Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Open letter to Mr. Baxter regarding the ban of Bill Bremmer

In response to my latest post I had the following PM encounter with the moderator:

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Subject: Stupidity has no bounds?

I beg your pardon?

Ken

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Look it up if you can't figure out what it means.

Kees
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I know what it means. Are you looking to keep Bill company or what?

Ken

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Ken: If it makes you feel like a big important guy go ahead and ban me too.

Your banning decision was stupid. Your response to the complaints over it are even more stupid. To threaten me in a PM is even stupider. Having someone with that attitude as moderator is also stupid, but hardly your fault.

There you go, now you can ban me too.

Bye everyone, it was nice while it lasted!

Kees

I don't think moderator bashing gets anybody anywhere - play the ball not the man!

I would like to say that I would comment more in this area were it not for Mr. Bremmer's attacks, which seem to come on as if he had gone into a drunken rage. I have better things to do than to deal with someone like that all the time, so I choose to stay away from him.

The tiny writing at the end of posts that indicate material was edited by moderator should indicate to you that something innapropriate was removed from a post (including the entire post sometimes). Search Bills' threads and you will find these type of edits scattered about. Sometimes it is for transgressing the rules of forum posting, sometimes for legal reasons to protect members or the forum itself. Most often it is in response to widespread complaints, and rightfully so. Most all forums operate under these practices so I doubt there is a safe forum cave to hide in and continue with unnaceptable behavior.

From time to time, most of us engage in "rhetoric and opinion unfettered by the thought process", some more than others.

It's unfortunate that someone like Bill can't seem to resist the ad hominem attacks on his colleagues, many of which seem to be directed at people who don't agree with him on one topic or another.

Just my observation and opinion...

On private property, enforcement of rules (and even determination of what constitutes a violation) can be selective and arbitrary. It may not be fair, but it doesn't have to be fair; it can be as autocratic—or democratic—as the owner desires.

There's no resource on the internet comparable to this one for piano-related information and entertainment (perhaps unfortunately), and most contributors have far too much fun here to sacrifice their participation for the sake of any nobler principles like fairness, transparency or free speech. It's only "free" in the sense of charging you no money, and most people obviously feel that's a fair price to pay.

I would agree with this statement, as I have been the recipient of Bremmer’s attacks on previous occasions.

This place is privately owned and operated. The owner and the moderators administer the rules and set policy. The responsibility to adhere to those rules is up to the individual members.

In this place there are two kinds of people; those who cooperate and those who do not. The ones who cooperate are posting their opinions and experience in this trade. The ones who do not cooperate are reading only.

Membership here is a privilege, not a right.

When a member posts material that could be considered actionable, should they have the opportunity to continue posting? Apparently not in the owners book ,or the rule book, or the policy book for this forum, so get used to it and fast.....

Maybe it's bordering on sacrilege in this forum, but I'll say it anyway: it's only pianos, folks. It's not a war (though that's not always evident), it's not a hurricane, an oil slick, or any other life or death situation. It's pianos. Ranting, belittling, and otherwise blatantly crossing lines when it comes to common decency are unnecessary within the discussions here.

Maybe another forum should be included: "Piano Free-For-All Forum," where all the gloves come off...

The choices are not "arbitrary", they are defined in the Sticky thread on Forum Behavior. If your lacking the details to make a proper criticism, perhaps you should refrain from what appears as a poorly informed one by your own admission.

If there are more posts to come like Bills then you should be aware that the EBVT (Equal Beating Vanquishment Treatment) spares no one and applies to all who transgress the rules. Feel free to try though.

There are several things good that come of this, contrary to what you think Pppat. 1/ PW shows it has a backbone to back up their warnings. 2/ (Some)People will learn to be respective of other peoples right to disagree with them; others will post without fear of being libelled, bullied or taunted, name called or unfairly labeled. 3/ Those who disagree with this can move on to annoy people in other forums. 4/ Thin skinned people who are sensative to negative criticism will not post.

