry Groot is the subject of the most visited topic in this area. Nothing else is even close.

I've had some good advice via PM's from Bill. Though I've no acquaintance with his forum demeanor and wouldn't question Frank/moderators on this specific incidence I do feel the forum is a weird space. Banning is arbitrary - I've clicked on the site to find myself suspended for something I felt was quite innocuous. The real problem are all the anonymous, unknown to the 'defendant', notifications (intimations of an informer state). Why can't they somehow surface first - to all?

In response to my latest post I had the following PM encounter with the moderator:

-------------BEGIN PM:------------------------------------------
Subject: Stupidity has no bounds?

I beg your pardon?

Ken

--

Look it up if you can't figure out what it means.

Kees
--
I know what it means. Are you looking to keep Bill company or what?

Ken

-------------END PM:------------------------------------------

Ken: If it makes you feel like a big important guy go ahead and ban me too.

Your banning decision was stupid. Your response to the complaints over it are even more stupid. To threaten me in a PM is even stupider. Having someone with that attitude as moderator is also stupid, but hardly your fault.

There you go, now you can ban me too.

Bye everyone, it was nice while it lasted!

Kees

I don't think moderator bashing gets anybody anywhere - play the ball not the man!

I would like to say that I would comment more in this area were it not for Mr. Bremmer's attacks, which seem to come on as if he had gone into a drunken rage. I have better things to do than to deal with someone like that all the time, so I choose to stay away from him.

The tiny writing at the end of posts that indicate material was edited by moderator should indicate to you that something innapropriate was removed from a post (including the entire post sometimes). Search Bills' threads and you will find these type of edits scattered about. Sometimes it is for transgressing the rules of forum posting, sometimes for legal reasons to protect members or the forum itself. Most often it is in response to widespread complaints, and rightfully so. Most all forums operate under these practices so I doubt there is a safe forum cave to hide in and continue with unnaceptable behavior.

From time to time, most of us engage in "rhetoric and opinion unfettered by the thought process", some more than others.

It's unfortunate that someone like Bill can't seem to resist the ad hominem attacks on his colleagues, many of which seem to be directed at people who don't agree with him on one topic or another.

Just my observation and opinion...

On private property, enforcement of rules (and even determination of what constitutes a violation) can be selective and arbitrary. It may not be fair, but it doesn't have to be fair; it can be as autocratic—or democratic—as the owner desires.

There's no resource on the internet comparable to this one for piano-related information and entertainment (perhaps unfortunately), and most contributors have far too much fun here to sacrifice their participation for the sake of any nobler principles like fairness, transparency or free speech. It's only "free" in the sense of charging you no money, and most people obviously feel that's a fair price to pay.

I would agree with this statement, as I have been the recipient of Bremmer’s attacks on previous occasions.

This place is privately owned and operated. The owner and the moderators administer the rules and set policy. The responsibility to adhere to those rules is up to the individual members.

In this place there are two kinds of people; those who cooperate and those who do not. The ones who cooperate are posting their opinions and experience in this trade. The ones who do not cooperate are reading only.

Membership here is a privilege, not a right.

When a member posts material that could be considered actionable, should they have the opportunity to continue posting? Apparently not in the owners book ,or the rule book, or the policy book for this forum, so get used to it and fast.....

Maybe it's bordering on sacrilege in this forum, but I'll say it anyway: it's only pianos, folks. It's not a war (though that's not always evident), it's not a hurricane, an oil slick, or any other life or death situation. It's pianos. Ranting, belittling, and otherwise blatantly crossing lines when it comes to common decency are unnecessary within the discussions here.

Maybe another forum should be included: "Piano Free-For-All Forum," where all the gloves come off...

The choices are not "arbitrary", they are defined in the Sticky thread on Forum Behavior. If your lacking the details to make a proper criticism, perhaps you should refrain from what appears as a poorly informed one by your own admission.

If there are more posts to come like Bills then you should be aware that the EBVT (Equal Beating Vanquishment Treatment) spares no one and applies to all who transgress the rules. Feel free to try though.

There are several things good that come of this, contrary to what you think Pppat. 1/ PW shows it has a backbone to back up their warnings. 2/ (Some)People will learn to be respective of other peoples right to disagree with them; others will post without fear of being libelled, bullied or taunted, name called or unfairly labeled. 3/ Those who disagree with this can move on to annoy people in other forums. 4/ Thin skinned people who are sensative to negative criticism will not post.

As for PW or Mr. Baxter not "making" the forum...without the forum you just have people looking for a forum, so many of us appreciate and have respect for him and PW. Posts are moderator edited or removed with reasons stated below it. If it is deemed offensive or injurious, it says so on the edit note. The idea is to remove it before it gets cached on a search engine forever leaving little or no chance of removing it in the future. The litmus test for everyone posting should be that if you can't back up something that appears to be, or is injurious to other peoples reputations, its best to not write it and wise vent your anger in some other way.

If you have any more crocidile tears to shed on behalf of Bill, Pppat, a box of Kleenex might come in handy along with this..

http://ken_ashford.typepad.com/.a/6a00d834515b2069e201053605c23c970c-800wi

Here is what I wrote to Frank:



I have more to say about this, which I will put into a separate post, shortly.