As for PW or Mr. Baxter not "making" the forum...without the forum you just have people looking for a forum, so many of us appreciate and have respect for him and PW. Posts are moderator edited or removed with reasons stated below it. If it is deemed offensive or injurious, it says so on the edit note. The idea is to remove it before it gets cached on a search engine forever leaving little or no chance of removing it in the future. The litmus test for everyone posting should be that if you can't back up something that appears to be, or is injurious to other peoples reputations, its best to not write it and wise vent your anger in some other way.

If you have any more crocidile tears to shed on behalf of Bill, Pppat, a box of Kleenex might come in handy along with this..

http://ken_ashford.typepad.com/.a/6a00d834515b2069e201053605c23c970c-800wi

Here is what I wrote to Frank:



I have more to say about this, which I will put into a separate post, shortly.

This is exactly the kind of derogatory baiting that Bill has put up with ad nauseum. Should not Emmery be banned as well? Or has this type of rhetoric not crossed the line, yet?

--Andy Strong

By his own actions and responses to the administration, Bremmer has brought this on himself in no uncertain terms.

Derogatory comments, while unfortunate, are not the same as slanderous comments that have no basis in fact and cannot be substantiated.

Interesting the note that last time this happened there was a pledge thread developed that the posting technicians of the day signed up to. Everyone agreed to continue, with respect and consideration open to all. In other words we all agreed to disagree on certain subjects that are inflammatory here.

Everyone included signed that thread with the exception of one person. Tell me who that was??

Well, Emmery, your style of writing in the forum is just as rude as anything you complain about. How come you're still around?

BDB, that's what I said, too… should probably have written 'leaving the "paging Jerry Groot" thread aside'

First of all Andy, "rhetoric" is not something bad, in and of itself, its simply a way to move an audience and communicate effectively. Its done by near everyone, everywhere. It is not something we get banned for here. Secondly, what I stated was a fact, if you buck the rules or challenge the administrators here to kick you, they may very well comply, (with my full endorsement I might add). Lastly, my comments were not derogatory baiting, I simply stated to Pppat I have no sympathy towards someone who has been diciplined for a transgression they have been warned about in the past.

Keep in mind that the number of views reflects those of us who click on some of these topics just to mark them as read. That was what I started to do with the EBVT topic once the people there began getting vicious after I said I did not like one of the samples.

Well it seems the moderator decided to send me an insulting PM instead of banning me, so I'm still here.

Emmery, I first thought you were kidding me but you're right I found such an edit. First time in 20 years I've encountered such [expletive deleted] practices.

Kees

I don't know Bill Bremmer. But dudes, this isn't a democracy. Want to get nuts? Create your own forum and your own rules.

Lots of people use public forums to vent and displace anger that should be directed elsewhere. I was/am guilty of this as well.

As far as moderators go, I don't think these guys get paid. And ... even if they were paid, the job really sucks.

The way I see it is, anyone who doesn't like the rules here can simply leave. Perhaps there should be another forum on Piano World called Piano Technicians Instruction. PW is not a school with instructors. The technicians forum should be where professional technicians can feel free to communicate with one another as colleagues about piano tuning and technical work. I don't think that it should be a place for self appointed instructors to teach beginners or Do It Yourselfers how to tune. For some, it seems to be a place where 'mutual feel good back patting' goes on between student and teacher. "You tell me I'm good and I'll tell you that you're doing great (whether you really are or not) and we can both feel good about what we do".

No one is saying that the person in question can no longer work with those who he is apparently helping to learn tuning.
Perhaps he can have his own blog or forum where the rules can be adjusted to fit the necessary style of communication.

Kees,

Since you seem to like quoting PM's on open forum, I'll quote my "insulting" reply to you for all to see, rather than leave it up to imagination. I said:

"You're a classy guy"

That was in response to you calling me stupid, and reiterating it in both PM's and open forum. I chose to ask you about your remarks in private rather than risk your embarrassment in public. Apparently you don't care.

If you wish to discuss how the forums are run, that's ok. If you wish to express displeasure, it's fine. But meanness and name calling and making innuendo about "insults" is not.

Yes, this is a warning, posted in the venue of your choice.

Ken